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The Wasted Skill(s) of Ore Processing?
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Strot Harn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2014-02-18 23:06:43 UTC
Working on my spreadsheets and looking at the value of selling raw ore versus refining it and selling the minerals. In almost every single case refining the rock is a loosing proposition.

I'm looking at the equations with everything maxed to level 5 and still refining is coming out at an isk loss (except for maybe one or two rocks). It's almost always (~85% of ore) better to sell the rocks and buy the minerals.

Can that be right? Has refining become a wasted effort at this point?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#2 - 2014-02-18 23:13:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Are you losing 5% to refining tax from having a standing below 6.67?

Are you using 50% facilities?

Are you using sell order prices? Buy order prices? Or something in between?

Is your math buggered?

The basic refining yield formula is:

Refining Yield = MINIMUM( 100%, Station Facilities + 37.5% * (1 + Refining * 2%) * (1 + Refinery Efficiency * 4%) * (1 + Material Specialization * 5%) )

Then there is refining tax:

Tax Percentage = MAXIMUM( 0, 5 - 0.75 * Standing with Corporation )

Note that it is your standing with the corp owning the station, NOT their faction.

In Jita at least, you are better off refining Veldspar:
333 Veldspar = 1000 Tritanium
Veldspar in Jita was 14.77 ISK * 333 = 4918.41
Tritanium in Jita was 5.03 ISK * 1000 = 5030.00 ISK
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#3 - 2014-02-19 08:47:57 UTC
I made a good living buying rocks, refining them and then selling minerals. Your maths is out somewhere.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#4 - 2014-02-19 12:16:07 UTC
Your math is off. I have the unit price, based on the value of refined minerals, in IPH and it is never greater than the asteroid market value. Considering it is an instant and easy way to make quick isk if ores were a better value than the minerals, none of it would stay on the market very long.

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Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-02-19 12:27:02 UTC
I always refine minerals for portability as much as anything, but have to say that with 100% refining efficiency and no tax the value of the minerals I process always comes out higher than the value of the ore...
Erik Sokarad
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-02-19 14:27:39 UTC
there is a decent % increase to the value by refining at 100%, compared to trade hub buy orders for ore vs trade hub but orders for minerals. if you mine it yourself or use buy orders, then you make a profit by refining. however if you buy from sell orders you will lose isk, because the ones that are available do not have a profit for refining.
Strot Harn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-02-19 16:35:41 UTC
Hmmmm, I updates my prices this morning and refining veldspar was profitable on my spreadsheet. Waited 10 minutes, updated again and it was not (Veld was at 14.79 per unit, trit at 4.82, so 333 veld * 14.79 = 4,925.07 versus 1,000 trit * 4.82 = 4,820).

Perhaps, I posted earlier when the market was upside down?

In any case, probably useful to check my math on everything. In response to Tau Cabalander's questions:

My calculations account for tax and my standing with the corp is 8.5, so tax is 0.0%
The spreadsheet accounts for any type of facility and I'm testing on 50% facilities
I'm using Jita sell (minimum) prices
My math may in fact be buggered (I could use a double check below)

My equation is:

Refining Yield = [facility base rate] + 0.375 * (1 + [refining skill] * 0.02) * (1 + [refining efficiency] * 0.04) * (1 + [ore processing skill] * 0.05)

So, 35% equipment with skills: refining 5, refining efficiency 3, ore processing 1, yields and efficiency of 83.5%
[NB: the above is a test of the equation, not the settings I'm using to test the refining vs. mining decision.]

For tax:

Tax = ( 0.05 * (6.6667 - [corp standing]) ) / 6.6667

So a standing of 2.3 would give a 3.28% tax.
NB: again the above is to test the equation, the refine/mine decision has 0.0% tax.

So total yield = (refining yield) - ([refining yield] * [tax])



The mining equation I have is

Units per cycle = ( ( [base laser yield] * [skills] * [ship and equipment] * [implants] ) * [number of beams] ) / [ore volume]

Units per cycle = ( ( [base laser yield] * ([mining skill] * [astrogeology skill] * [mining barge skill] * [exhumer skill] * [mining director skill] ) * ([ship role bonus] * [Mining Last upgrades] * [crystals]) * ([highwall implant] * [michi implant]) ) * [number of beams] ) / [ore volume]

So a Hulk mining veldspar with 3 strip miner II's, 2 mining laser upgrades, using tech II crystals piloted by someone with maxed level 5 skills and both a highwall and michi implants would get:

units per cycle = ( ( (360) * (1.25 * 1.25 * 1.15 * 1.15 * 1.10) * ( 100% * 1.19 * 1.75) * (1.05 * 1.05) ) * 3 beams ) / .10 = 56,363 units per cycle of veldspar.

Is that right? Or am I buggered?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#8 - 2014-02-19 17:15:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Strot Harn wrote:
My math may in fact be buggered (I could use a double check below)

My equation is:

Refining Yield = [facility base rate] + 0.375 * (1 + [refining skill] * 0.02) * (1 + [refining efficiency] * 0.04) * (1 + [ore processing skill] * 0.05)

So, 35% equipment with skills: refining 5, refining efficiency 3, ore processing 1, yields and efficiency of 83.5%
[NB: the above is a test of the equation, not the settings I'm using to test the refining vs. mining decision.]
Edit: Derped on reading the 35% equipment. Why are you using 35% equipment? You need a refinery implant to get that to 100% in a 35.

Oh, and to answer your original question, if you are looking near hubs, most of the ore will be high priced as anything refine price or lower will have been bought out by people with 100% refine. I often buy veldspar instead of titanium if it's going to save a small percentage. In system that attract miners further from hubs, the price decreases as hauling reduces the worth.

The ore specific skills are also used for T2 mining crystals for the T2 strip miners, so if you are a serious miner, you get them all to 4. More of a time sink than anything else I bet.

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Strot Harn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2014-02-19 17:42:18 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
]Edit: Derped on reading the 35% equipment. Why are you using 35% equipment? You need a refinery implant to get that to 100% in a 35.


Not sure if the Edit replaces the two sentences after or not. In any case, "[NB: the above is a test of the equation, not the settings I'm using to test the refining vs. mining decision.]"

The 35% facility was just to test that the equation was right, i.e. that whomever checked it got the same result.

The mine/refine decision uses a 50% facility and maxed skills.

I suppose it comes down to whether someone is at/near a trade hub where the marginal value of refining is bid to near 0. If you are further out, or can't be arsed to head to a hub, the spread may be greater (I am looking a Jita prices! haha)
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#10 - 2014-02-19 18:01:33 UTC
Strot Harn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
]Edit: Derped on reading the 35% equipment. Why are you using 35% equipment? You need a refinery implant to get that to 100% in a 35.


Not sure if the Edit replaces the two sentences after or not. In any case, "[NB: the above is a test of the equation, not the settings I'm using to test the refining vs. mining decision.]"

The 35% facility was just to test that the equation was right, i.e. that whomever checked it got the same result.

The mine/refine decision uses a 50% facility and maxed skills.

I suppose it comes down to whether someone is at/near a trade hub where the marginal value of refining is bid to near 0. If you are further out, or can't be arsed to head to a hub, the spread may be greater (I am looking a Jita prices! haha)
Yeah, Jita prices for ore will be as close to the mineral prices as you can get pretty much, since any below would be bought out quickly.

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Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-02-20 21:55:18 UTC
One time bump to fix forum.