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Very serious danger for all people who like to do missions in faction ships

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Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#321 - 2014-02-13 05:03:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Your Dad Naked
Ganking takes a lot of effort and coordination. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effort than it takes to run an L4 mission. You put hundreds of millions of ISK on the line for the chance at getting a successful gank with a good drop. The scouting part is perhaps more tedious than mining even, which is saying something.

I used to think like most other fellow carebears: Ganking is an exploit! TEH EVILZ!!!1

Then I tried ganking.
Si1viu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2014-02-13 09:04:35 UTC
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Ganking takes a lot of effort and coordination. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effort than it takes to run an L4 mission.

You are just an obvious troll. You can gank a marauder who take a ton of isk and a lot of training time to fly, using just two weeks old chars in a dozen dirty cheap destroyers.
All you need is just one experienced player who know how to use a ship scanner and combat probes, and a bunch of low skilled guys in destroyers who need only to know how to lock a target and press F1 to activate the guns when FC fleet warp them on target.
That look balanced only for a moron with less than a half brain, or for a suicide ganker who have a very legit interest to keep the things as they are.
Salvos Rhoska
#323 - 2014-02-13 09:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Si1viu wrote:
You are just an obvious troll. You can gank a marauder who take a ton of isk and a lot of training time to fly, using just two weeks old chars in a dozen dirty cheap destroyers.
All you need is just one experienced player who know how to use a ship scanner and combat probes, and a bunch of low skilled guys in destroyers who need only to know how to lock a target and press F1 to activate the guns when FC fleet warp them on target.
That look balanced only for a moron with less than a half brain, or for a suicide ganker who have a very legit interest to keep the things as they are.


This is a masterpiece of trolling.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Si1viu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2014-02-13 09:21:18 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
This is a masterpiece of trolling.

This is just an useless, worthless and baseless statement. If you want to contribute to this thread in a more constructive manner please post something more intelligent. Or better refrain to pollute my thread and go to C&P forum, you are always welcome there with that kind of posts.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#325 - 2014-02-13 09:28:19 UTC
Si1viu wrote:
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Ganking takes a lot of effort and coordination. Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effort than it takes to run an L4 mission.

You are just an obvious troll. You can gank a marauder who take a ton of isk and a lot of training time to fly, using just two weeks old chars in a dozen dirty cheap destroyers.
All you need is just one experienced player who know how to use a ship scanner and combat probes, and a bunch of low skilled guys in destroyers who need only to know how to lock a target and press F1 to activate the guns when FC fleet warp them on target.
That look balanced only for a moron with less than a half brain, or for a suicide ganker who have a very legit interest to keep the things as they are.


You are literally complaining about losing 1v12.

The thread is full of rebuttals to your point. Read the thread.
Salvos Rhoska
#326 - 2014-02-13 09:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Si1viu wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
This is a masterpiece of trolling.

This is just an useless, worthless and baseless statement. If you want to contribute to this thread in a more constructive manner please post something more intelligent. Or better refrain to pollute my thread and go to C&P forum, you are always welcome there with that kind of posts.


Oh my.. You seem to actually be for real..!

See my constructive posts here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4218604#post4218604
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4218854#post4218854

>>My glorious Marauder of NPC Killing+10. Master-race.
>>>Filthy dozen of dirty Destroyer pilots. Disgusting peasants.
????
>>>>HOW CAN SHE SLAP!? HOW CAN SHE SLAAPPPP!?!

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Si1viu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2014-02-13 09:41:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Si1viu
Tauranon wrote:

You are literally complaining about losing 1v12.

The thread is full of rebuttals to your point. Read the thread.


This thread is just a way to warn people who do missions about the danger to lose their ships.

Also i don't complain about anything, i just point out some game unbalance. Missioning is a way to start playing eve and get the ropes for many players. Ganking missioners and miners so easy means that you have a lot new players driven away from this game.
If you prefer that this game to become Grief Online with his grow base cut, then go on.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#328 - 2014-02-13 10:03:41 UTC
Si1viu wrote:
Tauranon wrote:

You are literally complaining about losing 1v12.

The thread is full of rebuttals to your point. Read the thread.


This thread is just a way to warn people who do missions about the danger to lose their ships.

Also i don't complain about anything, i just point out some game unbalance. Missioning is a way to start playing eve and get the ropes for many players. Ganking missioners and miners so easy means that you have a lot new players driven away from this game.
If you prefer that this game to become Grief Online with his grow base cut, then go on.


You are just rehashing the thread content without acknowledging the debate points. I already pointed out that nobody ganks drakes doing level 3s in highsec.

This is a danger that only applies to advanced players who have earned a lot of isk, and would have spare ships, and who should really by then know how to keep them safe.
Salvos Rhoska
#329 - 2014-02-13 10:14:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
For every 1 player potentially driven away from the game for losing a ship (Omg, someone lost a ship! Unthinkable!) there are 12 people kept in the game by doing it.

I particularly liked the part where you in no uncertain terms called CCP morons with half a brain, and yet in the same sentence affirmed that ganking is indeed a legit play mechanic:
Si1viu wrote:
That look balanced only for a moron with less than a half brain, or for a suicide ganker who have a very legit interest to keep the things as they are.


Im all for warning players that they are infact constantly, and everywhere, at risk of losing a ship, and that they should take steos to mitigate that. But that is already well established in the Golden Rules. Every player in EVE must abide by them, or suffer the consequences. That applies inclusively and especially, to multibillion mission running ships.

The more expensive the ship you choose to fly in, the bigger your r(ISK) is.
That should be obvious to all players, but perhaps, as demonstrated by your posts, that does indeed require more repeating so that some players fully internalise this hardcoded fact of EVE mechanics.

Personally, I hope bling ganking becomes even more prevalent. If I wasnt such a noob myself, Id be sorely tempted myself to form a dedicated High Sec Gank Corp and actively recruit aggressive new players who as of yet still have low SP for this potential to gorge on complacent and careless high sec targets.

Anyone who has been playing EVE for as long as it takes to skill these kinds of ships, and to buy and fit them, should intrinsically understand the risks involved. If not, then if it takes a dozen other players to remind them of that, so be it.

Your claim that: "Missioning is a way to start playing eve and get the ropes for many players.", is non-sequitor.
This, because a player in a multibillion Marauder, for example, is by no means just starting EVE, nor learning the ropes.
The risk/reward in the ganking equation, as I understand it, has an additive multiplier.
Though it is indeed equally possible (and requires commensurately less participantsand preparation) to gank a newish player in a simple mining ship or mission runner, the potential rewards are also very small when compared to the organisation and time required to orchestrate the gank.
The more valuable the target, the better this equation favors risking the time and effort of attempting it.
This is true of EVERYTHING in EVE.

TLDR: In a multibillion ship, you present yourself as an enormous and potentially profitable target. Take steps to secure/protect yourself. That certainly is worthy of repeating and reminding. For that, I o7 this thread. As is apparent from recent ingame action, the meta is now indicating an increasing awareness of the potential profit these ships/players offer. Players are becoming aware of the fact that these blinged mission runners are not abiding by the Golden Rules! Dont be complacent. Dont be careless.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Si1viu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#330 - 2014-02-13 10:39:54 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
For every 1 player potentially driven away from the game for losing a ship (Omg, someone lost a ship! Unthinkable!) there are 12 people kept in the game by doing it.


Behind your laudable optimism i doubt you have any data to support your statement. This game player base is not limited at your 12 gankers pals, also what you miss completely is that new players not jump very often in suicide ganking train. And if you keep to drive away from this game missioners and miners, soon your 12 happy gankers will lack targets to kill.
Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
#331 - 2014-02-13 10:45:27 UTC
To sum up, If you fly a ship that you took more than two weeks to buy and fit, you are in danger of losing it to the gank types. It is their CCP given right and duty to teach everyone in EVE that ISK making is bad and shiny modules are a waste of ISK. If you want things in EVE then never earn it, always take it. CCP agrees with this mode of game play and any attempt to discourage it will be met with a wall of troll responses and Ad Hominem replies, attempting to warn new players of this will likely net you the same aforementioned responses

Ganking is a proper accepted mechanic and everyone that joins EVE should pick it as their first career choice. Carebearing is a sign of weakness and should be avoided at all cost, only the weak willed and feeble minded should chose Carebearing as a career choice.

The end result of all EVE players should be to acquire enough ISK to PLEX their account and continue skilling for the penultimate goal of joining a Nul Sec group to being involved in a TiDi battle of epic proportions where you get to cycle a gun 4 times in 4 hours to see your lossmail that shows you died 5 minutes into the battle after hours at the keyboard.

So go forth into EVE and steal your PLEX, scan all ships and report their value to further the cause and prevent EVE from being destroyed by the Carebears.
Salvos Rhoska
#332 - 2014-02-13 11:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Si1viu wrote:
Behind your laudable optimism i doubt you have any data to support your statement. This game player base is not limited at your 12 gankers pals, also what you miss completely is that new players not jump very often in suicide ganking train. And if you keep to drive away from this game missioners and miners, soon your 12 happy gankers will lack targets to kill.


1) It takes multiple players to gank a high value ship in High Sec due to the mechanics of those systems security rating.
For every ganked single player, it takes multiple players to accomplish. The statistical data is incontrovertible therefore, to the conclusion that ganking involves more players into the game, than what their single target presents a potential of "leaving the game", which is a bullshit form of blackmail argument anyways.

2) Guess what, I estimate its about 2-3 months away until we begin to see seriously dedicated ganking corps that specifically and deliberately recruit new players for this specific purpose. As well as established players leading this new meta as the core of these Corps, new players are optimally positioned to accrue maximum income from this, as compared to what they could otherwise profit from their relatively low SP base.

3) Ironically, at the same time as threads like this, and your efforts, raise awareness for high-bling mission runners to watch their asses, it is also raising the profile of this new meta as a potential profit source EXACTLY for aggressive new players. The benefits and the potential of their low SP to participate, are significant. They can relatively easily skill into the required Probing for finding potential targets. Their low SP in ship skills is adequate for participating in the gank itself. In terms of time spent organising and participating in it, it is at the least equal to what they could earn doing their other low profit activities. Add to that, the delicious flavor of salty tears, as well as personal glory and killmail, and the potential becomes positively appetizing.

4) There will not be a lack of targets for the foreseeable future. (And I reject this form of argument, as it is infact an attempt at blackmailing the game) This for the following reasons:
-The players rich and skilled enough to run the ships that comprise the highest value targets for this activity, are perfectly capable of fielding another such ship immediately thereafter (if they are not, they are breaking Golden Rules)
-There is such an enormous mass of players who have genuinely and seriously become so completely complacent in terms of securing their own actions in these ships, that the only immediately foreseeable effect, will be a delayed and gradual increase difficulty in identifying and tracking potential targets.
-Before the pool of potential targets dries up due to attrition, many of these targets will become somewhat less attractive due to them finally learning to take mitigating action.
-Even when the pool is otherwise exhausted, there will still be people who violate the Golden Rules. At this point, these targets become rather more incidental targets of opportunity, and full time invested in finding them will no longer be profitable as compared to doing other activities.

5) It is NOT the concern of these players, if a player gets butthurt for losing their expensive ship that they took little to no precautions in protecting, and subsequently leave the game. You CANNOT blackmail the community, and the fundamental mechanics of the game, by threatening to "leave if I can't fly my ludicrously expensive ship with no risk". This for two primary reasons:
a) The number of players required in a gank, outnumbers the number of players being ganked. The mathematics are elementary and clear on this matter. More players will be retained by the game, in terms of the gankers, than will be potentially lost by butthurt players leaving due to becoming a target due to their own complacency and lack of precautions.
b) Nobody else is responsible for your choices. If you choose to leave the game, that is YOUR choice, YOUR prerogative, and YOUR responsibility. You can try to blame someone, or everyone else, for your choice, but that is false. YOU are the one leaving. YOU are the one who has chosen to do so. YOU are the one who is responsible for that. Nobody else.

Rolstra: I love it when prolific use of self-deprecation, self-irony, sarcasm and false implications in your post, actually confirms entirely that the opposing positions is the valid one. Thank you. You presented your oppositions position even better than they have, and with the added credibility that it is coming from you as a nominal opponent to it. You basically scored an own-goal.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#333 - 2014-02-13 11:21:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Rolstra wrote:
To sum up, If you fly a ship that you took more than two weeks to buy and fit, you are in danger of losing it to the gank types. It is their CCP given right and duty to teach everyone in EVE that ISK making is bad and shiny modules are a waste of ISK. If you want things in EVE then never earn it, always take it. CCP agrees with this mode of game play and any attempt to discourage it will be met with a wall of troll responses and Ad Hominem replies, attempting to warn new players of this will likely net you the same aforementioned responses



You are yet another person rehashing the thread by ignoring very clear rebuttals of those points already made in this thread.

The only reason that a ship takes 2 weeks to earn, is because parts of it come from places that are governed by those who can manage shiploss. The only reason the ship is still valuable is because enough of them get blown up. A pith x-type xl booster, is only valuable, because you all can't get there and farm them, which you would if you could.

This is -entirely- what makes EVE remain economically functional after 10 years.

Quote:



Ganking is a proper accepted mechanic and everyone that joins EVE should pick it as their first career choice. Carebearing is a sign of weakness and should be avoided at all cost, only the weak willed and feeble minded should chose Carebearing as a career choice.

The end result of all EVE players should be to acquire enough ISK to PLEX their account and continue skilling for the penultimate goal of joining a Nul Sec group to being involved in a TiDi battle of epic proportions where you get to cycle a gun 4 times in 4 hours to see your lossmail that shows you died 5 minutes into the battle after hours at the keyboard.

So go forth into EVE and steal your PLEX, scan all ships and report their value to further the cause and prevent EVE from being destroyed by the Carebears.


Also, I am a 7 year sub. When you are done carebearing missions, you will either quit, go to a wormhole, run incursions or live in nullsec. I have done the wormhole thing, and I am living in null (except for today where I am farming sansha because I never tried that before). CCP recognizes that people that won't grow out of running L4s, just don't sub as long, and people that have played the game as long as I have, recognize the need for things to explode.

As it turns out, in order for wh's and null to work, the high end goods cannot saturate the market, ie some of it has to explode, ie for players to live on after L4s, there needs to be more things to do.

The game is thus avoidance, or making the other players stuff explode. I'm more than comfortable with avoidance as that it is basically bucking the trend of losing the right amount of stuff, and is in its own way winning the game. If you can't even manage avoidance with concord on your side....
Rolstra
Moo's Mudpit
#334 - 2014-02-13 12:11:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Rolstra: I love it when prolific use of self-deprecation, self-irony, sarcasm and false implications in your post, actually confirms entirely that the opposing positions is the valid one. Thank you. You presented your oppositions position even better than they have, and with the added credibility that it is coming from you as a nominal opponent to it. You basically scored an own-goal.

I was worried my sarcasm would be wasted;

:) Yeah as much as a hate the archetype, Ganking is a part of eve and taking it away entirely would ruin many aspects of EVE that I enjoy (Ganking not being one of them). The need to mollycoddle players is necessary for awhile, but if you have attained the ability to have a 2 billion ISK ship (A goal that took me well over a year) then you have attained enough skill, knowledge and understanding to protect yourself as well. I don't necessarily agree with the financial risk of one side being so much lower than the financial risk of the other side, but it is impossible to change that without ruining the entire 'Pirate' motivation.

So Carebears unite start leaving a Logi ALT, or jamming ALT at the gates where ganks are prolific, a logi will add two or three ships to the gank fleet, and a jammer can disable the same number. But stay out of the forums, the opportunity to be trolled by half-witted responses and HTFU replies is counterproductive and will leave you feeling like quitting EVE.

Remember everyone in eve are not like the forum poster's, the real players are actually playing not posting.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#335 - 2014-02-16 07:40:03 UTC
I noticed that DMC claimed, CCP have not endorsed salvaging as an offical career path. So I though I would post a few links.

Per CCP Mitnal:
CCP Mitnal wrote:
"Our policy on this is extremely clear... Salvaging is a mini-profession within EVE and does not constitute stealing."

Per GM Faolchu :
GM Faolchu wrote:
Salvaging other peoples wrecks.... This is an intended game mechanic and is in no way an exploit. People salvaging your missions npcs or the player you just blew up are doing nothing wrong. The players are salvaging what is effectively floating rubbish in space and Concord places no value on this wreckage.
Eve is a harsh place you won't always have everything go your way, its a do or die world and people do what they can to get along. If salvaging some wreckage gets them a few more ISK someone will do it, it doesn't matter who just blew it up.

Per Senior GM Ytterbium :
GM Ytterbium wrote:
Players are still completely free to salvage other pilot wrecks at will ... and doing so is not considered as an exploit.

Per CCP Prism X :
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why is stealing salvage OK? It's not. It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

Per CCP Incognito :
CCP Incognito wrote:
Had a chat with some designers this evening.
Ninja salvaging is intended game play. It was always intended that the wrecks are public, the loot is private.
They do not see it as a problem if others salvage your wrecks.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#336 - 2014-02-16 07:46:53 UTC
this thread was dead several weeks ago
Mag's
Azn Empire
#337 - 2014-02-16 07:52:05 UTC
Qalix wrote:
this thread was dead several weeks ago
Well the last post was 3 days ago, but yes I knew that it was all but over. I just wanted to point out DMC was wrong. People have a habit of believing bad information.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Si1viu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2014-02-17 10:31:06 UTC
Qalix wrote:
this thread was dead several weeks ago


I must disappoint you, suicide ganking is still a valid tactic, nothing was changed in game mechanics on this aspect in last weeks, so people who do missions must be warned and keep aware of this real danger, and that is the purpose of this thread. You have any problem with that? Why you want this thread buried, maybe because affect your suicide ganking business?
Talia Prime
Imperial Militia
#339 - 2014-02-17 12:48:07 UTC
Si1viu wrote:
Qalix wrote:
this thread was dead several weeks ago


I must disappoint you, suicide ganking is still a valid tactic, nothing was changed in game mechanics on this aspect in last weeks, so people who do missions must be warned and keep aware of this real danger, and that is the purpose of this thread. You have any problem with that? Why you want this thread buried, maybe because affect your suicide ganking business?


Maybe because it's a joke thread that isn't necessary, that's why people want it buried. As has been said on numerous occasions, if you can afford to fly a 2b+ ship for missioning you should know how to keep it safe. As for your new bro comments and the 'fact' that ganking puts off new people, why are new guys flying round in billion plus ships?
Kate Chanlin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2014-02-17 20:12:52 UTC
You know, everyone says you will be fine if you don't pimp out your ship, however my t2 fitted nightmare has survived 3 gank attempts. Just a fyi for you all, I'm positive your tears are the primary motivation for gankers. The isk to be made is just a nice bonus.