Missions & Complexes

So wait, you want to make vast sweeping changes to large parts of eve that will significantly effect in one way or another every other part of eve without a single shred of evidence to back it up?

Help me out here but where exactly does your thought process breakdown?

You are either horrendously ignorant, misinformed (lied to) or trolling/lying (badly).

No one in their right mind will gank you just because you fly a Marauder. Where in the ever loving hells is the profit in ganking a Marauder?

A full faction/deadspace/officer fit Marauder however IS a target.

But see CCP likes HS mission runners, despite what some people would like you to believe. They added the almighty marauder, the bane of gankers and holy gift to mission runners everywhere and then MADE IT BETTER (bastion).

A T2 fit Marauder using only 3 modules for tank can get over 900dps OMNI tank (you can get more with specific tank). There isn't a mission in the game that even comes close to that kind of dps, even full room aggro. As a bonus you get around 100k ehp meaning pirates would need a lot of ships and players to kill you.

With that kind of defenses you can easily pimp out your lows with faction damage mods and even get a cheap deadspace repper and a gank squad wont look at you twice. Check my previous post for actual MATH (scary stuff I know).

Now you want to know what to spend you money on? How about a T2 damage rig or some of those super expensive 5/6% damage implants (pirates rarely go for pods as it decimates their sec status)? And the best part is that none of that will drop or show up on ship scans. It is also WAAAAY more effective than officer mods at increasing your mission completion times.

and then if you still have 15+bill burning a hole in your pocket buy a dread pilot and join a nullsec alliance so you can do some leet pvp or heck, go join a WH corp. They can always use more dread pilots.

Also, contrary to the misinformation being spread, a lot of people run lv4 missions, or pray off of them to get isk for PVP.

You know PvP right? That thing this game is about?

Same thing goes for incursions. You will be near guaranteed a spot in any fleet with a T2 fit mach/Nightmare with some select faction mods totaling no more than say 1.1 or 1.2bill. That's been my experience at least.

Im a new player, but it seems to me the golden rules should apply to high sec blinged to the teeth mission runners too, as they do everyone else in EVE.

Dont fly a ship you cant afford to lose.
Nowhere is safe (except docked in a station)
Be prepared to defend yourself at all times and in all places.

I can understand the sentiment of a high sec absolutely perfected mission running ship owner feeling that he/she has "deserved" the right to be able to fly around and spam the missions without a care in the world, but there is something of a smug and entitled aire to that, which contradicts the dangerous and risk vs reward fundaments of this game.

Because really, there is no risk from the NPCs anymore in such a ship.

That risk therefore has to come from players.
(Unless Missions where changed to include a chance of a dangerous spawn for example)

In other areas of the game, that risk factor is provided indirectly through competition, (such as other traders/manufacturers for the Market metagame, or other explorers in Exploration) but that is not the case for high sec missioning. Its your mission site, for all intents and purposes, and nobody is going to invade it to take your loots because all the other missioners are simply running their own mission sites. Nobody competes with you for it.

From what I understand, it takes no small amount of coordination, specialisation and substantial risk on the part of gankers to threaten these Missioning behemoths. For them, there is still a number of risk vs reward considerations. (Not least of which, is that all their effort may be for naught if nothing even drops) Whereas if there was no risk from gankers, there really is no risk at all left for the end-game mission runner.

As far as mitigating that risk of being ganked, there are already ingame expedient methods for that. Flying with less expensive modules. Not carrying large amounts of expensive cargo. The standard DScan alertness. Fitting a ship with the potential of a gank in mind in terms of PvP effectiveness (atleast to hold off till CONCORD arrives if not wardecced). The traditional Corp warfare and diplomacy options for collective security as well as ensuring safe mission running. Running missions in groups. Flying aligned when suspicious. Intel on the movements of known gankers.

High sec is already as safe as it gets in EVE. Should over the top blinged mission runners have no risk and be able to complacently fly about without a care? No. Neither does anyone else in EVE.

Ive heard of the term "carebear", and though I am too new to understand it in all its 10yrs of EVE evolution, its innuendo and connotations, I would posit that even the bear, as an appex predator in its own territory, must be wary of a hungry wolf pack on the roam from their own depleted hunting grounds... And even the bear, must be wary of Man (as indeed, human players in EVE are among the most insidious, sadistic and ingenious of all MMOs).

On a personal level, I find manyof the posts in this thread extremely distasteful. They stink of arrogance, self-entitlement, and trying to trying to mask protecting and holding ones own perceived privileges and entitlements, under the guise of some sort of justified indignation that "How can CCP allow these mongrels to scratch the paint on my super ship!? How can this happen!?"

I take from this three things:
1) First of all, I will reconsider exactly how bling my own Combat Exploration specialised fits are. Can I make do with cheaper? Yes, probably. Ill downgrade to avoid making myself a fat target.
2) Im sorely tempted to join in on the ganking myself to take these guys down a peg or two. What arrogance to presume they should be immune to any player action? To flaunt such wealth thinking you are safe, when everyone else takes precautions? And lastly, but not least, what potential for such excellently salty tears, from someone who doth protest their own perceived self-entitlement and privilegestp to such a degree as some in this thread? That, to me, alone, is worth more than any potential treasures from drops.
3) This game, our shared sandbox, is more important than any one individuals perceived fe7elings of entitlement. I dont care if you started yesterday or 10 years ago. The same rules apply to everyone, and what makes this game great, is in everyones interest to uphold and defend, even if that inconveniences ones own immediate interests. The game, and its continuity, comes first. Anyone trying to blackmail CCP from doing what is good for the game, in order to protect their own personal advantages, is rephrehensible in my consideration. I see a lot of that here. "I will unsub if I am not invulnerable in my bling ship in high sec!" How can anyone who appreciates the game, its community and its continuity even contemplate expressing that out loud?

Thank you.

Us new players are beset by constant dangers on all sides, the least of which is our own ignorance of the encyclopedic minutae of EVE, but also our lack of experience, low SP, and all that compounded by the countless predatory players out there waiting ro take advantage of that at every turn we take.

But guess what?
We LOVE it.
That is why we stay and play!

It worries me that such venerable Vets, with such astronomic wealth, experience and millions upon millions of SP, should forget what that feels like. To lose that part of the game, to lose that feeling of constant and imminent danger. And whats worse, to think that that is justified by replacing it with the concern instead of shaving 1s off a mission completion time...

I think thats terrible and sad.
I wouldnt wish that on even my worst and most sadistic enemy, in this, our shared sandbox of excellent gaming.

On the specifics of ganking, I know little. But I find it admirable, and of an exhilirating nature and conducive to the spirit of the game, that a group can organise 15 players in Destroyers for such a hit. That sounds fantastic to me. Those people sound like they are really playing the game!

I understand the bling missioner too. His reasons for doing it are as important as the gankers.
Perhaps he enjoys fine tuning his missions to the decimal of a second! Great!
Perhaps he is doing them to fund other activities? Superb!
But that he would not feel the thrill of danger and risk? No. That is unacceptable.
That, we, as the rest of the community (even us noobs) can NEVER allow to happen.
We owe each other more than that, here, in our shared sandbox and shared experience.

Edited to add: I appreciate this thread, and OP. If indeed ganking is on the up, missioners need to know about that, and this thread serves as a community broad base warning to missioners of that. Thats all excellent and great community interaction. But, I draw the line at petitioning or blackmailing CCP, and by extension The Game and the rest of us playing it, for some kind of PvP immunity for these tuned to the nines missioners.

The Golden Rules MUST always apply to everyone.

The most fun I've had in this game is going into null for exploration in a 30m isk Cheetah.

Still gets my heart up when you jump into a system with 10 people and bubbles on a gate.

It isn't the most lucrative activity, but it beats the pants off of mission grinding.

There is obviously a SP gate as you need to be able to scan (and scan well), plus it is nice to have data and arch analyzers ii.

If you are looking to pvp, I assume the 100 rifter (or any other combat frig) advice is still solid (buy 100 rifters. fight with them until you lose them all) which is pretty cheap all things considered.

i'm not sure if i didn't write it clear enough or if you selectively ignored my points.

1. flying expensive ships and getting better gear IS the game for many players. not everyone shares your opinion on eve being a pvp game.

besides, pvp doesn't mean you HAVE TO kill everything that you are able to just make a profit. obviously stronger LAWS (aka punishments) are required to keep your blood lust in check. the real world pretty much is a pvp setting as well, but we try to contain small groups or single people that go out of their way to kill others for profit... usually.

2. ccp's "rules" obviously have a loophole, when it's easy to make huge profits with little to no risk (all calculated). this is why i would say it's an exploit even though it's obvious the gankers and ccp themselves think otherwise. maybe because they are not mutually exclusive?

3. taken 1. and 2. into account you take every incentive from people from doing missions effectively and rid players of their enjoyment of progression in the game. a 1b fit on a 1b ship is not unreasonable imho.

4. my point with incursions was, that no one uses marauders for incursions any more. at least i haven't seen one in the last months. that's why their focus seems to lie on mission running. especially with that strange tractor beam bonus. of course you are perfectly fine with even a meta 4 macha/nm in many fleets.


i'm not a pvp player and i still have fun playing eve. AM I DOING IT WRONG?

Wait did you just say "it's an exploit even though it's obvious the gankers and ccp themselves think otherwise"??

To the best of my knowledge an "exploit" is going around a game mechanic to do something that was not intended by the game devs. If CCP intended this to happen it's not an exploit....

If CCP did something crazy like made it where all ships would be destroyed with one volley it would be an intended function. I don't think anyone would say if you shot a ship and destroyed it with one volley you were exploiting the game mechanics. One might argue this is a horrible design but not even close to an exploit.

You might have had some good points but it causes your whole argument to look bad when you mix something crazy like that in it....

I think those players might be happier in another game then. I think Blizzard makes an MMO designed around grinding for slightly better gear.

Wow... I can't believe this failnaught is still alive.

Let it die, guys, and the silly carebears with it.

I'm fine with that, but I was rebutting a post where the poster appears to completely fail to recognize that there is opportunity cost in ganking, and every time you wait around for a target, you risk that opportunity cost, and therefore the posters idea of the risk/reward in ganking is wrong.