Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Logistics ships aren't OP just because you don't have the foresight to bring your own along when you roam.

the fact that logis have the same T2 resist profile as HAC's is obviously OP especially combined with the smaller sig radius and higher speed than most HAC's ... along with being able to rep out too 70km which is also OP by itself ..

Needed nerfs
- remove T2 resists these are support ships not combat tanky ships .. partial resists at most
- increase sig radius slightly (T1 logi aswell)
- reduce range bonuses (T1 logi aswell)
- reduce EHP slightly - they competes with attack and some combat cruisers for EHP superiority. (T1 logi aswell)

And God... I mean CCP... gave E-war to the players...

Did you know that a void bomb can cap out a logi? Two fired with an interval if capchain.
Did you know that sensor dampeners can prevent a logi to rep, and force him to be in the frontline to continue to operate?
Did you know that in a world where sentrys have indecent alpha coupled with damage-multiplier-only damage mods, and artillery exists, you can alpha something without the logi having any possibility of repping him? Even two sentry volley might work against armor logi, or 'sleepy' shield ones (by sleepy I mean a normal human reaction time).

His comparison with logi and carriers isn't a comparison with overpowered ships. (Except maybe with station games because healing someone should generate one minut weapon timer for the logi, not just the 20 remaining seconds...)
Its a comparison with ships that have upsides and downside, and obviously you've missed the downsides thus find them OP. Which they would be without downsides, but its not the case.

I check that on the test server asap. Still you can cap them out pretty easily ><

Forgive me, allow me to define my terms.

I have found them to be extreme force multipliers in small engagements. It would probably help if I was specific about what I meant here.

Let's take a scenario where it's 8-a-side. One side has 3 guardians and T2/3 cruisers. That side is able to provide something like 12,000 dps of repair to its attack ships and 8000dps of repair to other logis (which are in any case out of range and have frigate-sized sig radii).

The side that brought anything other than 3 logis is unlikely to find itself in a position where it can even remotely challenge the logi-backed side. Even it if brings EWAR (which reduces its DPS).

In an engagement of this size, the only counter to the logis is luck - getting simultaneous ECM locks an holding them for long enough to kill the 5 remaining DPS ships before they kill one of your EWAR ships or the ECM fails for a cycle (likely since guardians invariably carry ECCM).

The imbalance comes about because the guardians are not killable in this scenario. There is no 8-man fleet composition that can:
a) live long enough to reach them, AND
b) then do enough damage to them to remove them.

This is what I mean when I assert that they are OP in a small engagement.

Of course, as the size of the fleets grow, they become less of a force multiplier because the outcome is more dependant on alpha than sustained DPS (this is where the ishtar or dominix sentry doctrines start to shine, and why sentry assist should be altogether removed - but that's another thread).

The reason it's "OP" is because it has been minmaxed into something that works very well. If guardians communicate well and are on the ball, yeah, they are really hard to counter if you don't have logi yourself. Flying around and shooting one guy altogether isn't always enough to beat a fleet that does more than flying around and shooting one guy.

Why are you guys acting like this is a logistics cruiser ballance thread?

Logistics are I vital part of any fleet. Part of being a good FC it making sure you can counter enemy logistics with good e-war and if you know the other side has overwhelming logistics, you simply don't take the fight if you are not willing to loose.

Perhaps guardians could do with a little Leeds scan res and sensor strength but that's about it.

Because the truth always surfaces, even in the wrong places.

A triple-Guardian setup is EMINENTLY killable. Witness this battle we had just a few days ago. Slightly superior tactics and a late-fight addition of dual ECM won the day for us (the third Scorpion was a very late-fight addition, arriving just shortly before their evac fleet arrived), despite ZERO logi on the field at the start of the fight to their three Guardians, and one T1 Exequror after our Pilgrim was destroyed and its pilot reshipped. We were actually slightly over-matched in numbers, as we ended up with 11 on field and they brought in a Bhaalgorn and friends to break the tackle and evac what they could, leaving two of their three Guardians to die.

http://kb.ofsolitude.net/index.php/kill_related/5839/

Bizarre to hear that people think triple Guardians are "not killable". To me, that represents a dearth of creativity in dealing with them, because our trios of Guardians have been killed repeatedly in so many creative ways!

Neuts; an Armageddon or Curse can neut out a pair of Guardians indefinitely. A talisman-implanted Geddon can handle a trio, though it requires some creative juggling of targets and neuts. One Bhaalgorn and some cap support counters a trio handily. I've been on the losing end of this several times, and a well-flown neut boat is fearsome on the battlefield. A drone/neut Legion or Pilgrim is a solid 1-for-1 counter to logi.

Damps, particularly bonused ones, force logistics to close range where they get webbed, painted, primaried, and dead quickly.

ECM Falcons are the bane of Logistics everywhere.

ECM drones work well in large bunches, too; sacrifice some theoretical DPS to easily counter logi. I've watched local tanks and ECM drones used to great effect against logistics-dependent gangs.

Volley damage -- even in a small gang -- can remove all but the Guardian from a field extremely rapidly. The Guardian is special with that tiny signature and magnificent tank, for sure. It's why we use them heavily.

The Nestor would be a magnificent logi boat if only it had logistics rep range; all the same counters apply; it flies like a big Oneiros, more or less, or maybe a mini-carrier, but is much more vulnerable than its smaller cousins to those counters!

and all it took was three scorpions