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Teleportation Change
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Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#61 - 2014-02-14 22:38:42 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.

In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).

Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?

The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.


This is the better way of handling Med Clones. Most of the time, you do not need to worry about changing med clone stations. The main issue is if you get into the bad situation of being repeatedly podded.

Since Ship Jumping Mechanics are different from clone/podding, there is no power projection with a pod in and of itself - you only have power projection with something that has power - a ship. I would be happy with adding a time delay in medical clone transfer - have it mirror clone jumping to keep things simpler.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Torijace
The Upside Down
#62 - 2014-02-14 23:40:04 UTC
I hate to punch holes into your argument but i think your time comparison however interesting is comparing apples to oranges. The big difference between an crow and a Thanatos is about 1.2billion isk for that a Thanatos deserves I think a bit of an edge on force projection. Titan bridging however is a completely different situation and is still very unbalanced.

Titans:

-Almost never expose themselves while bridging (Titans are safe and rarely deployed on the field)
-Move mass amount of ships long distance for minimal isk.
-Make null sec logistics a joke (Titan bridging freighters)

The solution with 90% of the force projection problems in eve revolve around the titan and you could resolve this by requiring ships to dock and be moved with the titan (and carriers for that matter) instead of jumping through jump portals. You could also tie cost of jumping to the total mass of the ship jumping and all its cargo (including other ships). This would effect force projection by:

-Exposing titans every time they deploy ships to an engagement
-Increase the cost of moving mass ships long distances
-Limit the m3 of ships moved on a particular run (150 frigs might be able to dock with titan but only 20 battleships)
-Forcing logistics by titan to be more expensive (though not prohibitively so)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#63 - 2014-02-14 23:46:17 UTC
Torijace wrote:
I hate to punch holes into your argument but i think your time comparison however interesting is comparing apples to oranges. The big difference between an crow and a Thanatos is about 1.2billion isk for that a Thanatos deserves I think a bit of an edge on force projection. Titan bridging however is a completely different situation and is still very unbalanced.

Titans:

-Almost never expose themselves while bridging (Titans are safe and rarely deployed on the field)
-Move mass amount of ships long distance for minimal isk.
-Make null sec logistics a joke (Titan bridging freighters)

The solution with 90% of the force projection problems in eve revolve around the titan and you could resolve this by requiring ships to dock and be moved with the titan (and carriers for that matter) instead of jumping through jump portals. You could also tie cost of jumping to the total mass of the ship jumping and all its cargo (including other ships). This would effect force projection by:

-Exposing titans every time they deploy ships to an engagement
-Increase the cost of moving mass ships long distances
-Limit the m3 of ships moved on a particular run (150 frigs might be able to dock with titan but only 20 battleships)
-Forcing logistics by titan to be more expensive (though not prohibitively so)

Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors.
Torijace
The Upside Down
#64 - 2014-02-15 00:40:08 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors.


Why should an airplane arrive before a motorcycle? I don't think cost is the only thing to factor i think it has a lot to do with role..

You do make a good point though maybe without realizing it. Whats the roll of a titan to move mass groups of ships or to shoot things. If its the former then it should be designed more like a freighter with minimal armor and weapons and maximum space.. if however its a combat ship then it should have the armor and weapons to support that role. Rarely in life can you have it all ways.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#65 - 2014-02-15 00:48:19 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

It's not like the cyno network is vulnerable from the time it is setup till the time you need it. You just log them off keeping the network 100% safe until you need it.

Indeed. That is what spies are paid to find out. Never-the-less, it has to be set up.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#66 - 2014-02-15 00:56:31 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:

Why should the giant siege weapon arrive before the scout? While cost is something to consider, it should not be one of the primary balancing factors.


How can the Titan Bridge without a scout in place? Or is there more magic to titan bridging than I last remember?

Scout/cyno arrives in system first.... always. But requiring the bridge device to travel as well since, unlike a jump bridge on a POS or a star gate, it is not anchored, would certainly effect how bridging is used in the game by exposing the Titan to attack.

This would be good.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#67 - 2014-02-15 02:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Wedgetail
Ilyana Nehla wrote:



(text limit had to cut the quote points but i tried to address all of them in order)
other comments regarding cyno chains are also touched upon here


  • the point of the spool up on a structure is to allow defenders to destroy the cyno - if the cyno's busted you can't jump to it - and therefore can't move - you can stop the opposition moving just by knowing there's about to be a cyno there. (timeframe of ~ 30 minutes total anchor and online with global beacon structure is plenty of warning for anyone to act and if you can't too bad.)

  • Travel speed doesn't matter if you can't get to where you're needing to go ^ see destroyed cyno chains, PPP means if i spend PPP to get to rally chances are i'll no longer be able to deploy to the field with the fleet and therefore can't go. - see micromanaging fuel gauges and expending finite resource pools - this becomes especially pronounced the longer combat progresses and the coherence of the situation deteriorates.

  • CTA's are pointless if no one can get to them on short notice, that's why they're CTA's - 'drop what you're doing and get here for the fleet we need to move in 5 minutes - yes fleet response times really do have to be this fast. the current systems cost to use, clone jumps cost time, blood jumps cost money - (in my case 30 mil just in the clone cost) which is plenty given the action you're undertaking - no one wants to prohibit people from participating, but nor can such powerful actions be totally free - the current system is sufficient here.

  • Concerning use of territory in response to when to expand or not is a bit too lengthy an answer for this discussion - suffice to say there are many uses for space you don't use yourself, and predicting corporate level use of space on an individual level is impossible.

  • Again, Movement itself is not the issue - Movement to specific points unhindered and with no prior warning is the issue, structures solve this, again - you cannot bridge or jump w/o a cyno to land on - so make the cyno an 'easier' target.

  • This is where strategy comes in, not the tactics you confuse them with, you have to establish and defend cyno chains ahead of time and constantly - they also will expire of age and need replacing. - strategy is before and after the development of a combat situation, and may encompass several battles - tactics is start to end of a combat situation and consists of just one battle, the difference between the CPU and the processing threads it uses.

  • (tactical aspect) Breaking into hostile systems and maintaining a force long enough to set up a cyno. (given gate distance restrictions etc on structures) becomes a difficult issue, requires forward planning and even then stands a very strong likely hood of failure due to hostile action - this is what we want.

  • short answer, movement becomes less fluid because of logistics maintenance not fuel tanks - it is interrupted by the actions of other players not by a generic cool down number - much more preferable scenarios to ' oh damn i don't have 3 units of generic quantity 37 we have to wait an hour before we can do anything' - do not restrict the action from happening but allow it to be prevented - more people will be involved and interests will clash more frequently. (propper implementation of the logic behind ccp's foolish ESS concept)

  • server side: structures will also avoid the need to constantly manage and maintain the PPP numbers of some 300 000 toons (or w/e the current number is) PPP in its current form is going to add load to the servers not decrease load, by using a passive method like the structures method suggested you avoid the need to waste energy maintaining so many additional numbers and still achieve a similar result - leaving more room for the servers to do what they're there to do - facilitate us shooting each other in the face.

Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#68 - 2014-02-15 05:02:49 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
Ilyana Nehla wrote:



(text limit had to cut the quote points but i tried to address all of them in order)
other comments regarding cyno chains are also touched upon here

The List




Oh yes. I like that idea Ilyana.

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#69 - 2014-02-15 05:37:40 UTC
The problem with a spool up timer on cyno's is the moment they are lit, all one needs to do is look for the ship next to it (same distance) at zero speed. Then you just have your fleet volley it off the field. This can happen in just a few seconds. So the spool up timer would need to only have a delay of a couple seconds, which makes means adding the couple second delay is kind of pointless against medium to large sized fleets. Even if the cyno is not killed and you add a 5-10 minute delay on what comes in, it will not have any real effect on power projection in the grand scheme of things.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-02-15 05:53:29 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
The problem with a spool up timer on cyno's is the moment they are lit, all one needs to do is look for the ship next to it (same distance) at zero speed. Then you just have your fleet volley it off the field. This can happen in just a few seconds. So the spool up timer would need to only have a delay of a couple seconds, which makes means adding the couple second delay is kind of pointless against medium to large sized fleets. Even if the cyno is not killed and you add a 5-10 minute delay on what comes in, it will not have any real effect on power projection in the grand scheme of things.


the idea is the cyno is no longer ship bound but a structure - the cyno generator ship module will cease to exist - so it's not the ship that needs to pop, but the deployable - which must be defended as it anchors/onlines before it activates and a fleet can jump to it :)

yes the issue is with the timer vs how much HP /how easy to RR this thing's going to be - the idea isn't to stop people from moving, it's to stop them from being able to 'you can try to move as much as you like but it does you no good cuz there's no cyno to land on - you can't move until there is, so for as long as they keep shooting them down your fleet's going nowhere'

so i can have the largest fleet in the world waiting to jump in - but for as long as the defenders keep stopping the cynos from coming online they can't move, which means sending fleets through gates to stop the defenders (much like you do to break a cyno jammed system) - which will mean active defense and patrolling border systems is rewarded: you find enemy cyno strings and fleet lines which you can then try to cut, once the chains are broken the enemy movement is severely restricted along that line - making things easier for the other side until the chain's repaired.
Sigras
Conglomo
#71 - 2014-02-15 06:24:53 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.

In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).

Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?

The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.

You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home and suicide pods there. All without burning any PPP making the deployment so far away less strategic.

With the death clone tied in, they can still pod back, but everyone hopping into capitals and or immediately bridge on the enemy. It bring some balance into the equation. That make sense?

I dont think you understood his post. He is proposing a delay on changing your med clone location, so in your scenario:

You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home. Since they were unprepared they need to wait 3 hours for the technicians in their home station to ready a clone (maybe longer if several clones are set to the same station all at once). After the preparation delay they suicide pod home to salvage the wreckage of the titan they were too late to save
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#72 - 2014-02-15 16:30:08 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.

In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).

Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?

The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.

You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home and suicide pods there. All without burning any PPP making the deployment so far away less strategic.

With the death clone tied in, they can still pod back, but everyone hopping into capitals and or immediately bridge on the enemy. It bring some balance into the equation. That make sense?

I dont think you understood his post. He is proposing a delay on changing your med clone location, so in your scenario:

You are deployed to the far side of the game. A friendly titan is tackled back home or it is invaded. Everyone changes their medical clone back home. Since they were unprepared they need to wait 3 hours for the technicians in their home station to ready a clone (maybe longer if several clones are set to the same station all at once). After the preparation delay they suicide pod home to salvage the wreckage of the titan they were too late to save

Ahhh. Well that is different.

I kind of want to include it along with the PPP. Big smile
Jureth22
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2014-02-15 17:20:42 UTC
didint knew eve has teleportation,is it asgard tech?
Svodola Darkfury
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2014-02-15 17:36:05 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
I recently outlined an idea on changing the way we do teleportation in the game. In a way, power projection. The details can be found in my blog, Reversal of Fortune.

Cancers of EVE Online: Teleportation

While it is a long read, I feel it is important to take in the scope of everything that is involved. Please try not to be hung up on one aspect of it and really think about the big picture and how your operations, your enemies and the game in general would change with this change.

Apologies if the blog format wreaks of noob mistakes, it is my first attempt at blogging and any feedback on improving the experience is always welcome via the site and or evemail. Smile



A very interesting read Marlona and I think it is a possible solution; I do not like the idea of static POS mods taxing the PPP though. Given the inherent cost of setting up the network and the time delay on owning the system, seems like an unnecessary cost. Intrigued by the other ideas though.

Svo.

Director of Frozen Corpse Industries.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-02-15 18:16:48 UTC
Svodola Darkfury wrote:
Marlona Sky wrote:
I recently outlined an idea on changing the way we do teleportation in the game. In a way, power projection. The details can be found in my blog, Reversal of Fortune.

Cancers of EVE Online: Teleportation

While it is a long read, I feel it is important to take in the scope of everything that is involved. Please try not to be hung up on one aspect of it and really think about the big picture and how your operations, your enemies and the game in general would change with this change.

Apologies if the blog format wreaks of noob mistakes, it is my first attempt at blogging and any feedback on improving the experience is always welcome via the site and or evemail. Smile



A very interesting read Marlona and I think it is a possible solution; I do not like the idea of static POS mods taxing the PPP though. Given the inherent cost of setting up the network and the time delay on owning the system, seems like an unnecessary cost. Intrigued by the other ideas though.

Svo.

The great thing about the design is the taxing amount can be adjusted. For example:

Instead of costing 5 light years in PPP to go 5 light years. CCP can adjust it so it only cost say 3 light years of PPP to go 5 light years.

The other thing I will be changing is the name of the resource. PPP and using light years as the resource is confusing. I am leaning on someone else's idea of changing it to Spatial Calibration. That way each teleportation mechanic can be adjusted to pull a different amount of SC points per light year distance traveled. Say a jump drive costs 1000 SC to go 1 light year, but taking a POS jump bridge uses 800 SC to go 1 light year. Same distance, but different strain on your Spacial Calibration points.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#76 - 2014-02-16 16:03:08 UTC
I read your blog and agree with you that fast transportation is a problem, but couldn't you achieve a similar effect by making all the regional gaps a bit further apart - such that capital ships had a harder time jumping across regional boundaries? Or could not jump drive or Titan bridge across regional 0.0 boundaries at all? In other words, all regions would become more distinct. A huge coalition could still try to control multiple regions, but could not put all their eggs in one basket.

Another idea - along with the above - would be to let capitals use 0.0 gates if they fit special modules to lower mass (could be new mods or just nanofibers). They would still be very mobile within a region, but slow and vulnerable if moving between regions.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#77 - 2014-02-16 16:21:58 UTC
Erutpar Ambient wrote:
Oh, i wanted to add one more thing.

In regards to Pod Express (changing med clone location and self destructing pod).

Instead of tying that into the PPP, why not just put a delay on changing your med clone location. Realistically how can you have a clone ready and made instantly in the new station? How fast does one really need to have their med clone relocated?

The amount of time is mostly arbitrary. 2 hours, 24 hours... It just needs to be significant enough to prevent abuse.


This is a good change.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#78 - 2014-02-16 19:21:42 UTC
Alternatively the sandbox could deal with the problem with just a few simple changes:

1. Make jump bridges take nearly all of the pos resources, effectively defanging the towers they are associated with. Also reduce their shield/armor hp to make incapacitating them practical for a small gang.

2. Declare that pos shields interfere with jumpdrives and simply not permit bridging or jumping out from within a pos shield.

These simple changes would make the teleportation network more fragile and vulnerable to small gangs.
Ilyana Nehla
Caldari Supply and Armament Inc.
#79 - 2014-02-17 06:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ilyana Nehla
Wedgetail wrote:


...text...



I see your point. Still I'd suggest a spoolup timerm, which is much more versatile. Since you can manage it easier for every shiptype. I dont see why a JF should wait 30mins for the cyno to jump. Since we are talking about powerprojection militaryships are what we want to balance.

Additional:
Structures are not as versatile. A Cynoship you can tank if needed. Lets say you are up against a fleet of a Laserfitted AHACs. You might want to push up the em and thermal resists. With structures you just get flat resists. Well that might help to deny a escalation you say but people want escalations dont they? Plus, the ship dropping the cyno is off the battle so -1 for the dropping fleet. Unless you give it like 2000m3, so a Industrial(something along these lines) is needed to drop the structure.

Maybe even a "callout" to the local withing the region the cyno is charging like : "Mass detectors pick up a increasing force of gravity in this region[maybe insert region here]."

But even your changes to change a bit in the small scale it actually doesnt fix the problem of whole alliancefleets being everywhere within minutes.

As I said I see your point, but I am very sure it doesn't adresses the culprit, the root of all evil, concerning power projection.
With your changes you might have the chance to retreat if a blobb is imminent but you certainly doesn't have the ability to successfully attack big entities and hurt them. Most of us here want smaller groups to be able to stich and hurt big entities if they don't plan properly.


Kynric wrote:
Alternatively the sandbox could deal with the problem with just a few simple changes:

1. Make jump bridges take nearly all of the pos resources, effectively defanging the towers they are associated with. Also reduce their shield/armor hp to make incapacitating them practical for a small gang.

2. Declare that pos shields interfere with jumpdrives and simply not permit bridging or jumping out from within a pos shield.

These simple changes would make the teleportation network more fragile and vulnerable to small gangs.


These simple changes would hurt mostly small playergroups and corps not big entities. While big entities easily can afford losing them and dont care about the bills for running it small groups might really struggle to support it. You are doing the opposite to what we want.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#80 - 2014-02-17 11:17:27 UTC
Ilyana Nehla wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:


...text...



I see your point. Still I'd suggest a spoolup timerm, which is much more versatile. Since you can manage it easier for every shiptype. I dont see why a JF should wait 30mins for the cyno to jump. Since we are talking about powerprojection militaryships are what we want to balance.

Additional:
Structures are not as versatile. A Cynoship you can tank if needed. Lets say you are up against a fleet of a Laserfitted AHACs. You might want to push up the em and thermal resists. With structures you just get flat resists. Well that might help to deny a escalation you say but people want escalations dont they? Plus, the ship dropping the cyno is off the battle so -1 for the dropping fleet. Unless you give it like 2000m3, so a Industrial(something along these lines) is needed to drop the structure.

Maybe even a "callout" to the local withing the region the cyno is charging like : "Mass detectors pick up a increasing force of gravity in this region[maybe insert region here]."

But even your changes to change a bit in the small scale it actually doesnt fix the problem of whole alliancefleets being everywhere within minutes.

As I said I see your point, but I am very sure it doesn't adresses the culprit, the root of all evil, concerning power projection.
With your changes you might have the chance to retreat if a blobb is imminent but you certainly doesn't have the ability to successfully attack big entities and hurt them. Most of us here want smaller groups to be able to stich and hurt big entities if they don't plan properly.





the thing is they can, both sides can move equally, structures have a life span of 30 days if not shot down - the cyno chain takes time to establish - hence the anchor times but from then on fires as cyno generators on towers do now - whenever you jump to them, so the idea is setting up a chain in peaceful space is easy - setting one up for imminent combat is not - cynos are not bound to toons so fitting a cyno ship and logging off in a system until you need it will not keep it safe (safer but not safe) is now no longer viable - you have to maintain the cyno chains much more actively - they are always there and so can be destroyed by anyone at any point in the day.

as i said the idea isn't to stop people from moving long distances it's to make it take effort (energy over time), and to provide a means for their opposition to prevent them from using that means of attack (to deny or disable) - the distance has never mattered ever, the frequency has and the inability to act to prevent it are what this issue is.

PPP won't help little guys in the least - for as long as both sides fight under the same constraints it'll always boil down to who has more resources to use - that's how it is now - guys who can jump and guys who can't distance is irrelevant as all entities have the same tech, be they blops titans carriers freighters w/e all share the same range based on skill for the same cost.

PPP is only going to make that worse when comparing little guys and big ones, if you wanna make the field more viable you have to introduce points of failure, places in the system that can be attacked and broken before the power of x gets to bear, having cynos as a vulnerable and more importantly persistent point will do this - PPP will not, as it cannot be 'attacked' sure it can be drained but when you're fighting a team that has three fleets to your one they'll just drain yours faster and you'll be faced against an opponent you can't out maneuver - cuz they have PPP in the pool and you spent yours draining the first guy's - again finite resource pools when playing numbers games BAD, leads to 'more pilots mean more resource bigger guys win'