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Crime & Punishment

 
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The Recantment of PVP In High Sec

First post
Author
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2014-02-07 02:21:02 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If the entire universe is dedicated to pvp, why not just get rid of non-pvp activities entirely? We can all buy extra plex to finance our warring - now there's a business model to make EA proud.
Pretty much everything in Eve is either there to fund and drive PvP or is actual PvP, which incidentally isn't confined to shooting each other in the face, if you're competing with another player, it's PvP.

Please enlighten us as to what you consider is and is not PvP, then we can correct any misconceptions you may have about so called non-PvP activities.

Quote:
Get rid of security standings too, and let people camp outside newbie stations with T3s.
That's expressly forbidden, picking on newbies in newbie systems will get you a swift kick up the arse from CCP.

Quote:
All the 5-10 year old players can have fun shooting each other while those of us who don't have 50m skillpoints and ISK built up over a few years spend 3 months training skills and brushing up on our station trading.
Eve is at its core a PvP game, the recently published official New Player FAQ says so repeatedly. You don't need 50M SP or billions of ISK to compete in Eve, using your brain usually suffices.


As you said, there is pvp, and there are activities to fund and drive pvp. I use missions and salvaging to fund my pvp activities. If you think missions are easy, try to solo a lvl 4 in a t1 fitted Brutix. I've made a number of forays into lowsec which generally end in me being exploded by someone with much higher skills and a shiny ship. I know they have much higher skills because the killmail shows t2 weapons, drones, and ammo; and their warrior IIs are doing 150 dps. Exactly how should I use my brain to defeat someone whose ship outperforms mine in every way because they've played longer? All I can do is choose to not fight, and look for easier targets, or fly in a frigate gang until we get jumped by a bigger blob or a neut/drone infested stratios. Regardless, pvp with my skills and inexperience is going to result in lost ships, and even t1 Atrons add up.

So I need to generate ISK, and I can't do that if my missions are constantly being invaded by bot aspirants running logi support on their 2nd and 3rd accounts. I can either fight extremely unfavorable odds or I can just give them my loot. And having 40m worth of mission loot robbed may not be much to you, with your years old account, but to me it's a serious problem. I should be able to make money without having to fight scumbag griefers who are too cowardly to fight anything but newbies. CCP is not obligated to protect your right to bait and harass people who by simple virtue of the skill system can't fight back. Go find a real fight.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2014-02-07 02:24:02 UTC
Jebediah Beane wrote:
In all honesty I think some of you (mainly the OMG PVP IS ONLY LOWSEC YOU EVIL PERSON) are missing the point of this entire thread.

Some of you feel that this should have been removed. Some of you feel that PVP should be removed from high sec entirely. To all of you who are in these categories, you're completely out of touch with this game.

Again. Yes. I say again, CCP validated this mechanic as intended until recently and quietly tried shove a fix under the covers for it. After backing it?

Many theories are taking place as to why this is the case. I do agree that enough carebears who only want to grind a few years of the game in mission rats and eventually unsubscribe because of burn out threatened to quit. Then CCP caved to them, yet again.

We're constantly seeing small nickle and dime nerfs to highsec combat and warfare that are just now being recognized as a progression towards some sort of happy lovey type utopia for high sec space. I can only suspect that CCP is indeed now chasing the money for those who want this utopia and want to keep those subscriptions.

Now I know discussing petitions is slightly frowned upon here in the forums. But ironically I find it necessary to say that I have petitioned this change in the mechanics. The GM's response was (in summary) that they are in no way allowed to discuss decisions to change game mechanics. The GM also recommended that I come to the forums to post my questions and concern so that the Dev's who constantly monitor the forums would provide a response. I have been asking for a dev response since the 28th of January and have heard nothing.

This suggests that CCP is only interested in money at this point. I remember another company that was once great and loved by its customer base until they became addicted to the money... EA.

So again CCP. What gives?


Go to lowsec. Problem solved. What's your obsession with blasting people who can't fight back?
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#63 - 2014-02-07 02:26:44 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
If the entire universe is dedicated to pvp, why not just get rid of non-pvp activities entirely? We can all buy extra plex to finance our warring - now there's a business model to make EA proud.
Pretty much everything in Eve is either there to fund and drive PvP or is actual PvP, which incidentally isn't confined to shooting each other in the face, if you're competing with another player, it's PvP.

Please enlighten us as to what you consider is and is not PvP, then we can correct any misconceptions you may have about so called non-PvP activities.

Quote:
Get rid of security standings too, and let people camp outside newbie stations with T3s.
That's expressly forbidden, picking on newbies in newbie systems will get you a swift kick up the arse from CCP.

Quote:
All the 5-10 year old players can have fun shooting each other while those of us who don't have 50m skillpoints and ISK built up over a few years spend 3 months training skills and brushing up on our station trading.
Eve is at its core a PvP game, the recently published official New Player FAQ says so repeatedly. You don't need 50M SP or billions of ISK to compete in Eve, using your brain usually suffices.


As you said, there is pvp, and there are activities to fund and drive pvp. I use missions and salvaging to fund my pvp activities. If you think missions are easy, try to solo a lvl 4 in a t1 fitted Brutix. I've made a number of forays into lowsec which generally end in me being exploded by someone with much higher skills and a shiny ship. I know they have much higher skills because the killmail shows t2 weapons, drones, and ammo; and their warrior IIs are doing 150 dps. Exactly how should I use my brain to defeat someone whose ship outperforms mine in every way because they've played longer? All I can do is choose to not fight, and look for easier targets, or fly in a frigate gang until we get jumped by a bigger blob or a neut/drone infested stratios. Regardless, pvp with my skills and inexperience is going to result in lost ships, and even t1 Atrons add up.

So I need to generate ISK, and I can't do that if my missions are constantly being invaded by bot aspirants running logi support on their 2nd and 3rd accounts. I can either fight extremely unfavorable odds or I can just give them my loot. And having 40m worth of mission loot robbed may not be much to you, with your years old account, but to me it's a serious problem. I should be able to make money without having to fight scumbag griefers who are too cowardly to fight anything but newbies. CCP is not obligated to protect your right to bait and harass people who by simple virtue of the skill system can't fight back. Go find a real fight.


Join Brave Newbies

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.

Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2014-02-07 02:32:30 UTC
1. There is no such thing as a bot aspirant. A person either bots, which is bannable, or doesn't. There term is a well-poisoning fallacy and a sign of a lack of ability to think critically. Using it pretty much means you have no business having an opinion on your own. The same goes for a few other bad habit terms, but no need to digress.

2. Highsec pvp is now back to where it was before the MTU was introduced. Quit whining. Mission ganking is carebear ganking.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#65 - 2014-02-07 03:59:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I use missions and salvaging to fund my pvp activities. If you think missions are easy, try to solo a lvl 4 in a t1 fitted Brutix.
I run 4's solo in a Drake, you're not particularly special in that regard, many people run them in BCs; some for fun, some because they have poor skills, others because they think battleships are flying turds.

Quote:
So I need to generate ISK, and I can't do that if my missions are constantly being invaded by bot aspirants running logi support on their 2nd and 3rd accounts. I can either fight extremely unfavorable odds or I can just give them my loot. And having 40m worth of mission loot robbed may not be much to you, with your years old account, but to me it's a serious problem.
Aww diddums, learn to deal with it or GTFO. You're not the only person whose missions get invaded and their loot stolen, if someone steals loot from you and you engage, their logi support inherits their flags, which means you can shoot at them too, take down the logi, then take down the thief, It's not always a wise idea though. The logi is far more likely to be other players than alts anyway.

I notice that you're in a 30+ man player corp, you could always get on comms and ask them for help, if the mission invader is suspect then anybody, including your corpmates can shoot at them. The corp description says they indulge in PvP so they should be up for some free kills. Set traps, think outside the box rather than moaning on the forums about people stealing your stuff. Or is that too much effort?

With regards to the loss of loot, despite the age of my account, I'm in no way space rich, my current wallet balance is under 200 mill. I play for less than 5-10 hours a week, I make enough to pay for plex and have a little leftover to buy new toys. Losing loot is a fact of life, I factor it into the way I play, the LP store is much more lucrative anyway.

Quote:
I should be able to make money without having to fight scumbag griefers who are too cowardly to fight anything but newbies.
If you're in a BC you're not a newb, although from your attitude you're definitely a noob (these terms are not interchangeable). You're not entitled to make money without interference from other players, sandbox means that you are free to try and play the way you want to, it also means that others can try and prevent you from doing so, because that's the way they want to play. Don't like it? Leave.

Quote:
CCP is not obligated to protect your right to bait and harass people who by simple virtue of the skill system can't fight back. Go find a real fight.
They're not obligated to protect you from the attentions of people that want to steal your stuff either. It's not that people can't fight back, they chose not to fight back, that's their choice, stop blaming others for your personal shortcomings.

On a side note, I'm not a so called griefer, I'm actually a highsec carebear, the difference between you and me is that I acknowledge and respect that one of the cornerstones of Eve is that people are free to try and ruin my day, I also accept that Eve is a PvP game, which is why I'll always be better at it than you.

People like you are why carebears have such a bad reputation, stop slurring my chosen playstyle with your idiocy. When you quit, and you will quit, I volunteer to be the recipient of all of your stuff. You come across as a self entitled arse, which will get you all sorts of attention from the people you seem to despise, have fun with that. I'm sure your tears will be of the highest quality.

BTW your use of bot aspirant is terrible, botting is used to complete repetitive and boring tasks, ganking idiots like you requires more interaction with the client than a bot can handle.

TL;DR HTFU and stop whining like an obnoxious spoilt little brat, or foxtrot oscar back to whichever rock you crawled out from under.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#66 - 2014-02-07 21:46:28 UTC
Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform with the ad hominem why don't you?

If your playstyle consists of bashing newer players in hisec with vastly superior resources and skills, you are a tard. There's just no way around it. I can see an argument for an utterly darwinian game just for fun; if you think human society should operate that way you're 1) a sociopath and 2) don't understand evolution.

I will repeat myself SLOWLY - go to low or null and try to grief someone that can shoot back. I reject your philosophy and I don't plan on leaving. I'm going to train my skills to a reasonable level and I'm going to kill you and your friends.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2014-02-07 22:20:00 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
2. Highsec pvp is now back to where it was before the MTU was introduced. Quit whining. Mission ganking is carebear ganking.


It is not back to where it was, as addressed in my post. The change to drone AI has affected more than deployables.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2014-02-07 22:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Sierra Tango Foxtrot Uniform with the ad hominem why don't you?

If your playstyle consists of bashing newer players in hisec with vastly superior resources and skills, you are a tard. There's just no way around it. I can see an argument for an utterly darwinian game just for fun; if you think human society should operate that way you're 1) a sociopath and 2) don't understand evolution.

I will repeat myself SLOWLY - go to low or null and try to grief someone that can shoot back. I reject your philosophy and I don't plan on leaving. I'm going to train my skills to a reasonable level and I'm going to kill you and your friends.


Oh cool...

New War Targets.

On another note.

I would like to point out your corp also wardecs corps.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#69 - 2014-02-08 01:31:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I can see an argument for an utterly darwinian game just for fun
That's just it, Eve is a Darwinian game, it's Lord Of The Flies with spaceships.

Quote:
if you think human society should operate that way you're 1) a sociopath and 2) don't understand evolution.
Irrelevant, this is a game, whether people decide to play as white hats or black hats has little or no relation to their real life persona. The clue in in the letters RPG tacked onto the end of MMO.

Quote:
I will repeat myself SLOWLY - go to low or null and try to grief someone that can shoot back.
Why should people have to go to low or nullsec? Highsec is just as valid an area for shooting people in the face and is a target rich environment, it just has a few more penalties for doing so.
Quote:
I reject your philosophy and I don't plan on leaving. I'm going to train my skills to a reasonable level and I'm going to kill you and your friends.
Good luck with both of those things, if you want to come after me personally you can generally find this character in Minmatar space, make sure to bring some friends so I can waste their time while I do some trading.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#70 - 2014-02-08 02:53:31 UTC
Golly gosh, social darwinism is a really pernicious idea isn't it? At least it's good for making it seem reasonable to force weak people into fights.

Get out of highsec you slobs, your whines about highsec are redonkulous.


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.

Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2014-02-08 20:29:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiryen O'Bannon
Masao Kurata wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
2. Highsec pvp is now back to where it was before the MTU was introduced. Quit whining. Mission ganking is carebear ganking.


It is not back to where it was, as addressed in my post. The change to drone AI has affected more than deployables.


Irrelevant. The conditions under which you can legally engage without CONCORD intervention are back where they were. The mechanics of this intervention are what define high sec pvp, given the absolute and extreme effect of CONCORD. Drome AI and the like are nitpick trivialities. Since agressive drones bypassed player choice to engage or not, they were never a valid means of generating engagements in the first place. Having drones set aggressive was not "stupid and lazy", the stupid and lazy is in relying on someone else's checkbox choices to get engagements, then crying when the exploit gets fixed.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-02-13 21:26:14 UTC
I could train a scanner alt I suppose and go grief shitfit newbs in lvl 2 and 3 missions. I just don't see the point. Rather like beating a ******** child with a stick - only a particularly broken individual takes any enjoyment from the exercise.
Sublime Rage
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2014-02-13 23:01:33 UTC
Find other ways to kill missioners,move along.Eve is ever-changing
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#74 - 2014-02-14 15:11:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
I could train a scanner alt I suppose and go grief shitfit newbs in lvl 2 and 3 missions. I just don't see the point. Rather like beating a ******** child with a stick - only a particularly broken individual takes any enjoyment from the exercise.

The part your missing is where said re!arded child is driving a BMW 7 Series sedan with the premium trim package while still having just a learners permit, and he agrees to play chicken with me in my tweaked Honda Civic for pink-slips, when I show up in his neighborhood and gun my engine at him in a playful come-hither manner.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#75 - 2014-02-14 15:20:39 UTC
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
Masao Kurata wrote:
Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
2. Highsec pvp is now back to where it was before the MTU was introduced. Quit whining. Mission ganking is carebear ganking.


It is not back to where it was, as addressed in my post. The change to drone AI has affected more than deployables.


Irrelevant. The conditions under which you can legally engage without CONCORD intervention are back where they were. The mechanics of this intervention are what define high sec pvp, given the absolute and extreme effect of CONCORD. Drome AI and the like are nitpick trivialities. Since agressive drones bypassed player choice to engage or not, they were never a valid means of generating engagements in the first place. Having drones set aggressive was not "stupid and lazy", the stupid and lazy is in relying on someone else's checkbox choices to get engagements, then crying when the exploit gets fixed.


Eh, true but somewhat not...

Drones on aggressive is still not a good idea. Things like locking you out of a gate or station, ect.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#76 - 2014-02-14 17:19:13 UTC
I can't believe this is still going. There is hope for this forum after all!

A little perspective on the sociopath thing. I'm an old dude. I pay in my basement (it's true, but then again I remodelled it into my man cave, so I think I've earned my right to be in the basement). I've had a job since I was 16. A decent portion of that in the military. I get investigated routinely by the FBI - background checks (standard policy for my occupation). I have annual psych evals (again a job requirement). I've raised 3 children that have all been both outstanding atheletes in their chosen sports and all graduated in the top 5 of their senior class (my little one is graduating this year and she's in the running for validictorian - fingers crossed for her please - she's worked hard for it!). I'm a volunteer fireman (certified up to and including incident commander in hazmat operations) I do confined space rescue and though I've never done it - I am trained in high angle rescue. I've coached, mentored and generally helped a lot of kids grow up in the town I live in. I'm the dad ever kid knows and says 'hi' to. I'm an avid gardener. I love to bake and tbh I'm pretty good at it (home grown blueberry pie!!).

Also, while idling in empire between wh I've been ganking high end mission boats in apanake.

So.... does suicide ganking a few marauders in eve really cancel out all the stuff above it??

Screw you and your pop psychology analogies. The actual professional evaluators say I'm OK.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2014-02-14 17:41:53 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
I can't believe this is still going. There is hope for this forum after all!

A little perspective on the sociopath thing. I'm an old dude. I pay in my basement (it's true, but then again I remodelled it into my man cave, so I think I've earned my right to be in the basement). I've had a job since I was 16. A decent portion of that in the military. I get investigated routinely by the FBI - background checks (standard policy for my occupation). I have annual psych evals (again a job requirement). I've raised 3 children that have all been both outstanding atheletes in their chosen sports and all graduated in the top 5 of their senior class (my little one is graduating this year and she's in the running for validictorian - fingers crossed for her please - she's worked hard for it!). I'm a volunteer fireman (certified up to and including incident commander in hazmat operations) I do confined space rescue and though I've never done it - I am trained in high angle rescue. I've coached, mentored and generally helped a lot of kids grow up in the town I live in. I'm the dad ever kid knows and says 'hi' to. I'm an avid gardener. I love to bake and tbh I'm pretty good at it (home grown blueberry pie!!).

Also, while idling in empire between wh I've been ganking high end mission boats in apanake.

So.... does suicide ganking a few marauders in eve really cancel out all the stuff above it??

Screw you and your pop psychology analogies. The actual professional evaluators say I'm OK.


Hazmat sucks. Nothin like sitting around bottled up with a hose for six hours while the glow-worms rake in the overtime!

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#78 - 2014-02-14 17:52:54 UTC
My personal 'worst ever' was on a submarine in the navy. We had a contractor dump all the freon from our ac units inboard while in port. They evacuated the entire ship except for one watch station - the shutdown reactor operator. It happened 40 min before I relieved the guy. So it was like dead man walking as I walked past all the evacuees (spelling??), boarded the ship and relieved the guy. I spent the next 6hrs sucking rubber while they ventillated the ship. Talk about a mask confidence builder.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#79 - 2014-02-14 17:55:26 UTC
If you don't want to sit in a suit at a hazmat incident just ask a coptometer (state trooper) if he thinks there should be flares to mark the area. It's a good way to do a flammability check without breaking out the meters.

J/K, please don't do this.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-02-14 18:00:56 UTC
A bubblehead eh? Dont know how you guys do that... I can do enclosed spaces ok.... just not 800m underwater lol..

Similar experience.... while conducting a survivability flight over Antarctica ( I got the antarctic service medal for that! ) some jackwagon tried to flush his soiled undies thru the toilet at 70k feet. It disagreed with the jet's waste disposal system... and.. well.. 72 hours of that smell. Awesome. Fckin contractors.

But, on topic, if the pilot knew I was to become an eve-sociopath, he would certainly have crashed the jet to rid the world of me. Mission runners everywhere would have remembered his sacrifice.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment