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Why freighter bumping in High Sec is an exploit

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#121 - 2014-02-07 21:00:08 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Here how's this idea;
CCP please add a new freight container, password protected, 750k EHP, Size 25k m3, Capacity 20k m3 (So you lose 20% capacity). And make it unscannable and anchorable from a freighter/Orca, with only a distance from last needed for next launch, every 5km should still work. So once the bumping starts the freighter pilot can start jettisoning his load, if the aggressors don't get on grid in time they will only have an empty hull to shoot and the freighter pilot can go buy another ship to pick his stuff up with.


I think it's funny that you believe that a 20% loss of cargo capacity is a fair trade for near perfect safety.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#122 - 2014-02-07 21:04:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Here how's this idea;
CCP please add a new freight container, password protected, 750k EHP, Size 25k m3, Capacity 20k m3 (So you lose 20% capacity). And make it unscannable and anchorable from a freighter/Orca, with only a distance from last needed for next launch, every 5km should still work. So once the bumping starts the freighter pilot can start jettisoning his load, if the aggressors don't get on grid in time they will only have an empty hull to shoot and the freighter pilot can go buy another ship to pick his stuff up with.


I think it's funny that you believe that a 20% loss of cargo capacity is a fair trade for near perfect safety.

How is that safe? If the ganker's are on grid and ready when the ship comes through a gate they will have it dead before he gets one can out, if he is AFK autopiloting he losses everything and if the 20% penalty isn't enough then 30% hell 50% pick a number and I am sure the Industrials would agree it is worth it for defence against an unbeatable offence.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#123 - 2014-02-07 21:07:30 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
I am sure the Industrials would agree it is worth it for defence against an unbeatable offence.


We keep trying to tell you, the offense is not unbeatable.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#124 - 2014-02-07 21:14:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
I am sure the Industrials would agree it is worth it for defence against an unbeatable offence.


We keep trying to tell you, the offense is not unbeatable.

So here tell everyone reading how do you stop a freighter that's moving at 900m/s at a 90 degree angle from any 'warp to' and get it into warp (only defence is to be in warp). Since the bump happens before you go into warp, and the cargo is not a factor, and the defence of Logistics, webbing, over tank, or anything else is useless.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#125 - 2014-02-07 21:16:29 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
I am sure the Industrials would agree it is worth it for defence against an unbeatable offence.


We keep trying to tell you, the offense is not unbeatable.

So here tell everyone reading how do you stop a freighter that's moving at 900m/s at a 90 degree angle from any 'warp to' and get it into warp (only defence is to be in warp). Since the bump happens before you go into warp, and the cargo is not a factor, and the defence of Logistics, webbing, over tank, or anything else is useless.


Have you not realized yet that it's possible to web your freighter before you get bumped? If your escort is awake, anyway.

You lot are just doing your best to gloss over the actual methods to defend yourself, in order to ask for safety you don't need. It's a distressingly highsec attitude.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#126 - 2014-02-07 21:26:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:
I am sure the Industrials would agree it is worth it for defence against an unbeatable offence.


We keep trying to tell you, the offense is not unbeatable.

So here tell everyone reading how do you stop a freighter that's moving at 900m/s at a 90 degree angle from any 'warp to' and get it into warp (only defence is to be in warp). Since the bump happens before you go into warp, and the cargo is not a factor, and the defence of Logistics, webbing, over tank, or anything else is useless.


Have you not realized yet that it's possible to web your freighter before you get bumped? If your escort is awake, anyway.

You lot are just doing your best to gloss over the actual methods to defend yourself, in order to ask for safety you don't need. It's a distressingly highsec attitude.

Frieghter spawns up to 30 km from your web ship, lock time is 2 to 5 seconds, despawn freighter, lock freighter and apply webs, 2 to 4 seconds to get it into warp, total time is more than enough to get bumped. Then wait 30 seconds on the next gate for the aggression to fall off to hop the webber through and repeat.

You have a plan but you have never tried it, or you just feel like the louder you scream a lie the more true it will be.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2014-02-07 21:27:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Kenrailae
yeah Done right you can web yourself in just over the lock time of a rapier. Which is far faster than a Stabber....


Another Idea, travel with a damnation/Eos escort, with slaves on your freighter pilot, with mind link in your damnation/Eos with Skirm/armor load out in links. Augorors/Guardians helps too.


Increased ship agility from the links, much higher armor and resists, which slows your ship's max speed, reducing what you need to get to to warp, so webs work better, increases your survivability under fire, and really throws gankers for a loop and makes them think twice.


Or bring swarm of griffins. Every time a gank ship lands on field, pre lock it. Soon as it opens fire, jam it. Not 100% effective vs An alpha gank fleet, but even if you can stop them from taking that second shot, you significantly increase your chance of survival.

All it takes is a bit of thinking, and accepting that YEAH, you NEED to bring as much effort to survive to the table as they are bringing to the table to kill you.

But.... I guess that requires effort and planning, so cannot be done in High Sec.

EDIT: Don't warp straight from gate to gate either. Warp to a station so you can shed your aggression, OR bring a second webber and cycle them. Again, Effort and a LITTLE thought. -.-


EDIT 2: Fit a couple Sebo's on your Rapier, decloak it first, move it back to near zero on gate.... Again, Effort... and a little thought.

EDIT 3: Did you even think about any of this?

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#128 - 2014-02-07 21:38:59 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
yeah Done right you can web yourself in just over the lock time of a rapier. Which is far faster than a Stabber....


Another Idea, travel with a damnation/Eos escort, with slaves on your freighter pilot, with mind link in your damnation/Eos with Skirm/armor load out in links. Augorors/Guardians helps too.


Increased ship agility from the links, much higher armor and resists, which slows your ship's max speed, reducing what you need to get to to warp, so webs work better, increases your survivability under fire, and really throws gankers for a loop and makes them think twice.


Or bring swarm of griffins. Every time a gank ship lands on field, pre lock it. Soon as it opens fire, jam it. Not 100% effective vs An alpha gank fleet, but even if you can stop them from taking that second shot, you significantly increase your chance of survival.

All it takes is a bit of thinking, and accepting that YEAH, you NEED to bring as much effort to survive to the table as they are bringing to the table to kill you.

But.... I guess that requires effort and planning, so cannot be done in High Sec.

Your suggestion of bringing close to 2 billion worth of ships and support to each system you are moving stuff through, is absurd.

Logi's can at best counter one gank ship so 10 logi's, jammers can possibly disrupt 2 aggressors so 5 jammers, a command ship with 6 links to add 15% survivability, and a set of 2 billion ISK worth of implants to help by adding 6% to 10% agility.

This suggestion is to add a fleet of 20 guys 5 to 10 billion isk in ships and module with a total cumulative SP of 13 years of training all to counter 12 guys with 40 days of training, and still only get a 'possible' save.

Just broke me desk with the head drop.

And everyone keep bitching about Blob warfare, this is how we got here.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#129 - 2014-02-07 21:42:56 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Cassie Helio wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I'll give you the same response I've given every other 'Stop the Evil gankers' thread:


STOP assuming you can slowboat/autopilot your freighter with all your goodies and all your alliance's buddies stuff through high sec all on your onesie and be completely safe. You want to be safe from Gankers? Put the SAME or more effort into being safe as they are putting into ganking you.


Wanna know what the basics of a gank are?


1 or more scouts
1 or more haulers
4 or more gankers


At least 6 characters.


No, you cannot have a ship that is 100% safe from 6 characters focused on killing it. You want to be safe? Bring your buddies with you to escort you. What does it take for High Sec players in particular to realize that we've not been lying? Eve is designed to be played with people. The individual will ALWAYS be at greater risk. Want to be Safe? Play Eve the way it was meant to be: With friends. Safety in Numbers. Like a school of anchovies.


/Thread.


Still the problem with this is that the bumper can not be attacked without the defenders going criminal. It doesn't matter how many scouts or buddies you bring with you because the bumper is protected by CONCORD.



You're missing the point. If you have your own friends:

A) You can counter bump

B) You can web yourself into warp

C) You will not likely be ganked because the chance of success is too low

D) you can sacrifice a 10m isk cruiser to kill the bumper(gank it) and save the freighter

E) your playbook actually has some plays in it rather than sit there until they get bored or kill you

F) You can recover some of the drop, or else destroy all of it and deny them their prize

G) At least then you TRIED to do it right. And yeah, even then sometimes a gank will still succeed.

H) ANYTHING is better than being a cow lead to the slaughter house.


Why should he have to go through all this hassle just because some griefers gets off on ruining other peoples game experience? Theres a whole giant sector of space they can PvP in.
Bumping isnt some kind of cool vigilantly emergent game-play its the same sad arsed anti solo griefing that makes people quit, and supporting it just enables them and makes the game a poorer place.

"What you talking about willis"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#130 - 2014-02-07 21:42:59 UTC
Goldiiee wrote:

And everyone keep bitching about Blob warfare, this is how we got here.


Basically, because one player in an expensive ship shouldn't be able to trump a whole bunch of other players by himself?

It's pretty binary. Either pricetag wins, or effort and numbers wins.

And pricetag should never be the deciding factor.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#131 - 2014-02-07 21:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Goldiiee
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Goldiiee wrote:

And everyone keep bitching about Blob warfare, this is how we got here.


Basically, because one player in an expensive ship shouldn't be able to trump a whole bunch of other players by himself?

It's pretty binary. Either pricetag wins, or effort and numbers wins.

And pricetag should never be the deciding factor.

Are you getting confused, freighters are expensive, they are not agile, they have no tank, they can not be saved from a bumping mechanic and they can not be saved from a determined group of Turret Bankers.

The cargo is usually the haul of expedient marketing PVP, and many times is worth about 2% to 20% to the owner (Total profit after sale) so it is always worth more to the ganker since there is an up to 30% chance of a drop. So yes pricetag always wins. This is not some clever emergent game play, just field up to 150 mil in ships and take 30% of the total cargo's possible value.

These numbers mean gankers only need to find a ship with 450 mil in cargo to break even, but the freighter owner is out 1.1 bil in hull already, so he is out ISK as soon as he undocks. there is actually no cargo that makes the formula work in a positive way. And as stated by experts that actually fly these ships, once targeted for bump and gank you are out of luck.

Edit corrected typos.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2014-02-07 22:06:52 UTC
Another exhibit of why Carebears are unteachable.


'I put all my eggs in one basket and lost it, Nerf pls!'



'Why should I be expected to have to play Eve? Why can't I just go around collecting all my gold to by cool mounts with?'

And my favorite:


'Price and Skill points should always beat effort and know how.'



/Thread ladies and Gents.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#133 - 2014-02-07 22:21:17 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Another exhibit of why Carebears are unteachable.


'I put all my eggs in one basket and lost it, Nerf pls!'



'Why should I be expected to have to play Eve? Why can't I just go around collecting all my gold to by cool mounts with?'

And my favorite:


'Price and Skill points should always beat effort and know how.'



/Thread ladies and Gents.

Any eggs in that basket, are lost regardless of actions, 'All the eggs' Would be with the recommended (useless) fleet of protection.

If you think it is just hop around and collect your gold, your even more delusional that the rest. I know market toons that spend hours every night and day going through tedious market orders to get the right buy and right sell price, and only after months or years of painstaking meticulous attention do you start making the profits touted by the HTFU crowd with 21 day free account.

Skill points and price? Do you just wait to see a post flag and type any old crap that come to your head, is it some type of typing Tourette's?

Once again with feeling. 'The best players, with maxed SP and complete focused attention only have a slim chance of protecting the freighter in high sec.'

That is the definition of unbalanced game play, and should be addressed.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#134 - 2014-02-07 22:24:23 UTC
Dying because you refuse to take any defensive measures is not unbalanced gameplay.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#135 - 2014-02-07 22:28:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dying because you refuse to take any defensive measures is not unbalanced gameplay.

Once again, defensive measures are useless. Or are you still thinking the 10 billion ISK fleet with 12 years of SP is the way to go against the 10 'nothing to lose' minimum SP alts?

Once bumped regardless of fleet comp or cargo you are at the mercy of the Bumping pilot.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#136 - 2014-02-07 22:32:33 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Morwennon wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
And when a stabber, packing much, much more kinetic energy than a freighter, slams into it, what should happen?

A glass thrown at a brick wall has much more kinetic energy than the wall.

What happens to the glass when it hits the wall? What happens to the wall?



But a stabber isn't glass. It's basically a spear, made of the same stuff as the freighter.


And since we're in zero gravity here, a brick fired out of a mass driver at a brick wall is going to **** that wall up. You ever hear about the rods from god weapon theory?


To make this simple, imagine a rock hurtling towards an asteroid or comet, when they collide the larger body will be affected by the kinetic energy of the smaller object (mass * speed (2)* 0.5). The larger bodies momentum is calculated by (mass*velocity).

Since we are talking amount such an enormous mass here in comparison to the speed of the smaller object the speed is largely irrelevant given the relatively low speeds involved. So what happens is the small rock is destroyed instantly, and the larger object is very slightly affected although not in such a way that it changes direction completely as in bumping.


Take this into a typical eve situation.

So lets take a cruiser, mass = 10,000,000.00

Then lets take a freighter, mass = 1,000,000,000.00

The freighter has 100 x more mass than a cruiser.


Now take a look at the kinetic energy of a cruiser travelling at 1000 m/s

10,000,000 kg * 1000(2) * 0.5 = 50,000,000,000

Now the kinetic energy of the freighter travelling at 100 m/s

1,000,000,000 kg * 100(2) * 0.5 = 500,000,000,000

Even when the cruiser is travelling at 10* the speed of the freighter it still has 10* less kinetic energy.


Again if you compare the momentum of each ship;

The momentum of the freighter at 100 m/s is;

1,000,000,000 kg * 100 = 100,000,000,000

The momentum of the cruiser at 1000 m/s is;

10,000,000 kg * 1000 = 10,000,000,000

Again, the cruiser's momentum is 10* less than the freighters momentum.


Therefore by all measures the cruiser would simply bounce off the freighter or destroy itself in the process.



Lets run those again with a stabber, fit with a 1600mm plate and a battleship MWD. Which is what I was actually talking about here. (It fits with three RCU IIs and three T1 ACRs)

Mass of 63,462,500, travelling at a speed of 5718m/s.

That comes out as:

63 462 500 kg * 5718(2) * 0.5

=

1,049,730,667,425,000

Which, I'm sure we can agree, is a very large number. Much, much larger than the kinetic energy of a freighter. And I believe you get even more out of a stabber fleet issue. Should this still do nothing, when we're talking several orders of magnitude?


(And before you ask, the mass comes from:
Stabber: 11,400,000
1600mm steel plate: 2,062,500
MWD: 50,000,000)

Yes I purposefully left the weight of the MWD out of the equation because it is illogical that a ship only 10mil kg could fit a propulsion mod which weighs five times it's weight without affecting it's velocity.
Goldiiee
Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
#137 - 2014-02-07 22:51:39 UTC
I will restate it, I think a container with a 20% to 50% capacity penalty, capable of fitting in a T1 hauler that can be jettisoned when the bumping starts is great idea. If they gank the freighter the gankers can make a killing by selling t1 haulers at 300% over market base in the same system, and then try to gank them when they arrive to scoop the cans.

Or like the exploration mini game 'loot spew' they can pick a can and blow it up to see what's inside. See I'm adding content with every typed word.

Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.
Hashatis
Sphere Foundation
#138 - 2014-02-07 23:17:21 UTC
Well, one way to fix is, unless you are in the same fleet, if you bump into a ship you locked you will be flagged. Without locking your ship simply passes through other ships without bumps

That should fix it nicely
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#139 - 2014-02-07 23:47:04 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Yes I purposefully left the weight of the MWD out of the equation because it is illogical that a ship only 10mil kg could fit a propulsion mod which weighs five times it's weight without affecting it's velocity.


...So you left out the thing that proves my point because you don't like it? I think that just strengthens toe claim tha a stabber could obliterate a freighter with one bump if we had collision damage, don't you?




Hashatis wrote:
Well, one way to fix is, unless you are in the same fleet, if you bump into a ship you locked you will be flagged. Without locking your ship simply passes through other ships without bumps

That should fix it nicely



Congrats, you just broke docking games. And buffed supercaps. And caps too.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#140 - 2014-02-08 00:19:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:

Yes I purposefully left the weight of the MWD out of the equation because it is illogical that a ship only 10mil kg could fit a propulsion mod which weighs five times it's weight without affecting it's velocity.


...So you left out the thing that proves my point because you don't like it? I think that just strengthens toe claim tha a stabber could obliterate a freighter with one bump if we had collision damage, don't you?


I left the MWD's weight out of the equation because you can still bump the freighter without an oversized MWD fitted.