These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2281 - 2014-02-05 00:58:37 UTC
Obligatory weekly post in the perpetual never ending and apparently unlockable "make all the hisec ppl quit so null can feel special" thread :D

See you all again in 7 days.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2282 - 2014-02-05 01:01:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It doesnt matter if a lot of people don't do it, it matters because the people from null can do it and are doing it.
This is a good point, and I'll concede to this.

Quote:
We have told you we are doing this, we have shown you that we can do this and we have told you how to do this. Yet people still continue trying to say its not happening. We have infact provided you with more evidence than we provided to CCP when we were abusing FW to make tens of billions.

Like I said earlier, IF this indeed is rampant, even among null sec players, then I'm all for a blitz fix. But don't assume that because you're able to pull 100+ mil that it is the norm or even sustainable, because this hasn't been shown to be (yet). In fact, Kimmi stated one of his missions was interrupted during his test. And I've had my missions interrupted as well. This is just ONE example of what could happen. And he (she?) has yet to even come close to 100 mill. And I'd probably have a ramp-up time to achieve this number, if even ever.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2283 - 2014-02-05 01:04:07 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:


That's a self-selecting sample set right there, unless you're also claiming that you killed every single Mackinaw you saw?




We killed every single ship that tried to mine caldari ice in high sec for a month.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2284 - 2014-02-05 01:04:13 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Onictus wrote:
Oddly I've never paid attention, I think if they drifted I would have noticed at some point.

The completion times are long enough that I have docked up, halfway through a mission, went to dinner, stopped and had a couple drinks with a friend on the way home and STILL got the completion time bonus.

They are in no way indicative of actual completion times unless you are using an assualt frig or something silly like that.

Well, I'm pretty sure they do, unless this has changed some where down the line within the past few months. Maybe someone else can confirm. But yes, I agree that for older, more experienced vets, the completion times are more than enough.

I'll admit that, using these times to 'measure' mission time averages is not reliable, but it's probably the best indication we have as to how long it's taking.


Several hours at least. Only way to fail them is to forget to turn them in before you go to bed or work.

Just to be clear, I'm referring to the bonus completion time, not the mission completion time, which is usually days.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2285 - 2014-02-05 01:05:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
La Nariz wrote:

Stoicfaux provided the proof there is evidence of ~100m isk/hr from highsec missions and I provided proof that ~70m isk/hr for drone hub ratting. All of this stuff has been provided but, you all don't read it and continue to scream as loud as you can that highsec is fine. The only one of you that even attempted to prove this was Kimmi the others are either terminally stupid or shitposting. There's been plenty of proof provided by the pro-nullsec crowd and yet all the pro-highsec crowd, aside from a select few, is scream incoherently.

If removing blitzing isn't enough then the other two ideas that haven't been addressed are stretching missions through multiple systems or adding high HP low isk/LP enemies to missions.

Other than the small facts that get in the way.
Like Stoicfaux specifically said that 100m was an edge case and not the standard rate as it was reliant on a bunch of factors. And was done using a super bling ship.

And your 70m was actually 90-100m when done properly since you deliberately low balled it as much as possible, and were using a T2 fitted HAC instead. So if you had used the above super bling ship, your income while running would have been a lot higher. And if he had been using a T2 fitted HAC, his income would be lower.

And none of your 'Look at how we can play with individual isk/hr statistics to say what we want' has explained a thing about the gross income of a null player being approximately four times higher per capita pre ESS (So properly leveraged would now be five times higher) than the High Sec per capita income.
Null Earns more isk than high earns in combined isk & LP. Now with the ESS since Goons have taken all of 48 hours to work out how to use it safely, that is going to go up in Null.

So other than deliberately biased figures which don't count, nothing suggests High needs a Nerf in overall income levels.



No null DOESN'T earn more....period. To much time is lost to campers and roaming gangs.

The reason that we are no using super bling in anoms is because battleships are so damn slow now you may not beat a dictor back to station.....that is IF you don't get zerged by interceptors that are on grid before you can align. So you use hacs and T3s and head for a safe, its the only way to make sure you aren't on grid when a gang hits the system.

This is why I basiacally stay the hell out of anoms, its easier to sit in high on an alt and for the same amount of time I will make more money because that 70mil in nulll relies on being left alone for hours.

....which nearly never happens.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2286 - 2014-02-05 01:06:43 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:


That's a self-selecting sample set right there, unless you're also claiming that you killed every single Mackinaw you saw?




We killed every single ship that tried to mine caldari ice in high sec for a month.

Bwahahaha, yea, that's an outright lie. I know for fact you didn't kill everyone.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2287 - 2014-02-05 01:10:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Onictus wrote:
Those times don't change....

.....and how the HELL do you waist 5 hours doing a worlds collide? Hell I can full clear a Blockade between bounty ticks, and that isn't fancy that is a 19mil toon with a T2 fit mostly.


Here's how you "waste" 23 hours doing Worlds Collide:

  • Day 1: Receive mission, clear X & Y base
  • Day 2: Warp to mission again, clear X & Y base
  • Day 3: Warp to mission again, clear X & Y base
  • Day 4: Warp to mission again, clear X & Y base
  • Day 5: Warp to mission again, clear X & Y base
  • Day 6: Warp to mission again, clear X & Y base, rescue hostages, hand mission in


Of course, on Day 1 you're also doing this:

  • Farm Worlds Collide from agent A
  • Farm Angel Extravaganza from agent B
  • Farm Blockade from agent C
  • … etc for all available agents in this hub


If CCP wanted to nerf "farming" like this, a number of options exist some of which could be:

  • Introduce a "Mission Agent Management" skill into Social to complement the Research Project Management skill, each level allows 1 more active mission over the 1 that all pilots receive by default.
  • Preserve mission dungeon state over downtime
  • Reduce mission expiry time to a day or two after a mission has been accepted


Since mission farmers are doing this to maintain a steady stream of stuff to blow up and aren't going to be reaching the lofty 100M ISK/hr heights of dedicated blitzers, there's not much of an issue here really. It's just that the mission reward value is over-estimated due to the calculated "difficulty" of these missions.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2288 - 2014-02-05 01:11:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Bwahahaha, yea, that's an outright lie. I know for fact you didn't kill everyone.


Yes, we did. The high sec ice belts were/are so few that we could camp them 24/7. We did this 4 times and each time it was an utter success that netted us hundreds of billions.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2289 - 2014-02-05 01:20:11 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

The problem, mister science teacher, is that you spend more time accusing others of not listening when you yourself don't listen and instead go on spouting 13-year-old mantra, like "pubbie" and such stuff.

I have no reason to doubt that Stoic indeed ran 34 missions to average 100+ mill. He provided evidence that it is indeed possible to achieve 100+. BUT, and here is where you fail or do not care to listen, that does not indicate that this is the norm or even sustainable, as has been claimed earlier in the thread.


I do listen but, I expect you to make a cogent argument against the topic at hand and not a strawman. If you decided to do something stupid like that I'm not going to take you seriously or give you a good response. Its proof it occurs and can occur with a moderately skilled pilot, 1-2 year old pilots. "Think of the newbies" doesn't work in this context because newbies don't run L4s. I agree though that the newbies should be considered and if we're going to do that it means decreasing the income from L4 and L3 then giving it to L1 and L2. That way new players have better access to income and it also achieves the highsec income nerf.

His sample is representative enough and if you want to get data to prove otherwise surveymonkey is free go ahead, prove his data is not representative. You just stating stuff doesn't mean a thing.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#2290 - 2014-02-05 01:20:15 UTC
holy moly this thread is moving fast
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#2291 - 2014-02-05 01:24:41 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Honestly, I find it rather amusing that people have such a hard-on for hisec.

I mean, 130 pages of serious posting from Baltec of all people, god damn that's impressive.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#2292 - 2014-02-05 01:24:53 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

Its much like when we ran our ice interdictions. Everyone knew it was happening yet out of 600 killed macks not a single one had tanked their ship.

I agree that the tanked ones wouldn't show up on your KB since you didn't actually kill any of them.
balrec1 wrote:
We killed every single ship that tried to mine caldari ice in high sec for a month.

I mined 1.7b ice during your interdiction and I can assure you that my miner not once lost a ship. Got bumped a few times and a few pathetic gank attempts by some your more excitable members that didn't bother scanning first, but came out just fine.

You'd get plenty of respect for what you actually manged to do. It was an effective campaign without a doubt, but you always have to push it. BS does not win you any points. Just makes you look sad.

Mr Epeen Cool
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2293 - 2014-02-05 01:28:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Good post, Mara. And what you said is exactly the reason which leads me to believe not a lot of players are blitzing missions.


You miss the point. It doesn't matter how many people are blitzing missions, it matters that people who klnow what they are doing CAN blitz missions and make an income so good (in so much safety) that there is then zero economic incentive for a null player to also live in null and too much incentive to maintain high sec (*or FW or WH) alts.

No one carea about how much money you make or whether or not any of you ever go to null. No one is saying you can't make isk in null if you're willing to put up with some major headaches.

We want the restoration of the traditional "if you are willing to risk it, null is worth it" scheme of things to CCP has been (inadvertantly I hope) destroying with every expansion since Dominion. When I started playing, you couldn';t just X-up in an incursion channel or blitz SOE/Thukker/npc corp with industrial implants missions and make so much isk you never had to consider doing anything else.

As I type this I'm sitting in a Fleet in the Arikin Incursion making better isk with my machariel than I could if I had a whole system of Forskaen Hubs to myself and used the exact same Pirate Battleship........
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2294 - 2014-02-05 01:30:27 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Other than the small facts that get in the way.
Like Stoicfaux specifically said that 100m was an edge case and not the standard rate as it was reliant on a bunch of factors. And was done using a super bling ship.

And your 70m was actually 90-100m when done properly since you deliberately low balled it as much as possible, and were using a T2 fitted HAC instead. So if you had used the above super bling ship, your income while running would have been a lot higher. And if he had been using a T2 fitted HAC, his income would be lower.

And none of your 'Look at how we can play with individual isk/hr statistics to say what we want' has explained a thing about the gross income of a null player being approximately four times higher per capita pre ESS (So properly leveraged would now be five times higher) than the High Sec per capita income.
Null Earns more isk than high earns in combined isk & LP. Now with the ESS since Goons have taken all of 48 hours to work out how to use it safely, that is going to go up in Null.

So other than deliberately biased figures which don't count, nothing suggests High needs a Nerf in overall income levels.


Yeah you can't do basic math or convert things so why should I expect you to attempt to honestly argue.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=search&search=edge&postedby=stoicfaux&topic=What+would+happen+if+CCP+finally+nerfed+hisec%3f&forumID=258

He never says what you claim he did, he never says it was an edge case.

You still haven't looked at the data I provided either, I haven't run any statistics yet. I used a popular setup as you can see from the killboards of dumb goons like myself getting ganked in it. Ishtar/VNI ratting is a wide-spread popular way to do mid-range combat pve in nullsec, we are ~10,000 strong and we tell our newbees to do this kind of ratting so yes it is a representative sample. Also if you had actually looked at the sheet you'd see I am testing with an ESS.

I don't understand you, do you honestly believe that constantly spewing garbage makes people believe what you have to say or lends any credibility to you?

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2295 - 2014-02-05 01:30:49 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Mr Epeen wrote:

I mined 1.7b ice during your interdiction and I can assure you that my miner not once lost a ship.




Which interdiction?

There were several, some more effective than others but the first three took out 99% of miners. Also what did you use to mine that 1.7 bil in ice? Given that we were taking out mining battleships I find it hard the belive that you and only you were able to mine unmolested for the whole time we ran these. Given you current reputation in their thread to make stuff up Im calling BS on you.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#2296 - 2014-02-05 01:35:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It doesn't matter if a lot of people don't do it, it matters because the people from null can do it and are doing it.

…

We have told you we are doing this, we have shown you that we can do this and we have told you how to do this. Yet people still continue trying to say its not happening. We have infact provided you with more evidence than we provided to CCP when we were abusing FW to make tens of billions.


Show me how to blitz missions continuously without losing faction standings, I'll start paying more attention. To keep blitzing and maintaining 100M ISK/hr, you have to keep declining missions. The moment you have to start running non-blitzable missions, your time efficiency goes down. So you make 100M ISK in the first hour, then you have to run two non-blitzable missions because you're dangerously close to -2.0 with the faction and now your earning rate is down.

Then along comes La Nairz and shows us that he can sustain 60M ISK/hr in a heavy drone Ishtar. Sure, you'll complain that sentries lock you in place and you have to bail out if reds show up in system. But you're two jumps deep in intel-rich space: you know the reds are coming two jumps away. That's plenty of time to recall the sentries and head back to station (or simply cloak up). Using sentries and paying attention to intel (rather than allowing your heavy drones to slowboat across the battlefield while you're semi-afk) will add 25-50% to your income rate since you'll be shooting the next target in 4 seconds instead of 13 seconds.

There's no need to ship up to a battleship: you'll get the same DPS out of sentry drones in an Ishtar as you do from a Dominix. The only differences will be range and tracking due to the Domi's built-in OTL. You could switch to a Machariel of course, the extra range of artillery and the MJD combining to allow you stay aligned and have time to escape even if interceptors magically appear in your system out of nowhere. The 1200DPS of the Machariel will improve your ISK/hr by around 50%.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2297 - 2014-02-05 01:35:51 UTC
The more I think about it the best solution is redistributing income from higher end missions to lower end.

Take some of the reward from L4 and L3 then split it and give 1/4 of it to L5s, 1/4 of it to L2s and 2/4s of it to L1s. It'll aid newbie retention because it will be much easier for them to fund their activities and it will nerf mid-range highsec combat PVE income.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#2298 - 2014-02-05 01:37:39 UTC
Wow this thread is still going on.

Anything change yet? Nope? Alright I'll go back to work.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2299 - 2014-02-05 01:41:49 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It doesn't matter if a lot of people don't do it, it matters because the people from null can do it and are doing it.

…

We have told you we are doing this, we have shown you that we can do this and we have told you how to do this. Yet people still continue trying to say its not happening. We have infact provided you with more evidence than we provided to CCP when we were abusing FW to make tens of billions.


Show me how to blitz missions continuously without losing faction standings, I'll start paying more attention. To keep blitzing and maintaining 100M ISK/hr, you have to keep declining missions. The moment you have to start running non-blitzable missions, your time efficiency goes down. So you make 100M ISK in the first hour, then you have to run two non-blitzable missions because you're dangerously close to -2.0 with the faction and now your earning rate is down..



Wrong wrong and wrong.

1)My missioner bounces between SOE and Caldari Navy, this allows me at LEAST level 3 access with EVERY empire....and minimal up keep.
2) With social, negotiation, and dilpo V you can dump 4-5 missions in an hour and stay around +6 with an agent
3) Of course you run "non-blitzables" while the rate comes down from getting a recon and cargo deliver string (I've got the pair four times in a row)
Blockade, 15 minutes 9200 LP 20mil bounty
Extravaganza 30 minute 9200LP 20 bounty
WC (not sure if you would call it a blitz) but it takes all of 10 minutes to blast away the last pocket if you have the hacker card and that is 10mil bounties and 9200 LP.

Even "not bliztzing" you are still pushing anomaly income.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2300 - 2014-02-05 01:44:24 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
The more I think about it the best solution is redistributing income from higher end missions to lower end.

Take some of the reward from L4 and L3 then split it and give 1/4 of it to L5s, 1/4 of it to L2s and 2/4s of it to L1s. It'll aid newbie retention because it will be much easier for them to fund their activities and it will nerf mid-range highsec combat PVE income.

Or just do said boost to Lvl 2's & 1's which is needed, while not nerfing the lvl 3's & 4's that isn't needed. You don't have to nerf lvl 4's to boost lvl 1's. High Sec is not a major isk faucet.