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Margin Trading

First post First post
Author
Froggie Ribbit
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-01-26 21:04:15 UTC
According to the Forums postings on this issue IE https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=298037&find=unread , CCP had a fix ready to go in the recent Rubicon expansion- but held off because the CSM talked them out of it. Apparently, according to the posts in the forum debate, the vast majority of the players who voiced their opinion want this issue resolved- and soon. Yet the CSM has actively blocked CCP's efforts to present a fix, in accordance with a large portion of the players wishes. Is the CSM like every other elected body? IE: Say whatever you want us to hear to get elected then ignore the majority of the players to focus on a few "special interest groups"... Or are you actually interested in giving the FULL player base a voice to CCP. Considering the forum thread was started by CCP to address the issue, it would seem that they don't have much faith in the CSM's representation, why else would they appeal directly to the players for their opinions? Isn't that what the CSM is supposed to be there for? And why would the CSM actively oppose CCP's attempts to close a technical exploit? Unless, of course, the CSM were the ones profiting the most by exploiting the technical issue. Or are the CSM's just interested in free trips to the land of frozen shark meat... What little faith I ever had in the CSM as a representation of the players has been tainted by the revelation that they openly opposed the Devs desire to fix a technical exploit in the game.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#2 - 2014-01-26 21:32:27 UTC
It is my understanding that the CSM opposing an idea put forth by CCP is a thing that happens because CCP has a bad idea, and the CSM is pointing out why. It's not like the CSM has arbitrary power to change the game; when they support or oppose a position, then need reasons. In this case, the reason is that the fix proposed would've technically fixed the one specific issue at hand (margin trading scams being possible in part due to the market interface 'lying') in exchange for a non-trivial nerf to market play in general. They opposed the nerf, which would've had a rather more significant negative impact on the playerbase than the scam. That's a good thing, IMO.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#3 - 2014-01-28 20:03:43 UTC

Perhaps the CSM brought up viable uses for the margin trade skill, and that stayed the CSM's hand.

Furthermore, the initial two "solutions" proposed by the CCP Dev have issues which were elaborated on in that thread.

If you want to "fix" margin trading, there is one very simple solution:

Add a "verify order with the broker" function to all market orders. This on-demand function has the game verify that enough funds exist to fulfill the order. Of course, it is proper to pay the broker for performing this check (1m isk or so).

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#4 - 2014-01-28 22:54:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Perhaps the CSM brought up viable uses for the margin trade skill, and that stayed the CSM's hand.

Furthermore, the initial two "solutions" proposed by the CCP Dev have issues which were elaborated on in that thread.

If you want to "fix" margin trading, there is one very simple solution:

Add a "verify order with the broker" function to all market orders. This on-demand function has the game verify that enough funds exist to fulfill the order. Of course, it is proper to pay the broker for performing this check (1m isk or so).



there is an even more simple solution, get rid of margin trading, refund SPs and move on.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#5 - 2014-01-30 15:00:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Or even a simple warning, that tells users that orders are not guaranteed and buyer beware.

There is nothing wrong with margin trading or the skill used. The error comes from those who make bad investments, believing they are going to make some nice ISK and blaming everything but themselves.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

SCIACARL MARTE
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-02-05 15:07:41 UTC
My first idea is that margin trading skill is correct if used within the median item price a bit more o less (a 10%), it need only to be pulled out from the scammers that use it. But now in fact must believe tha it must be removed because every buy order must be fully ISK covered, isn't more a only scam problem, it affect also the healty trader.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#7 - 2014-02-05 20:31:33 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Perhaps the CSM brought up viable uses for the margin trade skill, and that stayed the CSM's hand.



Unpossible

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#8 - 2014-02-05 20:33:57 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Perhaps the CSM brought up viable uses for the margin trade skill, and that stayed the CSM's hand.

Furthermore, the initial two "solutions" proposed by the CCP Dev have issues which were elaborated on in that thread.

If you want to "fix" margin trading, there is one very simple solution:

Add a "verify order with the broker" function to all market orders. This on-demand function has the game verify that enough funds exist to fulfill the order. Of course, it is proper to pay the broker for performing this check (1m isk or so).



there is an even more simple solution, get rid of margin trading, refund SPs and move on.


margin trading has very high utility. The vast majority of margin orders are fulfilled. A few vocal complainers on the forums do not always outweigh the many many people who have a use for the skill.

And since the margin trading scam only affects people who think that they're taking advantage of another player - in effect, scamming them - my sympathy for the "victims" is marginal at best.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#9 - 2014-02-07 03:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Nothing needs to be done about Margin Trading. It is pure social engineering. You're made to believe that a too-good-to-be-true deal is at your fingertips, and then the rug is pulled out from under you at the last minute. The best way, as usual, to protect oneself against scams of this sort is to actually be familiar with the market. If something looks off, then it usually is.

Those who complain about the Margin Trading scam really need to ask themselves this question: how does having the rug pulled out from under you via the Margin Trading scam differ from somebody simply happening to fill the buy order before you? I can't think of any functional difference between those two scenarios. You are not entitled to fill a buy order just because you bought some items and have them at the ready for doing so.

The Margin Trading scam is a non-issue that people only think is an issue because a certain skill happens to be used to facilitate it. I can understand why it's easy to think that you're being scammed by some broken aspect of the skill, but that's absolutely not what's happening. The skill is working as intended, and you're being psychologically manipulated. It's not some sort of "I win" button that another player can press and instantly relieve you of your ISK. You have to be ignorant about market conditions. You actively choose, at every step of the way, to participate.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#10 - 2014-02-07 13:00:50 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts.

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


That said, as this is in essence a duplicate discussion thread on the same topic, it gets a lock.

16. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked.

As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)