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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2321 - 2014-02-15 06:55:54 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is a terrible fit.

It's a dreadfully horrible design. You were expecting good fits?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#2322 - 2014-02-15 07:52:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is a terrible fit.

It's a dreadfully horrible design. You were expecting good fits?

I have one. Well two really since they work together, but I can fit a Nestor just fine for fleets fights. Solo....well its **** for solo imo. But in a group its better than the other drone boat out there. HTH.

DPS: http://i.imgur.com/MFXcqMr.png 563 DPS/2250 Volley (~200K EHP Cap Stable)
Tank: http://i.imgur.com/aVxfD0l.png 338 DPS/1350 Volley (~315K EHP Cap Stable)
Fleet of 10 Nestors provides 6600 EDPS Tank Cap Stable with 5405 DPS 21600 Volley @ 105K + 57K FO.
(assuming primary target is tank fit with 9 Nestors DPS fit.)

While they cost more they are the best subcap droneboats you can field.

TP can be exchanged for a prop mod. If you do not think MMJD will suffice.
Can do full Optimal or Full Tracking Scripts depending on the fight.
Close Range with Gardes + Tracking Scripts (.06) is 751/3005 DPS fit 450/1800 Tank Fit
Can hold 3 Sentry flights + Reserve Support Drones (mediums and lights or other)

And largely immune to Damps.

1 Mid Slot is available. TP will help with overall damage application, but you can pretty much put anything in place of the TP.


Domi is cheaper but Nestor is better.

That being said.

I still think the Nestor would be better served as a Blackops Logistics vessel.

Remove the Drone bonus
Remove the laser bonus
Remove the virus bonus
Cut Drone bay to 225

Add Cap Transfer Bonus/Range (Amarr BS)
Add Logistic Drone Bonus (Galentte BS)
Add Fuel Bay (can jump to BlopsCyno, can not bridge though)
*No Speed Reduction when using a cloaking device* or Cov Ops cloak if CCP wants it to be useful in WH space and General Space.

I honestly think that this ship should be the Logistics vessel that Black Ops so desperately needs to make it a fleet that does something other than gank. Fitting T3's with remote reps is a gimmick and it can be remedied with allowing Nestor to Bridge to covert cynos.

(Also I would like to thank the donators who believed in the hype for the ~2.2B received in exchange for XML's. Sorry the fits are public now.)
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#2323 - 2014-02-15 18:13:00 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is a terrible fit.

It's a dreadfully horrible design. You were expecting good fits?
Stuff.... But in a group its better than the other drone boat out there....stuff


Rattlesnake is better for tank and dps combination and cheaper... much cheaper
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2324 - 2014-02-15 18:18:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
.

I still think the Nestor would be better served as a Blackops Logistics vessel.

Remove the Drone bonus
Remove the laser bonus
Remove the virus bonus
Cut Drone bay to 225

Add Cap Transfer Bonus/Range (Amarr BS)
Add Logistic Drone Bonus (Galentte BS)
Add Fuel Bay (can jump to BlopsCyno, can not bridge though)
*No Speed Reduction when using a cloaking device* or Cov Ops cloak if CCP wants it to be useful in WH space and General Space.

I honestly think that this ship should be the Logistics vessel that Black Ops so desperately needs to make it a fleet that does something other than gank. Fitting T3's with remote reps is a gimmick and it can be remedied with allowing Nestor to Bridge to covert cynos.

(Also I would like to thank the donators who believed in the hype for the ~2.2B received in exchange for XML's. Sorry the fits are public now.)



Exactly what I said originally.

We are going to have to wait for them to screw up the BLOPs hulls as well first though it seems.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2325 - 2014-02-15 18:48:28 UTC
Mario Putzo
#2326 - 2014-02-15 19:06:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Nikuno wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is a terrible fit.

It's a dreadfully horrible design. You were expecting good fits?
Stuff.... But in a group its better than the other drone boat out there....stuff


Rattlesnake is better for tank and dps combination and cheaper... much cheaper


Much cheaper right now,,,the ship isnt even a month old, calm your ****. And in a group a RR Nestor Fleet will also beat a Rattlesnake fleet.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2327 - 2014-02-15 21:28:34 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
That is a terrible fit.

It's a dreadfully horrible design. You were expecting good fits?
Stuff.... But in a group its better than the other drone boat out there....stuff


Rattlesnake is better for tank and dps combination and cheaper... much cheaper


Much cheaper right now,,,the ship isnt even a month old, calm your ****. And in a group a RR Nestor Fleet will also beat a Rattlesnake fleet.


It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#2328 - 2014-02-15 21:52:50 UTC
Increase the capacitor and let it use cov ops cloak, but no covert bridge.

I have spoken.

"A City made of Dreams is built in heaven"
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2329 - 2014-02-15 22:08:33 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2330 - 2014-02-15 22:13:24 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Well no ****. No one is going to pay 1B for a fit they can figure out themselves in EFT. It shouldn't be to hard for people to figure out how to fit one tbh.

Ill make you a special offer though for this limit time only I will provide you with the DPS fit, and the Tank Fit for the low price of 500M.

"By Grabthar's hammer... what a savings!"


Big smile Really though, it isn't fit much different than a domi. It has a bit less overall range and tracking but it has a much higher EHP, and is capable of scaling much higher RR numbers and being Cap Stable. With the exact same DPS and Alpha Damage.

Basically you pay for Cap Stability, A higher DPS tank, and a Higher buffer EHP. When the price comes down this ship will be better to field over a domi in most scenarios. Exception being small numbers.



There is actually a limit to the scalability of Nestor remote reps as fleets get larger: max lockable targets and locking time.

By the time you've locked the repair target, he may well be dead.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2331 - 2014-02-15 22:17:39 UTC
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).


Please supply a mathematical illustration of the discount factor produced by bpc drops.

I will believe you if you can prove this using current market prices of materials, vindicators and items that compete for LP with vindicators.

If we compute this discount factor, we can apply it to the Nestor and then base our expectations of performance from there.

If that discount factor is <= 0.3 then you'll have me convinced.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2332 - 2014-02-15 23:33:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Divi Filus
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).


Please supply a mathematical illustration of the discount factor produced by bpc drops.

I will believe you if you can prove this using current market prices of materials, vindicators and items that compete for LP with vindicators.

If we compute this discount factor, we can apply it to the Nestor and then base our expectations of performance from there.

If that discount factor is <= 0.3 then you'll have me convinced.


In the first place, it isn't my job to convince you or to supply mathematical models—I've supplied enough charts to this thread as it is. As far as I'm concerned, it suffices to point out that your argument that the Nestor's price cannot fall fails because its central premise—that its market value is tied to its LP cost—is flawed: those ties are cut the moment a drop mechanism is in place.

But for the sake of argument (because I do love a good argument), let's take a single example: the Machariel. The Machariel's market value isn't tied to its LP store cost because, as will be true of the Nestor, there is a drop mechanism. Let us suppose that, instead, the Mach's market value were strictly tied to its LP store cost, and let us suppose (following your reasoning) that its LP-ISK conversion rate must be competitive with the other items in the store in order to incentivize its production. In order to compete with the fifth most valuable item in the Archangel LP store at current conversion rates (based on Jita buy orders), factoring in production costs, the Machariel would have to have a price tag at right around 4 billion ISK. In order to compete with a BPC-produced Cynabal (which, incidentally, is currently the 31st best LP-ISK converter in Archangel store), the Machariel need only sell for a modest 1.02 billion: a much more reasonable figure to be sure, but still a 32% increase over current Mach sell prices. Further comparisons are left as an exercise for any reader with way too much time on their hands.

EDIT: Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, the BPC-produced Machariel is currently the 47th most valuable LP-ISK converter in its store, at 1315.6 ISK/LP; compare to the BPC-produced Cynabal, at 1931.5 ISK/LP.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2333 - 2014-02-16 00:00:07 UTC
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).


Please supply a mathematical illustration of the discount factor produced by bpc drops.

I will believe you if you can prove this using current market prices of materials, vindicators and items that compete for LP with vindicators.

If we compute this discount factor, we can apply it to the Nestor and then base our expectations of performance from there.

If that discount factor is <= 0.3 then you'll have me convinced.


In the first place, it isn't my job to convince you or to supply mathematical models—I've supplied enough charts to this thread as it is. As far as I'm concerned, it suffices to point out that your argument that the Nestor's price cannot fall fails because its central premise—that its market value is tied to its LP cost—is flawed: those ties are cut the moment a drop mechanism is in place.

But for the sake of argument (because I do love a good argument), let's take a single example: the Machariel. The Machariel's market value isn't tied to its LP store cost because, as will be true of the Nestor, there is a drop mechanism. Let us suppose that, instead, the Mach's market value were strictly tied to its LP store cost, and let us suppose (following your reasoning) that its LP-ISK conversion rate must be competitive with the other items in the store in order to incentivize its production. In order to compete with the fifth most valuable item in the Archangel LP store at current conversion rates (based on Jita buy orders), factoring in production costs, the Machariel would have to have a price tag at right around 4 billion ISK. In order to compete with a BPC-produced Cynabal (which, incidentally, is currently the 31st best LP-ISK converter in Archangel store), the Machariel need only sell for a modest 1.02 billion: a much more reasonable figure to be sure, but still a 32% increase over current Mach sell prices. Further comparisons are left as an exercise for any reader with way too much time on their hands.

EDIT: Oh, and in case anyone was wondering, the BPC-produced Machariel is currently the 47th most valuable LP-ISK converter in its store, at 1315.6 ISK/LP; compare to the BPC-produced Cynabal, at 1931.5 ISK/LP.


So that's a discount factor of 0.68. Just over half of what it would need to be to make the Nestor a reasonable purchase in my estimation.

Better hope those drones are generous...

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2334 - 2014-02-16 00:02:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Divi Filus
Mournful Conciousness wrote:


So that's a discount factor of 0.68. Just over half of what it would need to be to make the Nestor a reasonable purchase in my estimation.

Better hope those drones are generous...



0.68 if you use the Cynabal as a benchmark. Considerably greater if you use the higher-value items in the store. EDIT: And bear in mind that in comparing to the Cynabal, we are comparing to something that itself benefits from a drop mechanism which could drive down its ISK/LP rate.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2335 - 2014-02-16 00:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).





The LP conversions on the pirate faction ships is actually pretty crappy, along the lines of a selling implants for one of the empire navies, they make under 1000isk per LP. Angle space goes from Tenerfis to I think Scalding Pass (I think its been a while since I was up there), Serpentis from Fade to Fountan, Gurista from Pure Blind around to Tenal.

The drones are a goodly number of regions, but its going to be a minute before there is any volume coming out of there, if you haven't noticed there is a bit of a war going on in the area, and Solar wants their traditional home back.
Mario Putzo
#2336 - 2014-02-16 00:07:22 UTC
Heh these guys who think Nestor is going stay at 1.6B make me laugh.

HAHAHA

^ See, Just like that. Nestor will be worth around 800K when all is said and done...because "balance".

Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2337 - 2014-02-16 00:07:52 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).



wrong.

The LP conversions on the pirate faction ships is actually pretty crappy, along the lines of a selling implants for one of the empire navies, they make under 1000isk per LP. Angle space goes from Tenerfis to I think Scalding Pass (I think its been a while since I was up there), Serpentis from Fade to Fountan, Gurista from Pure Blind around to Tenal.

The drones are a goodly number of regions, but its going to be a minute before there is any volume coming out of there, if you haven't noticed there is a bit of a war going on in the area, and Solar wants their traditional home back.


I can't really make sense of this. Who's wrong?
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2338 - 2014-02-16 00:11:29 UTC
Divi Filus wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Divi Filus wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
It cannot get cheaper. There is no rational incentive to produce them at all if they get cheaper. Their price is dictated by the price of sisters probes, implants, cruisers, probe launchers and frigates since Nestor production competes for LP against the production of these other LP-store items.


I can't help but feel that you're willfully ignoring the potential effects of the drone drops. You think people produce Nightmares, Machariels, or Rattlesnakes because they're the most profitable LP-to-ISK converters in their respective LP stores? They're not even close. BPC drops remove their dependance on the LP market value and drive their costs way down. Hell, it was barely more than a year ago that Machariels were as or more expensive than Nestors are now (and fully twice their current market value).



wrong.

The LP conversions on the pirate faction ships is actually pretty crappy, along the lines of a selling implants for one of the empire navies, they make under 1000isk per LP. Angle space goes from Tenerfis to I think Scalding Pass (I think its been a while since I was up there), Serpentis from Fade to Fountan, Gurista from Pure Blind around to Tenal.

The drones are a goodly number of regions, but its going to be a minute before there is any volume coming out of there, if you haven't noticed there is a bit of a war going on in the area, and Solar wants their traditional home back.


I can't really make sense of this. Who's wrong?



I mis-read the quote.

I'll go back and fix it.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2339 - 2014-02-16 00:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Until someone does the maths, using data available in eve-central, everyone is likely to be wrong.

If drones drop something else other than nestors, I can concede that it's possible that the Nestor's price will be depressed to ~450m as it should be.

If they don't then there is no point running them for Nestors, because Nestors won't sell at a higher price*

The Market in Nestors will not unstick in this case.

* this is my opinion. I could be wrong about this number, but it is certainly the clearing price for me.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2340 - 2014-02-16 00:14:32 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Heh these guys who think Nestor is going stay at 1.6B make me laugh.

HAHAHA

^ See, Just like that. Nestor will be worth around 800K when all is said and done...because "balance".



Its not worth 800k

800k I'll just drop a Thanatos, that is cheaper to buy AND cheaper to lose. If I drop 800k on a battleship I want performance.

Not slow ass logi with the DPS of a cruiser and no range.