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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#501 - 2014-02-14 07:01:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Yep, a workaround which doesn't break the rules and doesn't cause any game-breaking complications. It's a creative use of game tools.

That's where we differ, as most workarounds I have seen and used are eventually classified as Exploits, and since this workaround is allowing someone to hit an 'I WIN' button while bypassing standard High Sec aggression mechanics and profiting from it ... Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck... Exploit.

I do agree that it is not a 'Current' exploit but it sure seems like it needs to be visited by more official minds than a JAFS, (Just Another F*****g Subscriber).

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#502 - 2014-02-14 07:14:28 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
most workarounds I have seen and used are eventually classified as Exploits

Only the ones which break the game.

Quote:
since this workaround is allowing someone to hit an 'I WIN' button while bypassing standard High Sec aggression mechanics and profiting from it ... Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck... Exploit.

Except bumping does none of those things.

Oh god.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#503 - 2014-02-14 07:39:40 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
most workarounds I have seen and used are eventually classified as Exploits

Only the ones which break the game.

Quote:
since this workaround is allowing someone to hit an 'I WIN' button while bypassing standard High Sec aggression mechanics and profiting from it ... Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, sounds like a duck... Exploit.

Except bumping does none of those things.

Hence my quote from Sir Winston Churchill, It doesn't matter how many times the argument is given and how many ways it is described you still refuse to see the valid points given by your opposition.

If someone is forcibly stopping you from leaving they are essentially aggressing you. And no matter how many times you post 'No it isn't' with your fingers in your ears screaming 'nananananana' the statement is still true.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#504 - 2014-02-14 08:41:03 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Hence my quote from Sir Winston Churchill, It doesn't matter how many times the argument is given and how many ways it is described you still refuse to see the valid points given by your opposition.

I feel it's more appropriately applied to yourself.

Quote:
If someone is forcibly stopping you from leaving they are essentially aggressing you.

No one is stopping you from leaving, they're just preventing you from travelling in the direction you want to go in. Take a detour.

Oh god.
DSpite Culhach
#505 - 2014-02-14 08:49:06 UTC
WARNING: Purely as a food for thought experiment - its a wall of text.
I put it in F&ID : Sorry, I was a bit bored, and just dumped brain to paper.

A different take on bumping, deep space, and CONCORD

If you do read it and you're a freighter pilot, what problem would you see in such a system?
What about if you like ganking stuff?
Also, do you think such a system could be exploited either way in other cases?

I apparently have no idea what I'm doing.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#506 - 2014-02-14 09:53:08 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Hence my quote from Sir Winston Churchill, It doesn't matter how many times the argument is given and how many ways it is described you still refuse to see the valid points given by your opposition.

I feel it's more appropriately applied to yourself.

Quote:
If someone is forcibly stopping you from leaving they are essentially aggressing you.

No one is stopping you from leaving, they're just preventing you from travelling in the direction you want to go in. Take a detour.

So now you are down to troll responses, adding nothing to the discussion. This is why we can't have nice things.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Paul Tsukaya
Doomheim
#507 - 2014-02-14 10:59:28 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Quote:
In highsec harassing another person is supposed to mean the automatic loss of your ship.

No it isn't.

Here's my point. Tackling a mission running battleship in highsec involves less risk than tackling a mission running battleship in lowsec.

I think that's nonsensical.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#508 - 2014-02-14 11:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
Paul Tsukaya wrote:
Riot Girl wrote:
Quote:
In highsec harassing another person is supposed to mean the automatic loss of your ship.

No it isn't.

Here's my point. Tackling a mission running battleship in highsec involves less risk than tackling a mission running battleship in lowsec.

I think that's nonsensical.




I thought we closed this debate?


So because someone says 'we're taking things out of context' suddenly it's open season again?


You're grossly assuming with this statement here alone.

Also assuming CCP have not considered freighter ganking with their bumping statement. Bumping is still a valid strategy. Against what it doesn't matter, Supers, Miners, Freighters, battleships, bumping targets off gate or station, it's a valid tactic. Just because You're in a Freighter doesn't make it a special case.



Further, Harassing someone in high sec does NOT mean the automatic loss of your ship. Bump them, war dec the, hire mercs on them, hang around in all their missions, steal their loot, shoot their tractor units... all of these are valid forms of 'harassment' that are allowed in high sec and do not automatically warrant ship loss. The only time you 'automatically lose your ship' is when you go criminal.

Targeted, extended harassment is something else entirely. I once had a complete idiot of a player get kicked out of my alt's old corporation. He then spent the next two months or so off and on war deccing the corporation. This guy would then take a cerberus and siege the modules on one of our POS's from outside their range for HOURS a night. We'd log in next day and rep them back. He further failed twice to gank my alt's barge. After bout a month and half, I petitioned CCP about whether this was harassment or not and their ruling was no, it was acceptable game play. That it might suck, but he's not breaking rules. You feel special cause someone bothers you for a couple hours? Pffft. Dock up, contract me your stuff, then log off and uninstall.



Goldiiee, you're "So now you are down to troll responses, adding nothing to the discussion. This is why we can't have nice things." Is far more a troll 'I have nothing valid left to stay' response than the sensible response provided by Riot of 'take a Detour.' If YOU can't contribute to the conversation, go back to your room and let the adults talk. YOU are the one refusing to listen, with not only your fingers but the entirety of your arms shoved in your ears screaming 'nananananana' at the top of your lungs. Further, Bumping has been around FOREVER. CCP have had time to class it as an exploit if they chose to(as they did *To Ewarp tackling* only days after a Low Sec Pirate corp ganked a titan by catching it before it could initiate it's log in Ewarp) but have chosen not to.... Why, you might ask?


Because it's NOT an exploit.

*Inserting explanatory statement*

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#509 - 2014-02-14 12:27:10 UTC
You do know we are discussing High Sec mechanics right?

Further, Harassing someone in high sec does NOT mean the automatic loss of your ship. Bump them, war dec the, hire mercs on them, hang around in all their missions, steal their loot, shoot their tractor units... all of these are valid forms of 'harassment' that are allowed in high sec and do not automatically warrant ship loss. The only time you 'automatically lose your ship' is when you go criminal.


All of these things require the harasser to go suspect or have made a War dec and paid the appropriate fees or some other means of agreeing to be shot at for their actions, nothing about Bumping Freighters is in line with this paragraph so we can delete it and move on.

'take a Detour.'

Really? We all play this game, or at least I am assuming we do. Once the Freighter is bumped in any direction without a 'warp to' directly in line of travel he will not be able to warp till his direction of travel is corrected. Any attempt to say the pilot is in control and just needs to pick a different destination (Detour) is a troll response or just ignorant.

Bumping has been around FOREVER. CCP have had time to class it as an exploit if they chose to(as they did *To Ewarp tackling* only days after a Low Sec Pirate corp ganked a titan by catching it before it could initiate it's log in Ewarp) but have chosen not to.... Why, you might ask?

Because it's NOT an exploit.

Yep, It was not an exploit till someone pointed out to CCP that there was no way to avoid this and possibly save their ship after the bumping starts, Hmmm sounds familiar. The added benefit of this argument is they made it an Exploit in Low/Nul sec; So in a sector of space where you can shoot the crap out of anyone you like for whatever reason feels good at the time they saw fit to make a change. Now consider High Sec where you don't get that 'kill them with impunity' privilege (Not that you could from a Freighter anyways) and it looks like a fair case for a discussion about 'Exploit'.

If this conversation disturbs you that much, log into the game, Contract your stuff to the guy in the top of the local list, then log off and uninstall EVE, then Windows.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2014-02-14 12:51:04 UTC
Goldiiee... I suggest First grade again bro... your reading ability is on par with Pre-K. Further, I suggest Eve uni so you can learn some basic Eve. You are choosing to 'delete' everything that you can't be assed to read or think about, so of course you can't learn. You are the poster child for unteachable Carebear.


You go ahead and shoot the proteus in your mission who's taking your can. He'll point you, his logi will warp in, stay out of your range and he'll pick you apart.


You don't need to go suspect or agree to be shot to Hire mercs. And half the time people are HOPING you shoot them so they can point you and kill you.



I'm also really tired of having to explain that once your bumped isn't the time to start crying 'exploit.' If you've allowed yourself to get there cause you can't take the basic precautions listed over and over in this thread, that is your fault, not CCP's, not anyone elses. Yours. Man up and accept responsibility for your lack of preparation or care. Once you've allowed yourself to be bumped because you can't be bothered to take care of your crap is WAY past the point of being able to cry foul. That's just careless and asking to be ganked.


You are also woefully uninformed, ignorant, and foolish. Thread after thread after thread after thread after thread after hundreds, maybe even thousands of freighters lost to being careless and getting bumped. CCP is still okay with this. 1 Titan was destroyed and CCP ruled. Why do you think the opinion will change? What makes you think anything is different? Bumping is an acceptable and allowed mechanic. You assume because Tackling a Titan Ewarping in from Log in was called an Exploit that it is REMOTELY the same case as careless Freighter pilots? Lol. In the case of the Titan, he did everything correctly. He had no timers, did nothing to endanger himself, as far as a Titan is concerned, he stayed Docked, the only time in Eve you should be 100% safe. But Even though you log off safely, the game still spawns you in space, and forces you to warp back to your tower. There is nothing a player can do to avoid this if they own a super, as supers cannot dock. Your freighter has a huge list of things it can do to avoid being bumped in the first place, and an even larger one for how to deal with a bumper and gank. You just fail to acknowledge it, and what's worse, fail to adapt. This is where every 'Halp I've been bumped!' thread will fail. You fail to adapt, you fail to learn, and you fail to take precaution. Uninstall. 'Nuff Said.


Uninstall.


What bothers me is how ignorant and unteachable people like you are. Eve is a complex game, its learning curve harsh. MOST people learn though. Then there are special snow flakes like you..... Go back to WoW. I hear you'll fit right in. Eve is not the game for you.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
djentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#511 - 2014-02-14 12:56:34 UTC
Well, i'll add my two cents to this.

Something needs to change, and I am not a freighter player. But I have experienced some serious frustration with the bumping.

From a technical standpoint - it just does not make any sense whatsoever. A tiny little frigate flying at super fast speeds towards a HUGE craft, in a ideal universe - it would be like a bug on the windshield. I understand we can't have that.

But being able to use a single t1 frig with some plates and a MWD to totally tackle a giant ship (and yes, it is a tackle - the ship cannot warp away, cannot burn to gate, cannot do anything at all) without any sort of aggression mechanic being employed is a bit on the uber silly side.

More then x bumps in a time period should start a suspect timer. The action is hostile, same as applying some webs and a point to a target. Under current CONCORD mechanics - a tackle in empire space is going to result in the tackler going boom.

Perhaps a suspect timer is a nice middle ground between "you can tackle a frieghter in a ship worth no more then a couple million ISK in high sec with without any criminal flags going up" and "that's a crimewatch action and the tackler should be condordokken"
djentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#512 - 2014-02-14 13:01:12 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Once you've allowed yourself to be bumped because you can't be bothered to take care of your crap is WAY past the point of being able to cry foul. That's just careless and asking to be ganked.


(trimmed generally hostile bulk of post)

For reals, without the rage, explain to me what counter a freighter pilot has (beyond the 2 I have listed) against a single lone dessie with a MWD and some plates catching them after de-clock when warping to another gate. I'm not being rude or sarcastic, I really want to know. I've never flown a capital size ship, so I have no first hand experience.

As I see it:

Call friends to gank that ship, resulting in CONCORD flagging them as the aggressive party, and giving kill rights to the tackler.

Self-Destruct to deny the gankers some of the pinata.

What else is there?

Counter-bumping does not seem possible, but i've never tried it. Anyone tested this?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#513 - 2014-02-14 13:18:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
djentropy Ovaert wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Once you've allowed yourself to be bumped because you can't be bothered to take care of your crap is WAY past the point of being able to cry foul. That's just careless and asking to be ganked.


(trimmed generally hostile bulk of post)

For reals, without the rage, explain to me what counter a freighter pilot has (beyond the 2 I have listed) against a single lone dessie with a MWD and some plates catching them after de-clock when warping to another gate. I'm not being rude or sarcastic, I really want to know. I've never flown a capital size ship, so I have no first hand experience.

As I see it:

Call friends to gank that ship, resulting in CONCORD flagging them as the aggressive party, and giving kill rights to the tackler.

Self-Destruct to deny the gankers some of the pinata.

What else is there?

Counter-bumping does not seem possible, but i've never tried it. Anyone tested this?



"Generally Hostile...."


Lol. Read the thread. It's been listed time and again.


But for your amusement since you can't be bothered to read the rest of the thread:

1) Use A webbing Loki or Rapier: 3 or so Webs and a few Sebo's. P much insta locks and reduces speed to ~10m/s. Almost an insta warp. And if you're concerned about the aggression timer, either use 2 of these, or warp to station each time in between.

2) Use Red Frog. They charge like, 10m isk or something insanely low, and give you up to 1b isk collateral per contract. Do it right, they move your stuff for you really cheap, and if they get ganked, you make money.

3) Use an MWD Orca, 1 pulse and your off.

4) Use a transport/blockade runner

5) have your frenz give you escort in:
5A) Damnation(Mindlink with Freighter pilot having low grade slaves at least) and augoror's
5B) Logistics and Griffins(Prelock any gank class ship that hits the field, perma jam it soon as it aggresses)
5C) Cheap gank cruisers. Trade a roughly 30m cruiser for your freighter
5D) Any combination of the above+several others.

6) Avoid heavily camped systems(Niarja) or take extra care through them by one of the means above

7) Understand that a player CAN do everything on this list, and on occasion still get ganked. This is how Eve should be. Never 100% Certain. Sometimes things just go bad, or you get unlucky. But doing things on this list will massively reduce your chances of being ganked

8) While a bit impractical for some logistics plans, you can use a JF to reduce your risk by avoiding certain systems

9) Accept that in Eve, anything can and does happen, the nature of the game is PVP which requires losses and victories.

10) Learn to assess situations and make informed decisions about them

11) Go out and learn what it is to gank so you can learn how to avoid being ganked. Learn why a gank happens, what the gankers look for, and where Ganking happens. This all helps to avoid becoming Ganked.

12) Understand Eve is about Choices. Would you prefer to lose a 30m t1 fit rupture or a freighter full of your hard work?

13) do ANYTHING to be prepared for it rather than cry foul once you're in the situation.



I think that covers a good portion of it. Goldiiee, read it too. You need it.


EDIT: Didn't see Counter bumping bit. You CAN counter bump. It's tricky, but it can be done. I don't like it as a solution as much because it is a 'oh well I'm already in trouble so now I've got to rely on some pretty precise piloting to save me' solution, rather than a proper, thought out solution.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#514 - 2014-02-14 13:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Aideron
On the subject of miner bumping, CCP stated that you can bump people but if they make an attempt to leave system and go somewhere you are not allowed to follow them around and keep bumping them, as it becomes personal harassment at that point.

With that precedent in mind, if you keep bumping somebody for a long period of time and give them no opportunity to leave of their own volition (in highsec, anyway) I think that might end up being deemed harassment by CCP as well. We'll see.
djentropy Ovaert
The Conference Elite
Safety.
#515 - 2014-02-14 13:57:02 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:


(clip as to not spam wall of text)

I think that covers a good portion of it. Goldiiee, read it too. You need it.


EDIT: Didn't see Counter bumping bit. You CAN counter bump. It's tricky, but it can be done. I don't like it as a solution as much because it is a 'oh well I'm already in trouble so now I've got to rely on some pretty precise piloting to save me' solution, rather than a proper, thought out solution.


Thank you! I saw some of those ideas in the thread (I really did read the whole thing, but there's a LOT of info there) and your list was quite concise and makes sense to me. To be fair, a large chunk of the list seemed to be "Don't fly a freighter" - but I can see how that would apply at times (I've seen plenty of freighters brought down carrying an amount of goods that would fit easy in a little t1 industrial!)

Thanks for the well thought out and informative post, I learned something and you changed my mind in regards to how I feel about this. Again, I've never flown a freighter - I can really only use the experience of others to come up with a opinion on this :)
Mag's
Azn Empire
#516 - 2014-02-14 14:27:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Jta Grl wrote:
I'd like to add my 2 cents to the discussion. No member of CCP ever said that bumping as an agressive maneuver is allowed under any circumstances. What they said was that miner bumping was not an exploit. And they said under the context of a controversy provoked by a game institution dedicated to do push afk miners away from their juice: http://www.minerbumping.com/p/the-code.html
Another completly different kind of bumping got an exploit notification from CCP: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/
An then there's the freighter bumping that is completly different from these two and and didn't got an official statement yet.
So stop linking decontextualized declarations from devs.
Try reading the thread on bumping and stop bringing your own context into what you think it should mean. It's a very simple statement, that can in no way be misunderstood.

"CCP considers the act of bumping a normal game mechanic, and does not class the bumping of another player’s ship as an exploit."

No where does it say this is regarding mining only. No where does it state this is regarding only mining ships. At least I use the correct information and proper sources to back up my argument. You seem reliant upon third party codes and unrelated shield/access exploits.

If we take your supposed logic on this, we would have to form the conclusion that:
A. The act of bumping is a normal game mechanic, except it is not.
B. The act of bumping is not an exploit, except it is.

Yes, no. Your stance is quite frankly, ridiculous.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#517 - 2014-02-14 14:33:36 UTC
Johnny Aideron wrote:
On the subject of miner bumping, CCP stated that you can bump people but if they make an attempt to leave system and go somewhere you are not allowed to follow them around and keep bumping them, as it becomes personal harassment at that point.

With that precedent in mind, if you keep bumping somebody for a long period of time and give them no opportunity to leave of their own volition (in highsec, anyway) I think that might end up being deemed harassment by CCP as well. We'll see.
We have already covered this and I have posted a link that shows just how wrong you are.
Read the bumping thread again, read the follow up reply and comprehend what was said. Then read the link to Evesearch I posted. Note that that thread is someone complaining about being bumped for an hour or more. CCP do NOT consider bumping a freighter as harassment.

Now I would think that if you did manage to escape and ended up moving a couple of systems out, then were bumped again, you might have a claim of harassment.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Johnny Aideron
Order of Rouvenor
#518 - 2014-02-14 14:38:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Johnny Aideron
It's you who needs to improve your reading comprehension. Firstly, you keep claiming that CCP does not consider bumping to be harassment, but actually it is dependent upon the context in which the bumping takes place. Some incidents of bumping are considered to be harassment. You should stop cherry-picking CCP quotes from out of the context of their complete statements. Secondly, I was speculating about what action CCP might take based on their past actions, I didn't say that freighter bumping has been defined as an exploit by CCP as of now. Equally, there is nothing stopping them from doing so in the future.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#519 - 2014-02-14 14:39:50 UTC
Johnny Aideron wrote:
It's you who needs to improve your reading comprehension. Firstly, you keep claiming that CCP does not consider bumping to be harassment, but actually it is dependent upon the context in which the bumping takes place. Some incidents of bumping are considered to be harassment. You should stop cherry-picking CCP quotes from out of the context of their complete statements. Secondly, I was speculating about what action CCP might take based on their past actions, I didn't say that freighter bumping has been defined as an exploit as of now.

Yes and please outline what they are. Taking into account what was said. Then reply.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#520 - 2014-02-14 14:41:57 UTC
I can see there is some passion for killing freighters here, and the same old mentality of blame the victim for being pretty that permeates the mind of predators everywhere.

As to the list:

1. Actual good suggestion

2. ? Not about bumping...

3. ? Not a freighter, but Ok...Orca's can be fit with stuff.

4. ? Not a freighter, but Ok... they can be fit with stuff.

5. Fair suggestion, even it it is pretty much just #1 repeated.

6. ? Not about bumping. Good advice for any form of ganking I suppose.

7. ? Not even about flying a ship at all. Pure Hyperbole, EVE rocks for pirates...

8. ? Not a freighter. I suppose it would avoid bumping for some circumstances in low and null where they can be used.

9. ? This is the same as 7. Rock on...

10. ? Decent Advice I suppose. Not about bumping, nor flying a freighter.

11. ? Not about bumping, nor flying a freighter. This is more of a suggestion on how to accomplish 6 & 10.

12. ? Not about Bumping, Nor flying a freighter. same as 7 and 9... Rock on and on I suppose.

13. ? Not about bumping, or flying a freighter, nor even an actual suggestion. More like you ran out of wind making up more bogus list entries.

So the entire list of what to do about being bumped for potentially hours in high sec boils down to bring an escort willing to die for you in place of your freighter, or hope you get lucky on a trajectory upon being bumped while webbed. I suppose just not playing would also be a fair counter.

The main complaint, as I read it, was not about being ganked in and of itself. It's about using bumping as an indefinite means of tackle. Doing something about bumping does not stop ganking. It does mean the gankers have to actually be present to get the job done. In the end, that fight becomes a 1v1, with the guy driving a freighter being crippled---once the bumping starts there is no counter, no skill to be used, no end to the tackle. That fight is over and all power is in the hands of the pirate. The countermeasure to something should never be "Don't be there". That's not playing, that's paying to ship spin.