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Gate Gun Iteration
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Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#21 - 2014-02-09 02:16:09 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why?

Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring.
So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?


Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#22 - 2014-02-09 02:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec.

And this is a problem... why?

Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years.

I will echo what has been said before... NPCs in EVE do not protect anyone... they discourage certain behaviors** by issuing penalties.

**You say Frigates can tank gate guns? I invite you to try using one under gate gun fire. My experience has been that most frigates and destroyers will pop within 2 to 4 volleys of a gate gun (see: they live for less 20 seconds) unless they are heavily tanked (which cuts into their performance in other areas, usually speed) or have sufficient support (in which case, the target/victim coming through a gate is screwed regardless).

Swiftstrike1 wrote:
It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while.

And here I (and many others) will again tell you that most of the problem with people not going to low-sec is perception and tactical stupidity.

You don't enter low-sec through the closest gate to a trade-hub (those are where gatecamps are most common and there are always other routes and ways around "chokepoints")... you certainly don't do so in a large, slow ship (faster, more agile ships have better odds of survival)... and you should never expect the NPCs protect or cover you in any way shape or form.
It's your task, like everyone else, to play smart and cover your own ass. If many of us low-sec dwellers and Faction Warfare people can survive and thrive down there... so can everyone else.



Also... if the history of EVE has shown anything it's that...

- slightly increasing penalties (in this way) does not discourage combat... but it does encourage ganking and stupidly overwhelming fleet compositions (as they are smarter tactics to use in the face of the things your are proposing) in addition to making it harder for the people who enjoy open conflict to wage it against one another.

- unless "safety" is heavily increased (we're talking to CONCORD "insta-pop" levels) it will still not be enough to encourage the most frightened/risk-adverse people to visit low-sec because there is still a good chance they will blown up with impunity.

How did you Veterans start?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#23 - 2014-02-09 07:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Michael Harari wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why?

Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring.
So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?


Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp.
I have many times. But most often a gate camp fit ship, is not suitable for group fighting. So it's either not fight or change. Then there are those quite often occasions, when we are baited and hot dropped. It doesn't always work, but it's fun all the same.

I'm not saying we wouldn't try to evade larger groups, we are after all trying to make ISK. We look at the most productive way of achieving that goal and I do not care if that entails leaving, in the face of an on coming blob.

But if we have run, then you succeeded. But thanks for yet more Ad hom attempts.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#24 - 2014-02-09 08:09:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Swiftstrike1 wrote:
Wow you are really vocal in your opposition to this. I think everyone gets that you don't like it. You can stop repeating yourself now.

The problem that you are insinuating doesn't exist is this - gate guns haven't changed since their inception, but the ships we fly have. They've changed a lot. Generally speaking, they've become much more powerful.

You probably want specifics so here goes... Numerous rebalances of everything over the years, Tech 2 modules, gang warfare links, Tech 2 ships (especially tech 2 logistics ships and command ships), Tech 3 cruisers, new Tech 1 logistics, Ancillayr tanking modules, Bastion modules, Micro jump drives, new deployable structures, etc... I've probably missed some stuff.

Ships and fleets have become a lot harder to kill over the years and gate guns have not changed at all. As a result, they no longer adequately perform the job they were intended to do. That is the problem.

Now as a result of this problem another problem has evolved. Over the years, lowsec has become increasingly more like nullsec and less like hisec. Yes there are some limitations on modules we can use and structures we can anchor, but the "protection" offered by the NPC empires in lowsec has become increasingly negligible over the years. If that protection was to become slightly beefed up it would shunt lowsec back towards hisec a little bit, where it is supposed to be. It doesn't even need to be increased, just changed enough to encourage people to go and explore the changes by living in lowsec for a while.
A few things you have wrong.

Gate guns now stop shooting you, if you warp out and back in and they do not now shoot drones. I think you'll find that's a decrease on power, not an increase.

NPCs do not protect, they punish. They do not care about your ship and whether of not it blows up, no matter what security you are in. All they are concerned with, is certain crimewatch rules and if they are broken.

Low sec wasn't ever like high sec and has always tended to be the wild west area of Eve. If you want a more gradual run to low, then look at breaking .6 and .5 systems. You could always suggest removing concord from those and introducing your guns.

Low sec is already open for exploration and living. There is really nothing but a lack of understanding, that stands between pilots and low sec. As ShahFluffers said, it's a perception problem.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#25 - 2014-02-09 19:59:08 UTC
So I think we might actually be making some progress here...

Omniscient gate guns
I completely agree this was an excellent and much needed change. It made no sense for all the guns in New Eden to shoot at you for some offence you committed 10 minutes and 15 jumps ago. My suggestion with regards to gate gun memory in the OP was not meant as a reversal of this. What I meant was that in an extended engagement on a gate, one possible change to gun behaviour would be to allow them (only the guns on that particular gate) to remember who they had been shooting at even if they warp out and in again. I was in no way suggesting that the guns in OMS should be instructed to shoot you on sight for a crime committed in Rancer.

Punishment vs Protection
Once again you're absolutely right... mostly. When a fight lasts longer than 30-60 seconds, punishing the offender and protecting the defender overlap since the guns are basically fighting in support of the defender. There's no remote assistance from the gate guns ofc, but putting DPS on the other guy still counts as support in a fight that lasts longer than 3 volleys.

Perception Barrier
We also agree on this point. "oh dear god, not lowsec!" is an all too common attitude that prevents people from leaving hisec. What better way to shine a light on the reality of the situation than a rebalance of lowsec C&P, Risk vs Reward, etc... starting with gate guns?

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#26 - 2014-02-09 20:34:24 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
What if we iterated gate guns out of the game?

I missed this the first time around. It's an idea worth considering.

Pros
  • increase fights on stations and gates
  • enables small ships with flimsy tanks to aggress without RR support
  • reduces server load (slightly) making big fights (slightly) smoother
  • makes solo piracy easier than it currently is
  • newer players will not incorrectly expect guns to protect them if there are no guns

    • 50/50
  • could lead to greater fear of lowsec, or people being better prepared when they do go there

    • Cons
  • makes lowsec logistics harder
  • consequently, less well established groups will not survive in lowsec
  • increases risk of lowsec without increasing reward

    • I genuinely didn't expect to come up with more pros than cons, but there ya go...

    Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
    Mario Putzo
    #27 - 2014-02-09 21:05:36 UTC
    What if a group owns over 50% of the Poco's in a Lowsec system then Gate and Station guns no longer shoot that group of people.

    Or what if they got rid of gate and station guns all together. That would be neat too.
    M1k3y Koontz
    House of Musashi
    Stay Feral
    #28 - 2014-02-09 23:33:11 UTC
    Gate gun damage should just ramp up slowly over time, at an exponential rate.

    That way I can justify bringing an interceptor Oops

    How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
    KiithSoban
    Mackies Raiders
    Wild Geese.
    #29 - 2014-02-10 00:08:12 UTC  |  Edited by: KiithSoban
    No.

    I actively FC roams in lowsec (check eve-kill). Changing gate gun mechanics in any way that is a "buff" would decrease pvp activity in lowsec. 90% of fights in lowsec still happen at gates. T1 logi have greatly increased lowsec pvp because they let you agress under gate guns more often (hence y I always bring at least two augs with me). I still despise the days when two BCs from one side, and one BC from another would stare at each other because whoever attacks first loses.

    Should gate guns be iterated to allow frigates to survive for a bit? Probably not since this would make it all but impossible to travel in low with some relative safety.

    I want to see logi appear on killmails! (by just repping)  See CSM "reasonable things"
    Michael Harari
    Genos Occidere
    HYDRA RELOADED
    #30 - 2014-02-10 01:31:25 UTC
    Mag's wrote:
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    Swiftstrike1 wrote:
    Mag's wrote:
    Why?

    Because as it currently stands, you can either tank the guns or you can't and it's easy to predict which category your ship/gang/fleet falls into. Frankly, it's a little boring.
    So you think gathering your friends together to fight pirates and having guns aid you, is boring?


    Lets not pretend like you actually fight people who show up to your gatecamp.
    I have many times. But most often a gate camp fit ship, is not suitable for group fighting. So it's either not fight or change. Then there are those quite often occasions, when we are baited and hot dropped. It doesn't always work, but it's fun all the same.

    I'm not saying we wouldn't try to evade larger groups, we are after all trying to make ISK. We look at the most productive way of achieving that goal and I do not care if that entails leaving, in the face of an on coming blob.

    But if we have run, then you succeeded. But thanks for yet more Ad hom attempts.


    Your suggestion was that they should fight your gatecamp. You just told us that you dont fight except when you get bridged on.
    Mag's
    Azn Empire
    #31 - 2014-02-10 12:24:30 UTC
    Michael Harari wrote:
    Your suggestion was that they should fight your gatecamp.
    No.

    Michael Harari wrote:
    You just told us that you dont fight except when you get bridged on.
    No.

    You're doing really well, please continue. Big smile

    Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
    Benar Ellecon
    Card games on MOTORCYCLES
    #32 - 2014-02-10 22:53:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Benar Ellecon
    Mag's wrote:

    Low sec wasn't ever like high sec and has always tended to be the wild west area of Eve. If you want a more gradual run to low, then look at breaking .6 and .5 systems. You could always suggest removing concord from those and introducing your guns.


    This ^

    Nice idea Mag's...

    Fly with your hair on FIRE!
    Little Dragon Khamez
    Guardians of the Underworld
    #33 - 2014-02-11 00:09:50 UTC
    Better yet, how about removing gate guns completely from low sec, they don't do a good job of protecting people, and any buffs to gate guns will generate complaints from fw and lowsec residents meaning that they don't do the job they were intended to do, I, e protecting travellers. They might as well just be removed.

    Make it plain to people that 0.4 or lower means that you are responsible for your own security.

    Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
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