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Death to all Scripts
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cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#21 - 2014-02-12 16:07:33 UTC
We must ask ourselves why were scripts introduced in the first place and continue on that road.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2014-02-12 16:07:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
cynomakinggirl wrote:
Yup. That description was written by an ignorant hacker-wannabe. The amount of stupidity put into that description sends chills through my spine.



Be that as it may, it is what it is. Scripts are certainly NOT on many people's 'top 10 things to fix' list. And work fine.


Simply because things aren't a matter of life or death does not mean they shouldn't be changed. Yes, scripts work fine, as they will after my proposed change. The difference is that they'll be less fiddly. A minor change to enhance user comfort without wrecking balance is never a bad thing imo.

"Scripts are fine" is not an argument, because better by definition is always better. If things are fine there's no reason to not make them better right? :)

Real life anology: Nobody complains if their boss offers them a pay raise, even if your pay was already fine.



Real life analogy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Scripts aren't broke.

I'm generally opposed to ideas that take player choice out of the equation, or reduce it. Easy mode is not Eve. You don't fire up excel to write a word document, and you don't fire up word to put your finances in order. You open two separate programs(Scripts) on the same machine(module).

EDIT: From a game play/balance choice perspective, the scripts are necessary to enforce that choice.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-02-12 16:16:48 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:



Real life analogy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Scripts aren't broke.

I'm generally opposed to ideas that take player choice out of the equation, or reduce it. Easy mode is not Eve. You don't fire up excel to write a word document, and you don't fire up word to put your finances in order. You open two separate programs(Scripts) on the same machine(module).

EDIT: From a game play/balance choice perspective, the scripts are necessary to enforce that choice.


But, if you've read the post, surely you would have seen that, indeed I'm not removing any player choice. I am just removing scripts as a physical item. You still have all the choices, the interface isn't even different. Although instead of right click -> Load Targeting Range Script, it loads it from your ships computer or some ****, rather than from your cargohold.

Player choice remains.

Also as far as if it ain't broke, don't fix it goes. Real life doesn't work that way, nor has it ever. Bronze wasn't a broken metal, yet we did enter the iron age at some point. All of human history has been about improving what isn't broke, but can be done better.

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#24 - 2014-02-12 16:21:06 UTC
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:



Real life analogy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Scripts aren't broke.

I'm generally opposed to ideas that take player choice out of the equation, or reduce it. Easy mode is not Eve. You don't fire up excel to write a word document, and you don't fire up word to put your finances in order. You open two separate programs(Scripts) on the same machine(module).

EDIT: From a game play/balance choice perspective, the scripts are necessary to enforce that choice.


But, if you've read the post, surely you would have seen that, indeed I'm not removing any player choice. I am just removing scripts as a physical item. You still have all the choices, the interface isn't even different. Although instead of right click -> Load Targeting Range Script, it loads it from your ships computer or some ****, rather than from your cargohold.

Player choice remains.

Also as far as if it ain't broke, don't fix it goes. Real life doesn't work that way, nor has it ever. Bronze wasn't a broken metal, yet we did enter the iron age at some point. All of human history has been about improving what isn't broke, but can be done better.


Most advancements are done through experimentation and many bad decisions. You want to experiment, fine. But not when our gameplay is at stake.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2014-02-12 16:21:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:



Real life analogy: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Scripts aren't broke.

I'm generally opposed to ideas that take player choice out of the equation, or reduce it. Easy mode is not Eve. You don't fire up excel to write a word document, and you don't fire up word to put your finances in order. You open two separate programs(Scripts) on the same machine(module).

EDIT: From a game play/balance choice perspective, the scripts are necessary to enforce that choice.


But, if you've read the post, surely you would have seen that, indeed I'm not removing any player choice. I am just removing scripts as a physical item. You still have all the choices, the interface isn't even different. Although instead of right click -> Load Targeting Range Script, it loads it from your ships computer or some ****, rather than from your cargohold.

Player choice remains.

Also as far as if it ain't broke, don't fix it goes. Real life doesn't work that way, nor has it ever. Bronze wasn't a broken metal, yet we did enter the iron age at some point. All of human history has been about improving what isn't broke, but can be done better.



You're still as obtuse and entertaining as ever.


Putting ammo in your ship is a choice. As is leaving it out. Bringing the script at all is a choice. As is not. Simpler isn't always better. And when Bronze and Iron clashed... Yup, P sure bronze got purty borked. Just like when gunpowder met plate armor. Borked it too.



Weapons in Eve have* multiple different ammo types for the choice of choosing which one works best. Cap boosters even have different charge sizes, for choosing which works best. Scripts and Ewar mods are no different.


Because you're not thinking about all the choice removed does not mean I have not read your post, and does not mean you are not removing choice.


*Correcting Verb tense

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Deadonstick Puppyseeker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2014-02-12 16:33:40 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:

You're still as obtuse and entertaining as ever.


Putting ammo in your ship is a choice. As is leaving it out. Bringing the script at all is a choice. As is not. Simpler isn't always better. And when Bronze and Iron clashed... Yup, P sure bronze got purty borked. Just like when gunpowder met plate armor. Borked it too.



Weapons in Eve have* multiple different ammo types for the choice of choosing which one works best. Cap boosters even have different charge sizes, for choosing which works best. Scripts and Ewar mods are no different.


Because you're not thinking about all the choice removed does not mean I have not read your post, and does not mean you are not removing choice.


*Correcting Verb tense


Well yes, not taking scripts is a choice, but not an important one. But in the case of scripts, there are really only three choices, the ammo is not needed for game balance such as with cap boosters (where being able to only take a limited amount and needing to pay for them is crucial).

Now I don't really see anyway this is a bad idea. Not using scripts is still a choice, only not taking them isn't because they are part of the module. This doesn't break gameplay, it doesn't break anything, it simply makes more sense and is less fiddly.

In this case it's not really a matter of experimentation, the results are quite easy to rationalize. No one will be worse off, I don't think riots will emerge because people miss this inconvenience.

Despite what you may have heard there's only one rule of EVE:

Never stop learning and realise there's always a lot more to be learned. To this end, seek wisdom in everything.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#27 - 2014-02-12 16:36:27 UTC
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
the ammo is not needed for game balance such as with cap boosters (where being able to only take a limited amount and needing to pay for them is crucial).


This basically sums up your non-knowledge of the game.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2014-02-12 16:40:09 UTC
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
Well yes, not taking scripts is a choice, but not an important one. But in the case of scripts, there are really only three choices, the ammo is not needed for game balance such as with cap boosters (where being able to only take a limited amount and needing to pay for them is crucial).

Now I don't really see anyway this is a bad idea. Not using scripts is still a choice, only not taking them isn't because they are part of the module. This doesn't break gameplay, it doesn't break anything, it simply makes more sense and is less fiddly.

In this case it's not really a matter of experimentation, the results are quite easy to rationalize. No one will be worse off, I don't think riots will emerge because people miss this inconvenience.




Again, you're assuming.

Every person in Eve has the chance to be better off with the status quo. Your opponent may simply forget to bring scripts, which can have a HUGE impact on a fight. Making it so they always have their scripts no matter what is not a good solution. Now if you wanted to advocate expanding the script choices, sure. I'd like to see some ideas on that, could be fun. But what you're suggesting is that anyone fitting an Ewar-type mod that requires a script will never forget his ammo. How many fights, I wonder, have been decided solely on who brought what ammo? I'd wager quite a few. This is part of fitting in Eve. You can save scripts to fits so they will automatically go to your cargo when you fit. There isn't a reason to make this change. The simple choice of bringing a script or not is a game balance decision. It's like warp scramblers and warp disruptors. One will shut your MWD down, but has a really short range. The other has twice the range, but won't do anything but keep you on field. It's choices.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#29 - 2014-02-12 16:40:21 UTC
unidenify wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:


Scripts are tedious and very annoying when you forget to drag n' drop them to your cargo before undocking.


could be worst

could forget to drag and drop your ammo to your cargo


could be worse, you could forget to drag and drop the exotic dancers into ur cargo

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-02-12 16:42:56 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
unidenify wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:


Scripts are tedious and very annoying when you forget to drag n' drop them to your cargo before undocking.


could be worst

could forget to drag and drop your ammo to your cargo


could be worse, you could forget to drag and drop the exotic dancers into ur cargo



D: DO NOT jest of Such things!!! :( :( :(

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#31 - 2014-02-12 16:50:48 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Deadonstick Puppyseeker wrote:
Well yes, not taking scripts is a choice, but not an important one. But in the case of scripts, there are really only three choices, the ammo is not needed for game balance such as with cap boosters (where being able to only take a limited amount and needing to pay for them is crucial).

Now I don't really see anyway this is a bad idea. Not using scripts is still a choice, only not taking them isn't because they are part of the module. This doesn't break gameplay, it doesn't break anything, it simply makes more sense and is less fiddly.

In this case it's not really a matter of experimentation, the results are quite easy to rationalize. No one will be worse off, I don't think riots will emerge because people miss this inconvenience.




Again, you're assuming.

Every person in Eve has the chance to be better off with the status quo. Your opponent may simply forget to bring scripts, which can have a HUGE impact on a fight. Making it so they always have their scripts no matter what is not a good solution. Now if you wanted to advocate expanding the script choices, sure. I'd like to see some ideas on that, could be fun. But what you're suggesting is that anyone fitting an Ewar-type mod that requires a script will never forget his ammo. How many fights, I wonder, have been decided solely on who brought what ammo? I'd wager quite a few. This is part of fitting in Eve. You can save scripts to fits so they will automatically go to your cargo when you fit. There isn't a reason to make this change. The simple choice of bringing a script or not is a game balance decision. It's like warp scramblers and warp disruptors. One will shut your MWD down, but has a really short range. The other has twice the range, but won't do anything but keep you on field. It's choices.


So far this is the best answer to the failed attempt at changing a working game mechanic.
All the proposals were thoroughly and exhaustively debunked, while the OP failed to mention even one single good reason.
We can now move this thread to the graveyard and focus our energies on more important matter.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Leoric Firesword
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2014-02-12 18:04:02 UTC
so wait, you want CCP to take dev time to change scripts with take up an amazing 1 m3 of cargo space on your COMBAT ship, the end outcome of which is that you'll save how much cargo space on your COMBAT ship?

really?

you'll still have to right click and change what you're using. so yeah.
DSpite Culhach
#33 - 2014-02-18 03:42:48 UTC
I am aware that loading up a ship fitting from the "saved" list now also equips ammo into cargo. Do scripts get loaded as well?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2014-02-18 04:29:34 UTC
DSpite Culhach wrote:
I am aware that loading up a ship fitting from the "saved" list now also equips ammo into cargo. Do scripts get loaded as well?




If they are saved to the fit, yes they should.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-02-18 11:11:31 UTC
Scripts are badly named.
The name script suggests a software component that should logically be part of the system and applied through digital means rathers than physically humping from the cargo bay to the module.

It is rather immersion breaking.

A better choice of name is all that is needed, one that suggest a hardware component not a software one.

Script x

Adaptor ?
Enhancer ?
Motherboard ?
DaughterBoard ?
Dongle ?
Doohicky ?
Core ?
Co-Processor ?
PPU ( Parallel processing unit ) ?
Ronny Hugo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2014-02-18 11:25:36 UTC
Have you ever written a script that improves the effective range that you can fire your lasers from your spaceship at other spaceships? How do you know how little space they require? For all you know they require a dozen motorcycle sized hot-swap harddrives with a special quantum computer in them that allows for the complex calculations to be done simultaneously for all turrets.
Add some text on their info pages to make clear how complex they are, and then we don't have to change anything. Nice and cheap. Spend my subscription money making actual new content.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-02-18 11:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kenrailae wrote:
*Headdesk*


Scripts are fine. You can choose to be really good at 1 or the other, or okay at both. Choice. Cornerstone of Eve. Come on man.



@ Cynogirl: It's like an AM/FM radio. It can listen to two different types of radio by flipping a switch. So instead of receiving and coordinating turret tracking by giving my target additional read outs on what direction and what velocity a ship is moving with my tracking link, I'm providing additional data to improve it's optimal range with very similar data, applied in a slightly different fashion on a needs based basis. If my friendly is at 8k and his optimal is 7 and he's having no problems with tracking, my data is helping push his optimal up a bit by giving him better targeting information. Now if the target is going a bit faster or more sporadically than his single point of reference can adequately account for with turret tracking, my additional data helps him lead his targets better. It's a very similar role, applied in different fashions, which is why scripts exist.

LMAO.

"X is fine" - is a standard response to anyone criticizing or suggesting an improvement to EVE. This week I've heard Sov is fine, timers are fine, battleships are fine, suicide ganking is fine, suicide bombers are fine... wait ... maybe not the last one. Now this idea, which is fine :) , gets the scripts are fine argument even though OP is 100% correct, more streamlined and less micromanaging of scripts would be ... fine.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-02-18 12:06:12 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
*Headdesk*


Scripts are fine. You can choose to be really good at 1 or the other, or okay at both. Choice. Cornerstone of Eve. Come on man.



@ Cynogirl: It's like an AM/FM radio. It can listen to two different types of radio by flipping a switch. So instead of receiving and coordinating turret tracking by giving my target additional read outs on what direction and what velocity a ship is moving with my tracking link, I'm providing additional data to improve it's optimal range with very similar data, applied in a slightly different fashion on a needs based basis. If my friendly is at 8k and his optimal is 7 and he's having no problems with tracking, my data is helping push his optimal up a bit by giving him better targeting information. Now if the target is going a bit faster or more sporadically than his single point of reference can adequately account for with turret tracking, my additional data helps him lead his targets better. It's a very similar role, applied in different fashions, which is why scripts exist.

LMAO.

"X is fine" - is a standard response to anyone criticizing or suggesting an improvement to EVE. This week I've heard Sov is fine, timers are fine, battleships are fine, suicide ganking is fine, suicide bombers are fine... wait ... maybe not the last one. Now this idea, which is fine :) , gets the scripts are fine argument even though OP is 100% correct, more streamlined and less micromanaging of scripts would be ... fine.



I apologize that you forgot your scripts. Unlike Sov and timers which are silly broken, there is nothing wrong with scripts. They do not need to be 'automatically part of modules' as the OP suggests. They need to, like ammo, be something you have to bring, to have the option to choose.


The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-02-18 12:07:33 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
*Headdesk*


Scripts are fine. You can choose to be really good at 1 or the other, or okay at both. Choice. Cornerstone of Eve. Come on man.



@ Cynogirl: It's like an AM/FM radio. It can listen to two different types of radio by flipping a switch. So instead of receiving and coordinating turret tracking by giving my target additional read outs on what direction and what velocity a ship is moving with my tracking link, I'm providing additional data to improve it's optimal range with very similar data, applied in a slightly different fashion on a needs based basis. If my friendly is at 8k and his optimal is 7 and he's having no problems with tracking, my data is helping push his optimal up a bit by giving him better targeting information. Now if the target is going a bit faster or more sporadically than his single point of reference can adequately account for with turret tracking, my additional data helps him lead his targets better. It's a very similar role, applied in different fashions, which is why scripts exist.

LMAO.

"X is fine" - is a standard response to anyone criticizing or suggesting an improvement to EVE. This week I've heard Sov is fine, timers are fine, battleships are fine, suicide ganking is fine, suicide bombers are fine... wait ... maybe not the last one. Now this idea, which is fine :) , gets the scripts are fine argument even though OP is 100% correct, more streamlined and less micromanaging of scripts would be ... fine.



I apologize that you forgot your scripts. Unlike Sov and timers which are silly broken, there is nothing wrong with scripts. They do not need to be 'automatically part of modules' as the OP suggests. They need to, like ammo, be something you have to bring, to have the option to choose.



Because they're 'fine' right?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#40 - 2014-02-18 12:39:10 UTC
Since scripts are so cheap, and not consumable, I agree with the OP. There's no reason why you would never choose to bring the scripts so there's no interesting choices to make.
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