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Gang Links!
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Electric Dott
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-02-13 01:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Electric Dott
I would like some clarification on something that seems stupid to me. Firstly let me clarify, my point is from the perspective of low sec, so if you don't care about low sec, I suggest you stop reading now.

I assume we can all agree, they're a large boost to anybody recieving them. So, even though CCP have marginally made them less safe by forcing them to be outside pos shields, they're still at very little risk, despite being a major force multiplier, sitting them on a station or on a gate ready to jump out and cloak is simple. So, why is it that when somebody does something like remote sebo an outlaw, or any othere remote boost that they get suspect/criminally flagged depending on what the person recieving has shot, yet somebody recieving gang links boosts and does the same crime as the previous example and the link char isn't flagged? This would make a major difference to how passively they can be used considering the percentage of frigs/destroyers in the faction warfare areas, that could otherwise force them to jump out or dock. Considering they're commonly used in such ship type scale fights, it seems only right that they should be able to drive that advantage off, which currently they can't due to gate/station gun fire.
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
EDGE Alliance
#2 - 2014-02-13 10:28:16 UTC
more often than not, boosters tend to be alts tabbed down while flying your main, because ganglinks gimp your fit pretty badly. So, you can try to bump or alpha it, trust me, it works.
Electric Dott
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2014-02-13 19:07:04 UTC
Lina Theist wrote:
more often than not, boosters tend to be alts tabbed down while flying your main, because ganglinks gimp your fit pretty badly. So, you can try to bump or alpha it, trust me, it works.


It works aslong as the target isn't paying attention, its a pretty big assumption to say more often than not people are tabbed out, as loads of people have multiple monitors. You're not really suggesting it's working as intended due to link characters occasionally not paying attention?

This wasn't really the point either. The main point was why other remote assistance flags a character as a criminal/outlaw while gang links which arguably are the biggest boost you can recieve, do not.

Think about it from the perspective of someone in the FW areas. Most of the pvp in them is frigate/destroyer pvp. Imagine you're having a "1"v1 with somebody in a t1 frig, they are using links to significantly boost the ability of their ship, their links are situated on a gate ready to jump out and cloak at the first sign of danger. Imagine somehow you've managed to get out of their extended tackle range and warped to the boosting ship. This ship was being used against you for a criminal act/supporting a war target against you. Yet you can't engage it thanks to the protection of gate guns? That's stupid.

That differs from somebody using say a remote sebo alt to boost their main gatecamping, which rightly becomes flagged and therefore a valid target.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#4 - 2014-02-13 20:47:22 UTC

This will be messy:

So if you boost your fleet mate you go suspect? Imagine the impact his will have in highsec! (lol, poor incursion runners).

To be frank, gang links are not a targeted module, which makes giving them a suspect / criminal flag upon activation problematic. I think the real solution is simply to force links to be on-grid. They are extremely imbalancing, so forcing them on grid, while very difficult on some fleet types, is the optimal solution!
Electric Dott
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-02-13 21:10:35 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This will be messy:

So if you boost your fleet mate you go suspect? Imagine the impact his will have in highsec! (lol, poor incursion runners).

To be frank, gang links are not a targeted module, which makes giving them a suspect / criminal flag upon activation problematic. I think the real solution is simply to force links to be on-grid. They are extremely imbalancing, so forcing them on grid, while very difficult on some fleet types, is the optimal solution!


No because they're not aggressing other players. Like I said I don't see how other remote assistance modules can have different suspect/outlaw mechanics. For your example, somebody would have to go suspect/outlaw in order for the links to be flagged. It's not even like they couldn't be docked up, but it would mean in low sec that small ships could drive them into the station or into another system. Which considering the links are working against the frigs/destroyers I don't think is unreasonable.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2014-02-14 17:48:32 UTC
Electric Dott wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This will be messy:

So if you boost your fleet mate you go suspect? Imagine the impact his will have in highsec! (lol, poor incursion runners).

To be frank, gang links are not a targeted module, which makes giving them a suspect / criminal flag upon activation problematic. I think the real solution is simply to force links to be on-grid. They are extremely imbalancing, so forcing them on grid, while very difficult on some fleet types, is the optimal solution!


No because they're not aggressing other players. Like I said I don't see how other remote assistance modules can have different suspect/outlaw mechanics. For your example, somebody would have to go suspect/outlaw in order for the links to be flagged. It's not even like they couldn't be docked up, but it would mean in low sec that small ships could drive them into the station or into another system. Which considering the links are working against the frigs/destroyers I don't think is unreasonable.


In highsec, you gain a suspect flag if you remote assist someone that is attack an opponent that cannot attack you legally. So, you are right that the incursion link alt won't go suspect... unless someone attacks the incursioners and the incursioners shoot back.
Electric Dott
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-02-14 19:01:52 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Electric Dott wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

This will be messy:

So if you boost your fleet mate you go suspect? Imagine the impact his will have in highsec! (lol, poor incursion runners).

To be frank, gang links are not a targeted module, which makes giving them a suspect / criminal flag upon activation problematic. I think the real solution is simply to force links to be on-grid. They are extremely imbalancing, so forcing them on grid, while very difficult on some fleet types, is the optimal solution!


No because they're not aggressing other players. Like I said I don't see how other remote assistance modules can have different suspect/outlaw mechanics. For your example, somebody would have to go suspect/outlaw in order for the links to be flagged. It's not even like they couldn't be docked up, but it would mean in low sec that small ships could drive them into the station or into another system. Which considering the links are working against the frigs/destroyers I don't think is unreasonable.


In highsec, you gain a suspect flag if you remote assist someone that is attack an opponent that cannot attack you legally. So, you are right that the incursion link alt won't go suspect... unless someone attacks the incursioners and the incursioners shoot back.


Well that's exactly what I'm suggesting, if they are being used to boost a player's combat capability against another player, they should be fair game. I'm not sure how I feel about them being fair game for everybody in highsec, but, if that's how it works for things like logi/remote sebo etc then it should be consistent.
Jasmine Panzer
Ciaba Ventures
#8 - 2014-02-15 16:00:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmine Panzer
Why not completely change how boosts work?

Make them modules that require targeting. Give em adequate range, naturally.

The targeted ship gets the boosts, and also transfers the effect to all ships in the fleet command chain 'underneath'. So you need to target the fleet/wing/squad commander to give everybody boosts.

. Fixes all the 'off-grid' vs. 'on-grid' discussion: yeah you have to be on grid and no 'grid-fu' doesnt matter

. Fixes OP's issue: yes if you target boost a suspect you become a suspect, just like RR

. Makes flying a booster ship an active fleet role: you gotta target the right person, if he pops you gotta know who's next in chain of command, etc... all the while trying to stay out of harms way. Much like how logi pilots fly

. Applies also to boosters the usual fleet tactics: go for the enemy booster or not? Send an intie or two to tackle/get warp-in/scare him off? Assign a frigate or two to protect the booster? Jam/damp the booster? etc. etc.

. Allows for some treachery: suddenly your booster guy decides he likes the other fleet more and starts boosting them!

I admit to not having/using boosters myself (except when I'm in somebody else's boosted fleet) but the whole 'train/buy a booster alt, get him in the system where you're fighting, hide him away someplace and forget about it' seems a supremely uninteresting game mechanic to me. Currently people are kinda 'forced' to use it cuz its so powerful and/or puts you at so much of a disadvantage if you're the only side without boosters. But I seriously doubt anyone is having fun with it!

The fact that there are plenty of booster 'alts' but zero booster 'mains' should be a clear enough indication of a boring mechanic!!!


EDIT: DERP! I just realized that this could be easily exploited by having both booster and fleet commander offgrid... :) My bad.

So ok, I still support the OP and furthermore I'm another one of the 'boosts should be on grid' guys :)

Maybe a 150km area of effect around the boosting ship, limited to fleet members, would work instead?