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Incursions and ship balancing.

Author
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#41 - 2014-02-04 06:21:43 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?



Not everything can be the best in every situation. Incursiosn are an elitist community and they want you to use ONLY what is the BEST.

Missiles are good in other scenarios, just not incursions.


I would like you to list an example where missiles are better. Challenge: list three examples.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#42 - 2014-02-04 06:23:21 UTC
Tippia wrote:
May Zhu wrote:
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.

Selectable damage at extreme distances and (still selectable) fucktons of damage at short-to-medium range.



So Caldari are sniper cowards, only good for distance blapping, and even then outperformed by sentry drones.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#43 - 2014-02-04 06:28:29 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.



I have trained logi 5, I also have trained mach and vindicator now including sentry drone (only took 27 days for sentry.... bleh). I miss my missiles damnit! They LOOK COOL now all twisting and twirling and ****, and I'm a visual artist who creates computer graphics for a living. I care about how a game looks. See my "Golem is now ruined thread".

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#44 - 2014-02-04 06:29:51 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
May Zhu wrote:
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.

Selectable damage at extreme distances and (still selectable) fucktons of damage at short-to-medium range.



So Caldari are sniper cowards, only good for distance blapping, and even then outperformed by sentry drones.


Rattlesnake.

Cowardly snipe with both missiles and sentries. It's what I do.

Mr Epeen Cool
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#45 - 2014-02-04 07:41:29 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.



I have trained logi 5, I also have trained mach and vindicator now including sentry drone (only took 27 days for sentry.... bleh). I miss my missiles damnit! They LOOK COOL now all twisting and twirling and ****, and I'm a visual artist who creates computer graphics for a living. I care about how a game looks. See my "Golem is now ruined thread".


So if we all petitioned CCP to stop using smokeless cordite on projectiles and we had a nice old broadside smoke report, you'd be happy, because thats far more awesome than missiles.

And if CCP then proceeded to add a nice blue electric zappy smoke report to hybrids, then you'd never even think about your silly missile chucker again ?
Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-02-04 09:32:19 UTC
This is no different to all the "I havent trained drones and I am jealous so nerf them please" threads.

Some serious advice if you want to run incursions (or any specialised area in EVE, supers, caps whatever) and have a typical mishmash do everything main character:

1) Get some ISK
2) Go to the character bazaar
3) Buy a character with the optimal training for what you want to do

Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#47 - 2014-02-04 11:12:00 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:

I get that some ships perform better then others, fine. But I invested a lot of time in missile skills and now I have to invest MORE time in hybrids to get the same effect. Why can't missiles be better balanced so EVERY race can "contest" a site. It's just a weak argument because incursion fleets really have three choices for DPS:

Machariel
Vindi
Nightmare.

Thats it, everything else is second rate.


The problem is travel time. Even in regular missions paper dps doesn't equal actual dps. You launch missiles on ships that are already down due to flight time. In incursions that would happen a lot, so you wouldn't do much dps cause the object you fired on wouldn't be there anymore.

No way around the problem really.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#48 - 2014-02-04 14:28:39 UTC
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.


So what exactly is stopping you from running your own fleets then? Oh wait, you don't have any friends. I got ya.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2014-02-04 16:13:21 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
So Caldari are sniper cowards, only good for distance blapping, and even then outperformed by sentry drones.

Have you seen their ship bonuses lately ever? And no, they're not really outperformed by sentires since, not only are sentries shorter-ranged, their damage selection is limited by range too whereas missiles offer the same damage selection across nearly the entire grid.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
#50 - 2014-02-04 18:21:44 UTC
Cyndrogen wrote:
I would like you to list an example where missiles are better. Challenge: list three examples.


- 100% selectable damage types, with the restriction of a kin bonus on many hulls(however not on BS)
- not restricted by transversal/tracking and hit quality/falloff
- higher dps at range by long range missiles, compared to long range turrets

Missile ships are actually very good in Incursions(the BS at least), since the combine a huge range with high dps at this range and no tracking restrictions to apply that same dps at closer range. However the problem is that most of your missile dps is lost in contests, because of flight time(exception would be pure missile based fleets like HAM tengus that can be fairly good at closer range with proper focus fire, seen it first hand in contests). Given that where you need the most snipers(HQ fleets) you also have the most contests, makes it simply a lot less attractive.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread

ashley Eoner
#51 - 2014-02-04 19:51:09 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?

Actually missiles can work quite fine in incursions. The problem is you can't be a lazy moron with missiles like you can with a turret. You actually have to pay attention and switch targets at the right time so as to not waste dps. Alas in contests cruise missiles can be troublesome to manage as targets explode at an unpredictable rate and torpedos only apply full dps on towers. As a result the majority of communities dislike missile users.


Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:

I get that some ships perform better then others, fine. But I invested a lot of time in missile skills and now I have to invest MORE time in hybrids to get the same effect. Why can't missiles be better balanced so EVERY race can "contest" a site. It's just a weak argument because incursion fleets really have three choices for DPS:

Machariel
Vindi
Nightmare.

Thats it, everything else is second rate.


The problem is travel time. Even in regular missions paper dps doesn't equal actual dps. You launch missiles on ships that are already down due to flight time. In incursions that would happen a lot, so you wouldn't do much dps cause the object you fired on wouldn't be there anymore.

No way around the problem really.
There is an easy way around the problem. It's called "PAYING ATTENTION" and switching targets properly.
Mister Tuggles
Heretic Army
Sedition.
#52 - 2014-02-04 22:14:54 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?



Not everything can be the best in every situation. Incursiosn are an elitist community and they want you to use ONLY what is the BEST.

Missiles are good in other scenarios, just not incursions.



I am always amused when people throw the term "elitist" around in video games. Sorry some people don't want you video game welfare rats bringing your t1 bs to a fleet full of pirate bs with officer fits. People work hard for the best equipment. You can put in the time with vanilla fleets and work your way up.
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#53 - 2014-02-06 00:33:51 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Incindir Mauser wrote:

Christ.

I remember back in the day before the neckbeards took over any newbie in a T2 tanked Hurricane could get in a fleet and shoot Sansha.

Now it's all... "Pimp that ride you worthless scrub..."

If you want to make money running Incursions, train Logi and you'll never have to worry about if your overpriced BS hull is good enough to meet the high expectations of the Incursion grognards.



I have trained logi 5, I also have trained mach and vindicator now including sentry drone (only took 27 days for sentry.... bleh). I miss my missiles damnit! They LOOK COOL now all twisting and twirling and ****, and I'm a visual artist who creates computer graphics for a living. I care about how a game looks. See my "Golem is now ruined thread".


So if we all petitioned CCP to stop using smokeless cordite on projectiles and we had a nice old broadside smoke report, you'd be happy, because thats far more awesome than missiles.

And if CCP then proceeded to add a nice blue electric zappy smoke report to hybrids, then you'd never even think about your silly missile chucker again ?


Show me and I might not.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#54 - 2014-02-06 00:36:28 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?



Not everything can be the best in every situation. Incursiosn are an elitist community and they want you to use ONLY what is the BEST.

Missiles are good in other scenarios, just not incursions.


I don't know how you can be elitist when shooting red + signs but ok.
Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#55 - 2014-02-06 00:36:57 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?

Actually missiles can work quite fine in incursions. The problem is you can't be a lazy moron with missiles like you can with a turret. You actually have to pay attention and switch targets at the right time so as to not waste dps. Alas in contests cruise missiles can be troublesome to manage as targets explode at an unpredictable rate and torpedos only apply full dps on towers. As a result the majority of communities dislike missile users.


Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:

I get that some ships perform better then others, fine. But I invested a lot of time in missile skills and now I have to invest MORE time in hybrids to get the same effect. Why can't missiles be better balanced so EVERY race can "contest" a site. It's just a weak argument because incursion fleets really have three choices for DPS:

Machariel
Vindi
Nightmare.

Thats it, everything else is second rate.


The problem is travel time. Even in regular missions paper dps doesn't equal actual dps. You launch missiles on ships that are already down due to flight time. In incursions that would happen a lot, so you wouldn't do much dps cause the object you fired on wouldn't be there anymore.

No way around the problem really.
There is an easy way around the problem. It's called "PAYING ATTENTION" and switching targets properly.



You really don't run incursions do you? It's not a "PAY ATTENTION" problem, I could try to explain it to you but you probably would not understand.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#56 - 2014-02-06 00:38:18 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Tippia wrote:
May Zhu wrote:
can anybody actually name one of these supposed things that missiles do equally or better than the mach's autocannons, nightmares pulses, or vindi's blasters can do? because i can't immediately think of one.

Selectable damage at extreme distances and (still selectable) fucktons of damage at short-to-medium range.



So Caldari are sniper cowards, only good for distance blapping, and even then outperformed by sentry drones.


Rattlesnake.

Cowardly snipe with both missiles and sentries. It's what I do.

Mr Epeen Cool


I'm a fan of snakes, but I can't remember ever seeing one in an incursion. Or an SNI, etc etc.

I see Kronos though.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

ashley Eoner
#57 - 2014-02-06 00:58:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Cyndrogen wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:
Lets talk missiles.

Minmatar ships, Amarr ships and Gallente ships are typically useful in incursions I have seen many fleets with Nightmares, Machariels, Vindicators, Rokh etc.

Occasionally a raven shows up but even if they make it into fleet they are likely to be picked dead last..

Why are missiles punished to the point where they are not good at all?

If missiles are unable to deal alpha damage and take longer to hit due to flight time, their overall DPS should be GREATER not less then turrets?

Is it just me or does it seem like missiles are completely useless in incursions?

Actually missiles can work quite fine in incursions. The problem is you can't be a lazy moron with missiles like you can with a turret. You actually have to pay attention and switch targets at the right time so as to not waste dps. Alas in contests cruise missiles can be troublesome to manage as targets explode at an unpredictable rate and torpedos only apply full dps on towers. As a result the majority of communities dislike missile users.


Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Cyndrogen wrote:

I get that some ships perform better then others, fine. But I invested a lot of time in missile skills and now I have to invest MORE time in hybrids to get the same effect. Why can't missiles be better balanced so EVERY race can "contest" a site. It's just a weak argument because incursion fleets really have three choices for DPS:

Machariel
Vindi
Nightmare.

Thats it, everything else is second rate.


The problem is travel time. Even in regular missions paper dps doesn't equal actual dps. You launch missiles on ships that are already down due to flight time. In incursions that would happen a lot, so you wouldn't do much dps cause the object you fired on wouldn't be there anymore.

No way around the problem really.
There is an easy way around the problem. It's called "PAYING ATTENTION" and switching targets properly.



You really don't run incursions do you? It's not a "PAY ATTENTION" problem, I could try to explain it to you but you probably would not understand.
I have run with a wide variety of incursion groups in a variety of ships/roles. I also used to multibox solo incursions with my own VG fleet. I know the ins and outs of incursions. Nothing I said was false and as such you've resorted to name calling.

The only delay that matters is that first shot. From that point on the delay doesn't matter when played properly.
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#58 - 2014-02-06 05:37:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Your Dad Naked
Not to bud in Ashley, but you're the one who was a bit snide to begin with. Don't expect a response that doesn't escalate at that point,
ashley Eoner
#59 - 2014-02-07 05:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Your Dad Naked wrote:
Not to bud in Ashley, but you're the one who was a bit snide to begin with. Don't expect a response that doesn't escalate at that point,

Snide? I stated the truth. You don't really have to pay attention in an HQ incursion while piloting most of the turreted ships. ONly if you're assigned a job does it become something that requires real attention. Set your shield warning to 99%, cap warning to a bit under your stable spot and/or pay slight attention to the overview. Otherwise it's a matter of targeting in the right order at the start of a spawn and hitting f1 occasionally till the next spawn.

With missiles you have to watch everything PLUS distance to target and damage rate. Switching targets properly takes careful attention and that's not something everyone running incursion fleets are willing to do. There's also the sad fact that not everyone playing this game can be the sharpest tack in the box. I don't really blame the public fleets for not wanting to bring missiles along. It's pretty obvious that contest fleets wouldn't want to bring missiles along either.


EDIT : Just in case anyone wonders. Yes the poster didn't actually directly call me a name. THe poster DID imply I was too stupid to understand a simple concept such as incursion running though.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#60 - 2014-02-07 06:28:48 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:

Snide? I stated the truth. You don't really have to pay attention in an HQ incursion while piloting most of the turreted ships. ONly if you're assigned a job does it become something that requires real attention. Set your shield warning to 99%, cap warning to a bit under your stable spot and/or pay slight attention to the overview. Otherwise it's a matter of targeting in the right order at the start of a spawn and hitting f1 occasionally till the next spawn.

Unless you over-tank your ships in which case you are costing not just yourself but the entire fleet income, if you don't pay attention and broadcast before you start taking damage, you will quite possibly be dead before logi can lock you. A properly tanked incursion ship (Of any sort, be it T1, T2 or Pirate BS) needs you to be fully aware of your environment. If you are lazy and only broadcast after you start taking damage, that's how you end up in hull or a pod.