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ECM Rebalance idea
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GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-02-06 18:03:42 UTC
ECM is by far the worst mechanic in game, Since Get rid of it wont happen for sure i got an idea.


1. you CANT activate ecm mod past its range whitch should be nerfed to mach huggin web range but can be raised but proper rigs ( no more sniper falcons) this actually should be implemented to damps aswell

2. you NEED racial specific jammer to jam a specific ship. Multispecs should be nerfed in strenght

3. eccm makes you IMUNE to ecm (currently eccm wont help you at all even if you fit two of those, the falcon still jamms you)


those 3 things would make the game experience better for everyone.

Falcon pilots keep their falcons and we get rid of this ridicously opness of this mechanic.
Dr0000 Maulerant
Union Nanide and Tooling
#2 - 2014-02-06 18:12:34 UTC
You're either flying a frigate or using the wrong ECCM. Either way, ewar sucks to be on the business end of and that's how it's supposed to be.

Damp em, neut em out or sick the drones on em.

Tell me again about how every playstyle you dont engage in "doesn't require any effort" and everyone who does it needs to die in a fire. Be sure to mention about how you tried it once but it was too easy/boring/ethnic-homophobic slur. 
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-02-06 18:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Heeeeellpp, I'm being swept away by the tears!




Seriously though. ECM is the least powerful form of Electronic warfare in the game. It was fairly strong, then CCP nerfed the range and power, which lowered effective jamming at long range, then introduced the sensor compensation skill, which nerfed it even harder by bumping pilot sensor strength further. players can cycle overheat ECCM to further increase sensor strength, and most ECM ships are flimsy as paper.

Nowdays unless you have a reasonably certain idea that you are going to meet an important large section of one race (Heavy armor t3 fleets in WH's always bring guards for example) jamming form ECM is infrequently used in most pvp.

Edit: Multispecs are garbage, just ask any ecm pilot.




TLDR: Dafuq are you talking about.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-02-06 18:35:07 UTC
Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.
GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#5 - 2014-02-06 18:39:31 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.



i like that idea,

make a thread about it
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-02-06 18:45:01 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.



While this would allow a greater flexibility in switching jam types on the fly, it hardy solves the underlying issues that is the more jams you fit, the less tank you can fit, excepting ecmgu and 1600 plate BB.

We already have a measure of flexibility in the form of the mobile depot. I for one carry a depot and spare racial ECM mods for when we find a large target like a pair of carriers: I can swap out all my racials to the same type in order to try and break a dual carrier rep circle jerk. I'm not sure quick swapping of scripts on a multispec would be a beneficial gameplay mechanic, especially since it eliminates the use of racial jammers altogether.
GREYBOBSASS
Doomheim
#7 - 2014-02-06 18:57:46 UTC
thing is that ECM in its current for is totally OP in solo scenarios. we need soething that keeps it viable in fleet fights

fighting a gang where 2 falcons show up and you get 12 jammers in your face where each of them have a chance to jam you is totally OP. the scripted one would allow eccm to make sense on a solo ship or something the falcon would get tankier but at least i could do SOMETHING and not just sit there and wait until i die. webs and painters are not htat cruel,
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-02-06 19:19:45 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.



While this would allow a greater flexibility in switching jam types on the fly, it hardy solves the underlying issues that is the more jams you fit, the less tank you can fit, excepting ecmgu and 1600 plate BB.

We already have a measure of flexibility in the form of the mobile depot. I for one carry a depot and spare racial ECM mods for when we find a large target like a pair of carriers: I can swap out all my racials to the same type in order to try and break a dual carrier rep circle jerk. I'm not sure quick swapping of scripts on a multispec would be a beneficial gameplay mechanic, especially since it eliminates the use of racial jammers altogether.


Change to scripts = less jammers because no need to prefit for racials. Generally the issue with ECM in fleet (at least from a lowsec warfare perspective) is that you don't normally have a good idea what ships the enemy fleet is going to fly without advanced intel. Generally 2 jammers works for permajamming a single ships. if you have 4 jammers with the proposed mechanic, you have the option of jamming two separate races of ships out without the guesswork of shooting in the dark with "lolarmor maybe?" and going with amarr/gal, to give an example.

In short, being able to shapeshift your appearance when you get to a party is superior to having to guess or figure out what kind of party it is, who will be there, and what you should wear before you go.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-02-06 19:21:09 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Meanwhile, people like you are the reason no viable changes to ECM will come about. Can't tell if trolling or just stupid.

If you REALLY wanted a proper rebalance, you'd recognize that ships that field ECM gimp almost every aspect of their flexibility to do so; they take up an inordinate number of mid slots, which severely hampers their fitting flexibility, especially in shield fleets.

A PROPER rebalance would simply be completely getting rid of racial jammer types, and switch them to racial scripts that can be loaded into the multispec ecm mod. Simple, elegant, useful. Problem solved.



While this would allow a greater flexibility in switching jam types on the fly, it hardy solves the underlying issues that is the more jams you fit, the less tank you can fit, excepting ecmgu and 1600 plate BB.

We already have a measure of flexibility in the form of the mobile depot. I for one carry a depot and spare racial ECM mods for when we find a large target like a pair of carriers: I can swap out all my racials to the same type in order to try and break a dual carrier rep circle jerk. I'm not sure quick swapping of scripts on a multispec would be a beneficial gameplay mechanic, especially since it eliminates the use of racial jammers altogether.


The fact that you are USING a mobile depot to circumvent a game mechanic should be evidence enough that it needs to be changed in exactly the way I stated...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#10 - 2014-02-06 19:25:40 UTC
GREYBOBSASS wrote:
thing is that ECM in its current for is totally OP in solo scenarios. we need soething that keeps it viable in fleet fights

fighting a gang where 2 falcons show up and you get 12 jammers in your face where each of them have a chance to jam you is totally OP. the scripted one would allow eccm to make sense on a solo ship or something the falcon would get tankier but at least i could do SOMETHING and not just sit there and wait until i die. webs and painters are not htat cruel,



Sensor damps and tracking disruptors are OP in solo as well. I apologize for my harsh tone earlier; caldari tends to get the shaft for fleet ops a lot, and ECM tends to be a little overlooked by CCP.

If your concern is solo, perhaps they could continue the line they were introducing with the overheating mechanics? Basically, more or less limit EWAR to ewar boats in the same way logi is limited to logi boats. As much as I enjoy flying a TD condor, it would be far more appropriate in my mind to have each race be the main applier of its own racial ewar type. The exception I would raise to this would be have T2 caldari boats get target painting bonuses, if that's not too much to ask. :)
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2014-02-06 19:54:41 UTC
ECM has been nerfed all over and no other e-war is as demanding of the pilots ship. Have u tried using ECM on a non-bonused ship that has not swapped almost all, if not all, of its mids for jammers? let me tell u, it basically doesnt work. Where other e-wars have 100% chance of having an effect as long as they are in optimal, ECM is a chance based mechanic even within optimal, and then it has to suffer from fall off on top of that.

If u have the problem with the falcon, then say falcon. But the ship is paper thin in tank, and serves no purpose if it cannot jam even one ship. so stop flying just one ship against it.

damps and tracking disruptors, not just ecm, will cripple a solo player. Thats the nature of e-war. and if ur still getting perma jammed by a falcon despite using 2 ECCM mods, then he must be fully fit against ur sensor type (lucky/clever him), or u really do have the wrong ECCM on ur ship.

TL:DR if u want to counter e-war, bring more pilots.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2014-02-06 20:12:30 UTC
Sensor damps are OP Solo, ECM is OP solo, TD's are OP Solo, Damage is OP Solo, Friends are OP solo, being aware is OP solo, being Velociraptor Jesus is OP solo.


Suck it up. If multiple well fit ships are attacking you solo, you're going to have a bad time. There is no way to change the ECM to magically render it useless against a solo target while still permitting it's use in large fleets.

Honestly, stop.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-02-06 23:33:46 UTC
GREYBOBSASS wrote:
ECM is by far the worst mechanic in game, Since Get rid of it wont happen for sure i got an idea.


1. you CANT activate ecm mod past its range whitch should be nerfed to mach huggin web range but can be raised but proper rigs ( no more sniper falcons) this actually should be implemented to damps aswell

2. you NEED racial specific jammer to jam a specific ship. Multispecs should be nerfed in strenght

3. eccm makes you IMUNE to ecm (currently eccm wont help you at all even if you fit two of those, the falcon still jamms you)


those 3 things would make the game experience better for everyone.

Falcon pilots keep their falcons and we get rid of this ridicously opness of this mechanic.





And instead everyone flies with sensor damps, puts you down to a 5km lock range and kills you anyway.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-02-07 02:17:47 UTC
For 2 and 3 what were you flying and how many were going for the falcon?

I sense you were trying to solo a falcon with a ship with a real low base signal strength. If so you are working wth the law of averages. I have 5 jammers on you I have 5 chances to hit you.

If multspecs what was the falcon fit? To make them work is the ecm tank fit. Ie....no tank mods/rigs and pure electronics rigs and lows. Wet paper bags are stronger tank wise.

Did you bring a sniper? I ran cerbs for this very purpose. Mixed fleet. 4 ships bum rushing the falcon that can't shoot 5 feet past the barrel are putting themselves in a postion to be jammed. Have jsut 1 ship shoot LR even if only to the point its in falloff range where the math starts to really work against the ecm pilot.

Either they will kill the falcon or scare it off. I have used this tactic and had it used against me. I in falcon will say in simple terms in comms kill that damn sniper fast or I am out when getting beat up

If I am not on the field, guess what I can't do? Hint: starts with j, ends in m and has an a in the middle
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#15 - 2014-02-07 02:52:49 UTC
Maybe the way to fix ECM is not so much in the Range issue, but more in the way that ECM is a binary function, either you can target stuff or you can't target stuff. Maybe we need something less binary.

Idea:
ECM always works, in the same ways that Guns always work.
Racial ECM reduces the max targets by upto 6
Wreaking: -6
Excellent: -5
Well Aimed: -4
Hit: -3
Light hit: -2
Scratch: -1
Miss: 0

Effect lasts for twice the cycle time. if you mange to get 2 Wrecking hits in a row, even a Logi is taken completely out of the fight.

MultiSpec ECM is half as effective as the Racials
Wreaking: -3
Excellent: -2 or 3
Well Aimed: -2
Hit: -1 or 2
Light hit: -1
Scratch: -0 or 1
Miss: 0

Effect lasts for 3 times the cycle time.

The locks removed from ECM reduction of Max Targets is random, therefore your Primary target, may or may not be removed. Even if you only have 1 target locked.

ECCM Prevents Locks from being taken away, similar to the way that Batteries prevent Cap from being taken away.
Meta 0 -4 = 1 Lock Saved
Meta 5 = 2 Locks Saved
Meta 5+ = 3 for some and 2 with better fitting on others
Linkxsc162534
Silent Scourge
#16 - 2014-02-07 03:27:41 UTC
I've found that sensor damps tend to be a great counter to ECM, especially if they're lock range scripted.

Other than that, I do rather like the idea of "scripted" ECMs. Adds more ability to the ECM pilot to actually do their job (though give it a 10 second reload time, so they can't quite be switched "on the fly" rather, the falcon should wait around for a little bit not the fight before popping up to do his job).

Berhaps this could be done
Keep dedicated racial ones, and keep them at current power (dedicated mods yeh)
Scripting a multispec to a race will drop other races, but ofcourse buff the chosen jamming, However it would stay weaker then a hardware dedicated racial jam
And then its just a multispec like normal without a script in it.

There you have some versitility added to your jammers, and they could be potentially useful to throw on ships that aren't a BB or a Falcon.

To counter this.
add a rig to the game, that outright changes the racial sensor mode of your ship. There would be 4 of these, 1 for each type. And your ship would just become a degree more confusing to your enemies about how to jam out.

Ofcourse this will nerf your fit a bit in regards to (well most people rig for tanking so usually they'll lose a bit of tank) but now jammers have no clue what to do. Might not be so effective for a roving gang, but I could very well see their usage on logis, and other Ewar ships. As well as having a couple of ships with them stored around in your POSes in the case that a gang comes by and they do have ECM with them.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#17 - 2014-02-07 03:36:24 UTC
sensor damps are OP.. ask the CFC and the people who whine about the CFC celeste fleets :P

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#18 - 2014-02-07 09:36:13 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Maybe the way to fix ECM is not so much in the Range issue, but more in the way that ECM is a binary function, either you can target stuff or you can't target stuff. Maybe we need something less binary.

Idea:
ECM always works, in the same ways that Guns always work.
Racial ECM reduces the max targets by upto 6
Wreaking: -6
Excellent: -5
Well Aimed: -4
Hit: -3
Light hit: -2
Scratch: -1
Miss: 0

Effect lasts for twice the cycle time. if you mange to get 2 Wrecking hits in a row, even a Logi is taken completely out of the fight.

MultiSpec ECM is half as effective as the Racials
Wreaking: -3
Excellent: -2 or 3
Well Aimed: -2
Hit: -1 or 2
Light hit: -1
Scratch: -0 or 1
Miss: 0

Effect lasts for 3 times the cycle time.

The locks removed from ECM reduction of Max Targets is random, therefore your Primary target, may or may not be removed. Even if you only have 1 target locked.

ECCM Prevents Locks from being taken away, similar to the way that Batteries prevent Cap from being taken away.
Meta 0 -4 = 1 Lock Saved
Meta 5 = 2 Locks Saved
Meta 5+ = 3 for some and 2 with better fitting on others


That is absolutely brilliant, and the fact that you have numbers to back up your idea makes it that much prettier. It would wreck holy hell on logistics formations, and would be balanced in-game already considering how many max targets t2 logi has as a base.

To clarify, you're basing the amount of target locks lost from the max locked each ship can have, since that's their electronic capability, or from pilot skills?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#19 - 2014-02-07 09:50:01 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers
Version 1.0.3 10/21/13
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.



If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.

Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Vizvig
Savage Blizzard
#20 - 2014-02-07 11:02:42 UTC
But ECM already has failed his competition versus more powerful ewar.

And then almost completely extinct.
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