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Battlecruiser and Battleship Buff

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2014-02-19 11:24:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
I'm fairly sure that's because you don't actually know how to fit megathrons, and are trying to compare a T3 ship with a covert ops cloak to a T1 battleship you've not put all the guns on and have all the penalties a cloak brings...

Lol.

[Megathron, Generic Solo]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Damage Control II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Shadow Serpentis Stasis Webifier
True Sansha Warp Scrambler
100MN Microwarpdrive II

Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Neutron Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Improved 'Guise' Cloaking Device II

Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I


Warrior II x5
Hammerhead II x5

This is something I'd use. Perhaps not the best setup but it works for me.


Fail.... HORRIBLE fit. Then you come complain about battleships when you do stuff like that.

Lol. Says the Minnie frig and cruiser pilot :) Please enlighten me with your own personal solo Mega fit... You might want to get some experience before you comment or criticize those who know through experience what works and doesn't work.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-02-19 11:26:11 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually Prince of Wales remained out of range and shadowed them until another ship could take over, and Hood took a lucky hit (Amazing how often that happened against BS/BC's). The armour plan for Hood should have been OK at the range of engagement. They did slow down the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen fleet long enough for the Ark Royals teeny tiny biplanes to hit with torpedoes...



Price of whales was seriously hit and lot all its combat capability.


both the hood and the PoW were nto match to the bismarck at close range (altough were superior to it at longer range, due to the decisiosn both sides made on the armor layouts)


All true but as far as I remember the loss of guns capability was mainly down to malfunctions from not having a chance to run a full shakedown. The Hood was never intended to be a match for a BS and was intended to outgun or outrun. I have an idea though from discussing this.

Whilst it is true that the RN BS's couldn't sink Bismarck with direct fire and numerous torpedoes they did completely destroy the ship as a combat vessel (no offensive capability, no engine power, no comms)

It could be interesting in Eve if wrecking hits applied damage directly to modules in a similar way to overheating...Sure you can take lots of hits but if you start losing your tank, guns, prop mods etc you will need to repair or withdraw sharpish or be left a smoking hulk waiting on the whim of the enemy...

Not sure how this could be calculated though...maybe some sort of shot mass to ship mass ratio...so a small hybrid charge wouldn't wreck a BS turret, but a BS sized round would have a good chance of wrecking something on a frig with just shrapnel...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#83 - 2014-02-19 11:40:56 UTC
What set the German navy apart from the English was fire control. They were far superior in terms of training and methods in regards to fire control.

In the battle Bismarck sank the Hood and disabled the PoW but was only hit 3 times in total.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#84 - 2014-02-19 12:05:58 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
What set the German navy apart from the English was fire control. They were far superior in terms of training and methods in regards to fire control.

In the battle Bismarck sank the Hood and disabled the PoW but was only hit 3 times in total.


True enough although weather conditions favoured the Germans in a rear chase situation such as at the Denmark Straits engagement as the spray from the sea clouded the British rangefinding gear, and even then one of the 3 hits ultimately allowed the Bismarck to be caught by slowing it down for a while. The aim of the British wasn't to destroy the Bismarck in one battle (though the admiralty seemed to believe that possible from ships not designed to do so) but to stop Bismarck reaching the Atlantic to perform commerce raids.

In the larger context the PoW triggered the events that led to that with a 'wrecking' hit diminishing Bismarcks abilities albeit temporarily. Bismarck was a beast of a ship and took a combined fleet to stop it and I would like to see the same here. A BS in a fleet should be able to act as the anchor and provide deadly fire support to the cruisers workhorses. Right now the BS seams to be relegated to mission running, or seen as a juicy morsel for the cruisers of the enemy fleet!

The ability of wrecking hits to damage or destroy modules would bring another element to fleet battles...imagine the sudden tactical shift needed by a tackle on his way in who loses his mwd to shrapnel damage...,or the main dps boats when they start losing turrets...
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2014-02-19 12:07:45 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Actually Prince of Wales remained out of range and shadowed them until another ship could take over, and Hood took a lucky hit (Amazing how often that happened against BS/BC's). The armour plan for Hood should have been OK at the range of engagement. They did slow down the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen fleet long enough for the Ark Royals teeny tiny biplanes to hit with torpedoes...



Price of whales was seriously hit and lot all its combat capability.


both the hood and the PoW were nto match to the bismarck at close range (altough were superior to it at longer range, due to the decisiosn both sides made on the armor layouts)


All true but as far as I remember the loss of guns capability was mainly down to malfunctions from not having a chance to run a full shakedown. The Hood was never intended to be a match for a BS and was intended to outgun or outrun. I have an idea though from discussing this.

Whilst it is true that the RN BS's couldn't sink Bismarck with direct fire and numerous torpedoes they did completely destroy the ship as a combat vessel (no offensive capability, no engine power, no comms)

It could be interesting in Eve if wrecking hits applied damage directly to modules in a similar way to overheating...Sure you can take lots of hits but if you start losing your tank, guns, prop mods etc you will need to repair or withdraw sharpish or be left a smoking hulk waiting on the whim of the enemy...

Not sure how this could be calculated though...maybe some sort of shot mass to ship mass ratio...so a small hybrid charge wouldn't wreck a BS turret, but a BS sized round would have a good chance of wrecking something on a frig with just shrapnel...



The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2014-02-19 12:23:10 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:



The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.


Again this adds to my suggestion of wrecking dmg directly affecting modules...could certainly make protracted engagements in large fleets more interesting by introducing a random element...

PoW was ordered to follow the cruisers tailing Bismarck to support them in the event of Bismarck turning to engage them so I'm assuming the main guns were brought back online and the secondary fire control still functioned to some degree...
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2014-02-19 12:37:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:



The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.


Again this adds to my suggestion of wrecking dmg directly affecting modules...could certainly make protracted engagements in large fleets more interesting by introducing a random element...

PoW was ordered to follow the cruisers tailing Bismarck to support them in the event of Bismarck turning to engage them so I'm assuming the main guns were brought back online and the secondary fire control still functioned to some degree...


For small gang work the primary problem is speed. I agree battleships should be incorporated into small / medium gangs. A good fleet should consist of battleships, battlecruisers, cruisers and tackle.

Currently its really not necessary, and a pretty big nerf in terms of mobility to include battleships and even battlecruisers in gangs. Why CCP thought it was a good idea to further distance battleships and battlecruisers from the smaller ships is very puzzling.

Historically both battleships and battlecruisers were capable of at least the cruising speed of the escorting cruisers and destroyers. I think a lot of people think battleships were slow because a lot of battleships in WWII were from WWI while most of the destroyers were more modern.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#88 - 2014-02-19 12:43:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.


That hit caused casualties but it did not significantly affect the combat capability of POW. After Denmark Strait, POW re-engaged Bismarck twice. Bismarck didn't inflict any serious damage on POW, the loss of turret output was all self-inflicted, the complex turret interlocks jamming from lack of crew experience on board a ship rushed to sea before she was ready.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2014-02-19 13:17:46 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.


That hit caused casualties but it did not significantly affect the combat capability of POW. After Denmark Strait, POW re-engaged Bismarck twice. Bismarck didn't inflict any serious damage on POW, the loss of turret output was all self-inflicted, the complex turret interlocks jamming from lack of crew experience on board a ship rushed to sea before she was ready.


Quote:
Addressed Admiralty, C. in C. Home Fleet.
XXXXXXXX. IMMEDIATE.
Following received from H.M.S. PRINCE OF WALES Addressed C.S. 1 begins.
A and B turrets in action. Y turret 2 guns in action. About 400 tons water in ship mainly abaft after bulkhead. Compartment above steering compartment flooded but steering gear in action. Estimated best speed 27 knots. T.O.O. 0720/24 Ends.

Main armament control undamaged 9 main armament guns in action. Secondary armament guns in action Considerable damage to bridge. Both forward high angle directors out of action. About 60 tons water in ship mainly aft from 2 or more hits about water line. Estimated maximum speed 26 knots. Oil fuel made readily available 1600 tons.

Summary of damage. Armament and controls Both forward H.A. directors disabled. Port circuit cut and pedestal canted and strained. Starboard director possibly repairable by ship's staff. After (corrupt group) office destroyed. One "Walrus" aircraft damaged and jettisoned. Both port S.L. sights destroyed. After half of compass platform severely damaged.
Hull. Following extensively damaged. Forward H.A. director supports. After funnel punctured approximately 10 new plates required. Starboard crane xxxxxxxx wrecked. Air intake to X Boiler Room severely damaged. One Boiler Room Fan Impeller and Oil Cooler damaged. M and Q coils damaged. Underwater damage follows after examination

Preliminary examination of underwater damage reveals three holes. One hole at 274 ¼ star four feet above lower deck two holes between 307 and 317 star immediately above turtle deck. Three brackets and boundary angle supporting turtle deck distorted. The middle deck in the vicinity of these three holes is perforated by splinters. It has not been possible yet to investigate damage 184/194 star below armour.


The above contained in messages sent to the admiralty regarding the damage to the PoW. Its obvious the ship took extensive damage and didn't withdraw simply due to malfunction of its turret control.

Link here

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2014-02-19 13:29:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The above contained in messages sent to the admiralty regarding the damage to the PoW. Its obvious the ship took extensive damage and didn't withdraw simply due to malfunction of its turret control.

Link here


PoW still followed after Bismarck and engaged twice more so the damage that looks severe in black and white didn't stop the vessel being a fighting force.. Which highlights the fact that eve is a simplified version of combat since RL combat ships of any real size were usually pretty hard to sink. Here a bunch of destroyer can easily eat a BS. It seams a shame that BC's and BS's are now niche ships for specific purposes, I'd prefer to see them back in small fleets. They should inspire fear and respect not glee at the potential killmail
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2014-02-19 13:40:52 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
What set the German navy apart from the English was fire control. They were far superior in terms of training and methods in regards to fire control.

In the battle Bismarck sank the Hood and disabled the PoW but was only hit 3 times in total.



not so much training. More the far superior optics. The same optics that allowed their tanks to have range aquisition precise enough to hit on the first shot. Rangefinders demand extremely precide ptics. And until nowadays, germans and japanese are the best in optics

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#92 - 2014-02-19 14:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Gypsio III wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
The fact that the PoW took a direct hit at the compass platform (by the bridge) also sealed the remaining fight capability it had at the end of the fight.


That hit caused casualties but it did not significantly affect the combat capability of POW. After Denmark Strait, POW re-engaged Bismarck twice. Bismarck didn't inflict any serious damage on POW, the loss of turret output was all self-inflicted, the complex turret interlocks jamming from lack of crew experience on board a ship rushed to sea before she was ready.


Quote:
Addressed Admiralty, C. in C. Home Fleet.
XXXXXXXX. IMMEDIATE.
Following received from H.M.S. PRINCE OF WALES Addressed C.S. 1 begins.
A and B turrets in action. Y turret 2 guns in action. About 400 tons water in ship mainly abaft after bulkhead. Compartment above steering compartment flooded but steering gear in action. Estimated best speed 27 knots. T.O.O. 0720/24 Ends.


Nine guns in action, main directors operational, capable of 27 knots, a small amount of flooding.

Those are the salient facts, and they describe an operational battleship. As indicated by POW's decision to re-engage twice. Everything else in the report is just fluff.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#93 - 2014-02-19 14:45:09 UTC
could a moderator change the topic title to history lessons?

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2014-02-19 14:49:53 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The above contained in messages sent to the admiralty regarding the damage to the PoW. Its obvious the ship took extensive damage and didn't withdraw simply due to malfunction of its turret control.

Link here


PoW still followed after Bismarck and engaged twice more so the damage that looks severe in black and white didn't stop the vessel being a fighting force.. Which highlights the fact that eve is a simplified version of combat since RL combat ships of any real size were usually pretty hard to sink. Here a bunch of destroyer can easily eat a BS. It seams a shame that BC's and BS's are now niche ships for specific purposes, I'd prefer to see them back in small fleets. They should inspire fear and respect not glee at the potential killmail


.. yeah.. but you think the PoW would do if the bismark turned around and tried to engage? At the state the PoW was they news they were no match and were trying to delay and shadow the BM more than do any serious fighting. They knew that at extreme ranges they were almost invulnerable to 15 inch rounds.. but hitting at that range was a gamble anyway.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2014-02-19 15:50:22 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The above contained in messages sent to the admiralty regarding the damage to the PoW. Its obvious the ship took extensive damage and didn't withdraw simply due to malfunction of its turret control.

Link here


PoW still followed after Bismarck and engaged twice more so the damage that looks severe in black and white didn't stop the vessel being a fighting force.. Which highlights the fact that eve is a simplified version of combat since RL combat ships of any real size were usually pretty hard to sink. Here a bunch of destroyer can easily eat a BS. It seams a shame that BC's and BS's are now niche ships for specific purposes, I'd prefer to see them back in small fleets. They should inspire fear and respect not glee at the potential killmail

I 100% agree with what you're saying regarding EVE's battleships.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2014-02-19 16:03:58 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


.. yeah.. but you think the PoW would do if the bismark turned around and tried to engage? At the state the PoW was they news they were no match and were trying to delay and shadow the BM more than do any serious fighting. They knew that at extreme ranges they were almost invulnerable to 15 inch rounds.. but hitting at that range was a gamble anyway.


PoW would have re-engaged as per orders as it did twice thereafter and extreme range was often worse for hits as the plunging shellfire had a better chance at penetrating the deck armour.(at least from British guns optimized for Atlantic duties with heavier slower shells and higher firing angles)

More on topic though this RL engagement shows the interplay between cruisers, BC's and BS's...the Bismarck/Prinz Eugen group were an immensely powerful force with just 1 cruiser and 1 BS.. Equally the Hood/PoW force of BC and heavy cruiser dfid enough to delay Bismarck enough for a combined fleet to destroy it. I would like BC's and BS's here to occupy the same kind of tactical space. A supported BS should be dangerous to everything in range
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-02-19 18:19:56 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


The above contained in messages sent to the admiralty regarding the damage to the PoW. Its obvious the ship took extensive damage and didn't withdraw simply due to malfunction of its turret control.

Link here


PoW still followed after Bismarck and engaged twice more so the damage that looks severe in black and white didn't stop the vessel being a fighting force.. Which highlights the fact that eve is a simplified version of combat since RL combat ships of any real size were usually pretty hard to sink. Here a bunch of destroyer can easily eat a BS. It seams a shame that BC's and BS's are now niche ships for specific purposes, I'd prefer to see them back in small fleets. They should inspire fear and respect not glee at the potential killmail

I 100% agree with what you're saying regarding EVE's battleships.



I agree here too. It might be better if battleships were treated as a group of smaller ships glued together from the mechanics point of view. For example, a battleship could consist of 6 cruiser-sized sections, each of which must be destroyed to fully disable and therefore destroy the ship.

Battleships are currently a laughing stock in a small engagement. Slow to arrive, essentially immobile on grid, slow to lock, quick to die.

It should take 4 cruisers to kill a battleship, at great peril to themselves. not one.

And the moros should get its drones back...


Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#98 - 2014-02-19 18:21:37 UTC
Posting of kill reports is not allowed in this forum. Post and related quotes of post have been removed.

Forum rule 34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-02-19 18:35:57 UTC
While I do believe this is a good idea (siri other scifi genres 'big' ship performance), I believe it's not going quite far enough. Increasing destroyer tank to that of a cruiser would be ideal, but the material cost should be upped a bit. Battleships and capitals should get an extra set of offensive slots for automatic PD weaponry, as you would see on a modern-day aircraft carrier or other sea-going vessel.
It is idiotic from a military standpoint to have your strongest capital ships be almost completely vulnerable to attack from smaller vessels.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-02-19 19:22:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Catherine Laartii wrote:
While I do believe this is a good idea (siri other scifi genres 'big' ship performance), I believe it's not going quite far enough. Increasing destroyer tank to that of a cruiser would be ideal, but the material cost should be upped a bit. Battleships and capitals should get an extra set of offensive slots for automatic PD weaponry, as you would see on a modern-day aircraft carrier or other sea-going vessel.
It is idiotic from a military standpoint to have your strongest capital ships be almost completely vulnerable to attack from smaller vessels.


I agree with the sentiment but in game terms it would destroy balance. In eve terms BS should be lethal with point defence performed by escort fleet. Here would be the perfect role for T2 escort destroyers to screen the BS whilst it nails the enemy heavies one by one.

I think the lower ship class balance is generally ok for frig/dessies but cruisers have been overcompensated now pushing BC and BS into relative obscurity.

This also happened in RL with the arrival of aircraft carriers though there are arguments that there woud once again be a role for BS as fleet command as anti-ship missiles would barely dent 16" thick armour and 15-16" rail guns could deliver 9-12 1 ton charges with pinpoint accuracy over 100's of kilometres...

For game balance I think its a bad idea to let such great ships fall of the radar literally, they should bring more fun and real challenge in engagements...