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About sentry drones, control range and engage range (not F&I)

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Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#81 - 2014-02-01 21:21:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
Quote:
Go back to the start and actually read this time around.


I have read every post in this thread before posting. Mind you, that was not a happy exercise (especially due to your posts) but I only have my masochism to blame anyway.

You still don't even understand why DCR is needed. It has been pointed to you about 10 times already, and you keep on rambling about drone range. FFS, is it that difficult to understand? Go back to the start and actually read this time around.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#82 - 2014-02-01 21:25:35 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Quote:
Go back to the start and actually read this time around.


I have read every post in this thread before posting. Mind you, that was not a happy exercise (especially due to your posts) but I only have my masochism to blame anyway.

You still don't even understand why DCR is needed. It has been pointed to you about 10 times already, and you keep on rambling about drone range. FFS, is it that difficult to understand? Go back to the start and actually read this time around.

Ok. Explain my suggestion then, and explain why it's a bad idea.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2014-02-01 21:27:05 UTC
Sentries without DCR would be utterly ******* broken. That's why. End of.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#84 - 2014-02-01 21:31:58 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Ok. Explain my suggestion then, and explain why it's a bad idea.

Because it massively unbalances damage projection and removes one of the big selling points of drones.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#85 - 2014-02-01 21:37:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sentries without DCR would be utterly ******* broken. That's why. End of.

Short anwer. This.

Quote:
Ok. Explain my suggestion then, and explain why it's a bad idea.

Your suggestion is that drones should hit targets that are inside their weapon range (optimal+falloff) irregardless of the distance between the ship and the target. That effectively means you can put your ship behind your drones, and have their weapon range be the actual damage projection limit.

If you don't understand what that does to damage projection for your ship (when compared to other weapon platforms), I don't think you will ever understand more subtle points (like using weapon firing range as an arbitrary rule for drone targeting while drones still hit further than their optimal+falloff, drone assist range tanking buffs, etc) about why your idea is terrible, in the wrong forum and worthy of ridicule.

But hey, its a drone idea and drones have not been revamped for ages. Lets do it, and call it a drone overhole...
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#86 - 2014-02-01 21:39:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:

Mr Epeen wrote:
Without getting into the pedantic argument that has taken over as usual when Tipps sets his mind to being feisty, I'd just like to see an expansion dedicated to revamping drones to work like they should.
Sure. The question is just what this “should” looks like…


Proper AI
Proper controls
Proper UI

I'd suggest more, but I think those three most can agree on. Well, except for you-know-who.

Mr Epeen Cool
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#87 - 2014-02-01 22:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Erufen Rito
Bertrand Butler wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Sentries without DCR would be utterly ******* broken. That's why. End of.

Short anwer. This.

Quote:
Ok. Explain my suggestion then, and explain why it's a bad idea.

Your suggestion is that drones should hit targets that are inside their weapon range (optimal+falloff) irregardless of the distance between the ship and the target. That effectively means you can put your ship behind your drones, and have their weapon range be the actual damage projection limit.

If you don't understand what that does to damage projection for your ship (when compared to other weapon platforms), I don't think you will ever understand more subtle points (like using weapon firing range as an arbitrary rule for drone targeting while drones still hit further than their optimal+falloff, drone assist range tanking buffs, etc) about why your idea is terrible, in the wrong forum and worthy of ridicule.

But hey, its a drone idea and drones have not been revamped for ages. Lets do it, and call it a drone overhole...

You are correct in the explanation of the concept. I still don't see how it affects drones. I can see how it affects sentries though.

Last I checked, sniping maelstroms are very viable, and have a comparable damage projection.

Also, that's cute.

Edit: No DCR? when the **** did I ever suggest such a stupid thing?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2014-02-01 22:37:44 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
You are correct in the explanation of the concept. I still don't see how it affects drones. I can see how it affects sentries though.
It affects drones the same way it affects sentries, largely because… you know… sentries are drones.

Quote:
No DCR? when the **** did I ever suggest such a stupid thing?
In the OP (along with the lie that this is not an F&I thread), as clarified here: “I know, I'm proposing a change to it.”

…and before you even try to squirm out of it by claiming that “changing it” means keeping DCR, no, it does not. By virtue of changing it completely different, you have indeed removed DCR and the limitation it is intended to provide and instead introduced something else.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#89 - 2014-02-01 22:45:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
You are correct in the explanation of the concept. I still don't see how it affects drones. I can see how it affects sentries though.
It affects drones the same way it affects sentries, largely because… you know… sentries are drones.

Quote:
No DCR? when the **** did I ever suggest such a stupid thing?
In the OP (along with the lie that this is not an F&I thread), as clarified here: “I know, I'm proposing a change to it.”

…and before you even try to squirm out of it by claiming that “changing it” means keeping DCR, no, it does not. By virtue of changing it completely different, you have indeed removed DCR and the limitation it is intended to provide and instead introduced something else.

If you have a problem with this being a F&I topic, you can move it. I don't object to it at all.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#90 - 2014-02-01 22:49:35 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
If you have a problem with this being a F&I topic, you can move it. I don't object to it at all.

I have a problem with your claim that it's not an F&I thread (it's even in the title), when it is so very clearly an F&I thread, only you apparently couldn't be arsed to post in the right place from the very beginning…
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#91 - 2014-02-01 22:50:30 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
If you have a problem with this being a F&I topic, you can move it. I don't object to it at all.

I have a problem with your claim that it's not an F&I thread (it's even in the title), when it is so very clearly an F&I thread, only you apparently couldn't be arsed to post in the right place from the very beginning…
Again, if you have a problem, move it. (As in, do something about it).

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#92 - 2014-02-01 22:54:50 UTC
Tippia wrote:

I have a problem


Now that I can agree with.

Mr Epeen Cool
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#93 - 2014-02-01 22:55:22 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Tippia wrote:

I have a problem


Now that I can agree with.

Mr Epeen Cool

Now let's not pour lime and rub salt on the wound.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#94 - 2014-02-01 23:29:37 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Ok. Explain my suggestion then, and explain why it's a bad idea.

Because it massively unbalances damage projection and removes one of the big selling points of drones.

How does it remove anything.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#95 - 2014-02-01 23:47:13 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
How does it remove anything.

You're asking them to reduce the range at which you can control your drones — right out of the box, no modules or skills or anything added — from hundreds of kilometers to tens of kilometers. Do you need help counting how many kilometers are being removed by doing so?
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#96 - 2014-02-01 23:55:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
How does it remove anything.

You're asking them to reduce the range at which you can control your drones — right out of the box, no modules or skills or anything added — from hundreds of kilometers to tens of kilometers. Do you need help counting how many kilometers are being removed by doing so?

Wow, not sure where you even got that from. So please, do explain and help me count. I'll lend you my fingers for that as well.
Where the hell did you find a post of mine asking to reduce the range at which you can control drones?

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#97 - 2014-02-02 00:09:47 UTC
Erufen Rito wrote:
Where the hell did you find a post of mine asking to reduce the range at which you can control drones?

Here, here, here, and in pretty much any post you made that was based on the incorrect assumption that sentries are somehow different from other drones. Your entire complaint can be boiled down to your initial question of why drone control range was the range between you and your target rather than you and your drones.

Again, you might not understand that this is indeed what you're asking for, but that's because you don't get the mechanics, which is why everyone has been trying to explain them to you.
Erufen Rito
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#98 - 2014-02-02 00:21:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Erufen Rito wrote:
Where the hell did you find a post of mine asking to reduce the range at which you can control drones?

Here, here, here, and in pretty much any post you made that was based on the incorrect assumption that sentries are somehow different from other drones. Your entire complaint can be boiled down to your initial question of why drone control range was the range between you and your target rather than you and your drones.

Again, you might not understand that this is indeed what you're asking for, but that's because you don't get the mechanics, which is why everyone has been trying to explain them to you.

You've proven yet again your failure to understand the concept I'm suggesting. You have also failed to show how my concept reduces the DCR. You have also failed to prove a reasonable argument as to why it's a nerf to drones, and you have failed to realize that sentries are, in fact, different than the rest of the drones.

I'd encourage you to try again, but you are just too far gone for me to care. Keep your delusion up. Maybe it will click with some time.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#99 - 2014-02-02 00:24:42 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Ok, so, just recapping the situation as I understand it: http://i.imgur.com/3i6tpJg.png

You are wondering why, in this situation, your drones cannot shoot the target when the target is outside your drone control range, despite the target being in your drones range.

Mechanically, this would be broken. Like OP broken so bad that nobody else would fly any snipers that are not Ishtars or Dominixes. Reason being, as the distances are labeled in my diagram, a ship sniping with sentry drones would come out to an effective range of Dt = Ddc + Ddw. This is a problem because there are range-enhancing mechanics for both of the component ranges of this total range.

More simply put, a Dominix with Garde IIs has would have the following stats:

  • 750 DPS using 3 DDAs, from a range of:
  • 171 km away: 132 km drone control range after 3x Drone Link Augmentor II, and 58 km Garde II optimal 3x scripted Omnidirectional Tracking Link II (completely discarding falloff range)
  • 0.0495 rad/s tracking for the drones
  • 402 CPU and 10 PG fitting costs, across 9 slots


Compare this to the quintessential sniping ship, the Rokh. When firing at that sort of range, it can only do:

  • 406 DPS using 3 MFSs, from a range of:
  • 152 km away, using 3x range scripted Tracking Computer IIs
  • 0.0207 rad/s tracking, using 2x tracking scripted Tracking Computer IIs
  • 709 CPU and 1664 PG fitting costs, across 16 slots


All other battleships fall even shorter. That is not what "balance" looks like.

If you would like to rationalize why drones can't do this, you can imagine that your ship needs to "paint" a target for the drones to hit, and it cannot paint targets further than your drone control range. You can even rename "drone control range" to "drone target paint range" if that helps. The name "drone control range" is misleading anyway, since it is not the "signal" range of your ship, but rather a cap on the range from you to your drone's targets.

This is the correct answer to the OP. The other arguments - essentially "but that's how it is" - are invalid as they fail to accurately address the concerns in the OP.

The OP brings up a good point about the logic of it all. It is indeed illogical and "realistically" his way of seeing things makes the most sense. Game balance has always taken precedence however as it should be. Some may argue that hence makes this the logical way but I won't start arguing semantics now.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#100 - 2014-02-02 00:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Erufen Rito wrote:
You've proven yet again your failure to understand the concept I'm suggesting.
Incorrect. I understand it fine, including the side-effects that you are unaware of because you're not familiar enough with the mechanics.

Quote:
You have also failed to show how my concept reduces the DCR.
That's because it was not something I was suggesting. That's just you confusing the ranges involved again because you're not familiar enough with the mechanics.

I said that your suggestion reduces the range at which you can control your drones. I have repeatedly shown how, often aided by your own illustrations. Again: you want DCR to be the range between you and your drone(s) rather than you and your target. This would obviously reduce the range at which you can control your drones from several hundred km to some tens of km. Or well… it's obvious to anyone who's familiar with the mechanics.

I've also offered this as your escape-route: to simply admit that you were confused with the term itself and that, if you could come up with a better term, it might be an idea to suggest that it be renamed. Your attempt to answer this very first question instead became the first instance of you demonstrating that you weren't all that familiar with the terminology or the mechanics.

Quote:
You have also failed to prove a reasonable argument as to why it's a nerf to drones
Incorrect. You are just not familiar enough with the mechanics to understand the argument (as demonstrated by your thinking I was talking about a reduction of the DCR).

Quote:
you have failed to realize that sentries are, in fact, different than the rest of the drones.
Incorrect. The only difference between sentries and other drones is the skills that provide them with bonuses. You think they're different because you're not familiar enough with the mechanics.