These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#2281 - 2014-02-13 14:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
Ecm is a terrible mechanic. It should never be chance based. There is no player skill involved...

Ecm and sensor strengh should be changed to how "X" is calculated in the "applied damage" formula.

There are two main formula that decide if and quality of a hit.

The one we are most familiar with is the chance to hit. This is where tracking optimal range ect. Come into place. All the chance to hit formula does is calculate a number between 0 and 1 which is then rated against "X".

Which leads to the damage applied formula. Basically this one determines the quality of hit.

Its the one that says this shot barely scratches to a wreaking hit.

X as it stands is a randomly generated.

I want sensor strength and ecm/eccm help determine how "X" is calculated.

Here is the linky explains what I am talking abouthttps://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2282 - 2014-02-13 14:32:29 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:


ECM is fine for the most part, they just need to reduce the chance of being perma jammed.


Quoting from another thread:

Quote:

How should it be? Like everything else in the game, there should be diminishing returns on jam strength. Going from 1 jam strength to 2 should be a bigger change in jam probability than going from 2 to 3. In addition, you should never hit 100%.

So proposed new math for ecm:

Jam probability = 2/pi * arctan(jam strength/sensor strength)

This requires an moderate increase in jam strengths across the board, to balance things with the new formula. Some points from this:

0) The 2/pi is just a normalization constant
1) infinite jam strength gives 100% jam probability, as does 0 sensor strength
2) Jam strength = sensor strength gives jam probability 1/2
3) Base Jam strengths should be increased by about 65%, but CCP would have to do some testing on that
4) Arcan is a good function for this, but there are others that would be equally good
Mario Putzo
#2283 - 2014-02-13 16:09:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Rek Seven wrote:

No it doesn't make sense at all... Actually it's a pretty ridiculous proposal as not all ships use drones.
ECM is fine for the most part, they just need to reduce the chance of being perma jammed.


Ya because Missiles and Drones ships get impacted by Tracking Disruptors. BC, BS, Caps all feel the sting from Target Painters. Drone Boats and Missile Chuckers suffer from Nos/Neut.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2284 - 2014-02-13 16:26:49 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

No it doesn't make sense at all... Actually it's a pretty ridiculous proposal as not all ships use drones.
ECM is fine for the most part, they just need to reduce the chance of being perma jammed.


Ya because Missiles and Drones ships get impacted by Tracking Disruptors. BC, BS, Caps all feel the sting from Target Painters. Drone Boats and Missile Chuckers suffer from Nos/Neut.


You can shoot drones to completely remove drones from the equasion.

Suggesting that ECM is completely redesigned is silly. You can counter ECM with skills, modules and good target calling the same as most things in eve. The problem (if there is on) lies more in the ecm ships instead of the ECM mechanic its self.

If things like ECM didn't exist, you could hardly ever fight outnumbered and then game would just be about who has the biggest blob, even more than it is now.

If you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should create a dedicated thread instead of hijacking this one.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
TXG SYNC
Dad Jokes R Us
#2285 - 2014-02-13 16:43:24 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
TXG SYNC wrote:

A Nestor has no such bonus.


I still don't get why you think this is a bad thing.


I don't think I've said it was a bad thing. I was contrasting real logistics to the Nestor. Some in the thread seem to characterize the Nestor as Yet Another Overpowered Logistics -- assuming the price normalizes to around 1Bn or so over the next few months -- and I disagree both on Logistics being overpowered, and the Nestor being an example of one.

The Nestor has strong bonuses for a tight RR gang once the price comes down a bit. Heck, if you have a lot of spare cash, this kind of crew with some Mobile Depots could be very challenging to fight right now, and the large cargo hold means they'll have enough cap boosters to last quite some time.

I'm going to leave my remaining speculation regarding the role of the Nestor unsaid. We're doing some testing with it, and it has real potential in varying situations; the primary reason to discourage such use today is only the price, and the remote rep range which would really work better if it were 200% instead of 100% bonused.
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2286 - 2014-02-13 16:55:55 UTC
TXG SYNC wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
TXG SYNC wrote:

A Nestor has no such bonus.


I still don't get why you think this is a bad thing.


I don't think I've said it was a bad thing. I was contrasting real logistics to the Nestor. Some in the thread seem to characterize the Nestor as Yet Another Overpowered Logistics -- assuming the price normalizes to around 1Bn or so over the next few months -- and I disagree both on Logistics being overpowered, and the Nestor being an example of one.

The Nestor has strong bonuses for a tight RR gang once the price comes down a bit. Heck, if you have a lot of spare cash, this kind of crew with some Mobile Depots could be very challenging to fight right now, and the large cargo hold means they'll have enough cap boosters to last quite some time.

I'm going to leave my remaining speculation regarding the role of the Nestor unsaid. We're doing some testing with it, and it has real potential in varying situations; the primary reason to discourage such use today is only the price, and the remote rep range which would really work better if it were 200% instead of 100% bonused.


I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Nestor is another overpowered logistics ship. Far from it. My experiments with it on Sisi suggest that it is capable at spider-tanking, but somewhat vulnerable because the spider cannot manoeuvre meaningfully - rep ranges being a large issue as you alluded to.

My assertion that logistics ships (by which I mean the T2 cruiser variant only) in general, and the guardian in particular are overpowered are explained fully above. Essentially a combination of very high repping power over vast distances while having a combination of extremely tough armour and a tiny sig.

The Nestor does not have these benefits so despite its strong repping power does not enter the same league in terms of difficulty to kill...

...which is where the price comes in.

I completely agree with your sentiment that the price is too high (having said the same myself many times), but your clearing price estimate of 1Bn per hull seems a little high to me given the very small niche in which this ship finds itself useful.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mario Putzo
#2287 - 2014-02-13 17:02:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Rek Seven wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

No it doesn't make sense at all... Actually it's a pretty ridiculous proposal as not all ships use drones.
ECM is fine for the most part, they just need to reduce the chance of being perma jammed.


Ya because Missiles and Drones ships get impacted by Tracking Disruptors. BC, BS, Caps all feel the sting from Target Painters. Drone Boats and Missile Chuckers suffer from Nos/Neut.


You can shoot drones to completely remove drones from the equasion.

Suggesting that ECM is completely redesigned is silly. You can counter ECM with skills, modules and good target calling the same as most things in eve. The problem (if there is on) lies more in the ecm ships instead of the ECM mechanic its self.


Who said anything about being redesigned? You literally would need to replace one line of code. (maybe multiple times but the same line of code) maxtarget=0 becomes maxbandwidth=0. Make the swap where ever needed. (repurposed isn't the same as redesigning)

EDIT:
You can fight outnumbered all the time, ECM like all EWAR helps but it is hardly the only force multiplier in the game. The issue seems to be that ECM is applicable in all situations, unlike other EWAR options that all have their uses, but also have their limitations or periods of uselessness.

EDIT2:
Also Im done replying in this thread...if you would like to continue discussing ECM we should move to the ECM thread, this thread is for the Nestor.
TXG SYNC
Dad Jokes R Us
#2288 - 2014-02-13 17:28:36 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I completely agree with your sentiment that the price is too high (having said the same myself many times), but your clearing price estimate of 1Bn per hull seems a little high to me given the very small niche in which this ship finds itself useful.


Point acknowledged; I think we're in agreement.

I will add, though -- because I love discussion, not because I'm married to the point of view -- that the Nestor even at 1.6Bn can apparently be fitted so that it out-performs the current 5-man non-escalated Tengu-ball approach toward C5/C6 PvE. Those Tengu balls typically represent somewhere just shy of 10Bn on the field, and are an extremely tough nut to crack, typically requiring a very solid fleet to overcome them. Nestors can apparently do the same job with fewer hulls on the field in a reasonable amount of time. I'll be testing this on Sisi later this week to see how site-completion times compare, and whether it's more worthwhile to go full-logi on the Nestor or focus more on its hybrid role.
Mike Flynn
Energy
#2289 - 2014-02-13 18:11:04 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:

No it doesn't make sense at all... Actually it's a pretty ridiculous proposal as not all ships use drones.
ECM is fine for the most part, they just need to reduce the chance of being perma jammed.


Ya because Missiles and Drones ships get impacted by Tracking Disruptors. BC, BS, Caps all feel the sting from Target Painters. Drone Boats and Missile Chuckers suffer from Nos/Neut.


You can shoot drones to completely remove drones from the equasion.

Suggesting that ECM is completely redesigned is silly. You can counter ECM with skills, modules and good target calling the same as most things in eve. The problem (if there is on) lies more in the ecm ships instead of the ECM mechanic its self.

If things like ECM didn't exist, you could hardly ever fight outnumbered and then game would just be about who has the biggest blob, even more than it is now.

If you feel so strongly about it, maybe you should create a dedicated thread instead of hijacking this one.


Sounds like someone could never do without a falcon alt ;)
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2290 - 2014-02-13 18:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
TXG SYNC wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
I completely agree with your sentiment that the price is too high (having said the same myself many times), but your clearing price estimate of 1Bn per hull seems a little high to me given the very small niche in which this ship finds itself useful.


Point acknowledged; I think we're in agreement.

I will add, though -- because I love discussion, not because I'm married to the point of view -- that the Nestor even at 1.6Bn can apparently be fitted so that it out-performs the current 5-man non-escalated Tengu-ball approach toward C5/C6 PvE. Those Tengu balls typically represent somewhere just shy of 10Bn on the field, and are an extremely tough nut to crack, typically requiring a very solid fleet to overcome them. Nestors can apparently do the same job with fewer hulls on the field in a reasonable amount of time. I'll be testing this on Sisi later this week to see how site-completion times compare, and whether it's more worthwhile to go full-logi on the Nestor or focus more on its hybrid role.


I would be interested to hear how it goes. I am in a c6. Please feel free to join the TOHA Lounge in game.

When we (rarely) raid a foreign c5 we do it with guardians and a few battleships and AHACS. The total risk is probably 2Bn maximum.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
Mario Putzo
#2291 - 2014-02-13 19:23:26 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
I am selling 2 Nestor Fits that are actually useful in a fleet.

Start the bidding at 1B.


I never buy second-hand goods that people want to sell. I always feel that if the goods were useful, they wouldn't be for sale.

If you're willing to take a 2Bn loss just to be rid of these two abominations, I can only assume you believe that they'll never be useful to you.

Which is what I believe too.


Huh? I am not selling ships...I am selling EFT XML's. they would be useful, I just don't have enough friends to make them useful vOv
Mournful Conciousness
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2292 - 2014-02-13 19:47:35 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
I am selling 2 Nestor Fits that are actually useful in a fleet.

Start the bidding at 1B.


I never buy second-hand goods that people want to sell. I always feel that if the goods were useful, they wouldn't be for sale.

If you're willing to take a 2Bn loss just to be rid of these two abominations, I can only assume you believe that they'll never be useful to you.

Which is what I believe too.


Huh? I am not selling ships...I am selling EFT XML's. they would be useful, I just don't have enough friends to make them useful vOv


Oh! Heh. Sorry, my mistake.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2293 - 2014-02-13 20:06:02 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Ecm is a terrible mechanic. It should never be chance based. There is no player skill involved...



NO.

Let me start with that all the talk abou ecm beeing chance based and thus terrible is rubbish, people claim its just a dice game and that the rest of eve isnt. They always forget that all combat in even is a game of dice

Quote:

A turret with a 100% hit chance will see a natural and unavoidable damage spread between 50% to 149% of its base damage for normal hits, and will always do exactly 300% of its base damage on perfect hits.


This basicelly means that in a 1v1 match there is a chance of one ships doing 50% of its dps the entire fight and the other ship doing 300%. No one ever complains about that.

The problem with ecm isnt the mechanic (its not bad, unlike alll other ewar which is always applied 100% and cant be evaded ecm is the strongest of them all but if it doesnt hit its completly useless) it is that it is also one of teh strongest forms of anti tackle.

You can counter every ewar (bar tps, but they dont impact your offensive capabilities) by piloting, you can negate damps/range td if you get to close, you can counter tracking tds by lowering transversal. And yes you can even counter ecm, simply by kiting it, at 100km the chance to be ecmed is very slim.

The one problem ecm has is that it provides a hardcounter to tackle, if you counterpilot any other ewar ship it is easily killable, if you get clsoe enough to a razu to not be affected by damps you can kill it and there is nothing it can do, if you manage the tds you can kill the curse (if you have a nos) and so on. A good marker is that they all can be soloed by a really good frigate.

But ecm has no minimal range, up close its strongest so you will easily get jammed out and it warps away, its the only ewar you can nagate defensively but not on the offence. This is wrong, and it would be really easy to fix, make ecm have a minimal range of 20km (within that it doesnt work at all) and reduce range boni. Now you can solo them if you are close and they require a bit more piloting as they have to stay in range.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2294 - 2014-02-13 21:52:46 UTC
TXG SYNC wrote:
and the remote rep range which would really work better if it were 200% instead of 100% bonused.

?
Are you suggesting that giving a ship stronger bonuses makes it better?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#2295 - 2014-02-13 21:54:20 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
[

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Nestor is another overpowered logistics ship. Far from it. My experiments with it on Sisi suggest that it is capable at spider-tanking, but somewhat vulnerable because the spider cannot manoeuvre meaningfully - rep ranges being a large issue as you alluded to.



Normal RR gangs have to deal with ranges between 4.8 and 8.4km, and they manage to deal with this constraint.
Kane Fenris
NWP
#2296 - 2014-02-13 23:03:08 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
[

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Nestor is another overpowered logistics ship. Far from it. My experiments with it on Sisi suggest that it is capable at spider-tanking, but somewhat vulnerable because the spider cannot manoeuvre meaningfully - rep ranges being a large issue as you alluded to.



Normal RR gangs have to deal with ranges between 4.8 and 8.4km, and they manage to deal with this constraint.



but most RR gangs dont use heavy drones or sentries as their main weapon ....

imho the ship isnt much use in a RR gang ...... and not outside of one ......
Mario Putzo
#2297 - 2014-02-13 23:19:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
Kane Fenris wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
[

I don't think anyone is suggesting that the Nestor is another overpowered logistics ship. Far from it. My experiments with it on Sisi suggest that it is capable at spider-tanking, but somewhat vulnerable because the spider cannot manoeuvre meaningfully - rep ranges being a large issue as you alluded to.



Normal RR gangs have to deal with ranges between 4.8 and 8.4km, and they manage to deal with this constraint.



but most RR gangs dont use heavy drones or sentries as their main weapon ....

imho the ship isnt much use in a RR gang ...... and not outside of one ......


Actually it has very good RR potential. And most RR gangs use Sentries at least all the Vexor/Domi RR fleets ive ever done have. (this is due to RR mods taking up the highslots on ships vOv)

1B and ill give you a fit for Nestor RR Fleet.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2298 - 2014-02-14 01:48:43 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quinn Corvez wrote:
Why are you guys acting like this is a logistics cruiser ballance thread?

Logistics are I vital part of any fleet. Part of being a good FC it making sure you can counter enemy logistics with good e-war and if you know the other side has overwhelming logistics, you simply don't take the fight if you are not willing to loose.

Perhaps guardians could do with a little Leeds scan res and sensor strength but that's about it.



They could do with repping an amount of damage that a t2 cruiser can output, not 4 battleships.



actually they could deal with 4 bs too in spider tank mode but ccp gave them far to few of a cap recharge.


Englishes very much hard


as late as that post was (this too) and that english isnt my motherlanguage yes. But be reasonable my english doesnt matter. The capacitor on the nestor sucks. It needs either a remote energy transfer bonus, rep cap usage boni or an increase in cap recharge.
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2299 - 2014-02-14 02:11:40 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
Actually it has very good RR potential. And most RR gangs use Sentries at least all the Vexor/Domi RR fleets ive ever done have. (this is due to RR mods taking up the highslots on ships vOv)

Have you purchased your Nestor yet...?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Mario Putzo
#2300 - 2014-02-14 03:01:54 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
Actually it has very good RR potential. And most RR gangs use Sentries at least all the Vexor/Domi RR fleets ive ever done have. (this is due to RR mods taking up the highslots on ships vOv)

Have you purchased your Nestor yet...?


**** no. Why would anyone buy a ship less than a month after its release. Thats just asking to pay like 200% markup cuz of scarcity and "new hotness" value. Ill get a few in a couple months. Provide CCP doesn't chunk all over it before then.

(Granted you can't really make it any worse...but it is a solid RR/Sentry Boat)