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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1781 - 2014-02-01 15:12:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I see you ignored the first part where I stated what the norm is.

And I see you ignored the part where you stated 180 mil is easily doable.


It is.

But its not the norm.

If it's easily achievable as you say, why wouldn't I be able to use your own figure to measure results against? Is 180 not sustainable?

By the way, your "norm" of 100 - 120 is still way inflated. I'll run some numbers this week to see how actual figures fare against these numbers.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1782 - 2014-02-01 15:12:40 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Please tell us what gives half a billion isk an hour in null.


Passive income is better than active income. A single Titan is worth upwards of 30b+ in profits, and only takes 40 days to produce.

HTFU
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1783 - 2014-02-01 15:14:59 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Please tell us what gives half a billion isk an hour in null.


Passive income is better than active income. A single Titan is worth upwards of 30b+ in profits, and only takes 40 days to produce.

HTFU


Because every line member can build these and sell them to everyone...
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1784 - 2014-02-01 15:19:07 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Please tell us what gives half a billion isk an hour in null.


Passive income is better than active income. A single Titan is worth upwards of 30b+ in profits, and only takes 40 days to produce.

HTFU


Because every line member can build these and sell them to everyone...



So because you can't do it, it means it can't be done. Again, HTFU.

This game isn't designed to feed you Titans on a golden platter.

You want high income? Train up, suck it up, and get involved. AKA stop whining.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1785 - 2014-02-01 15:20:29 UTC
This was somewhat productive earlier. I can see now that it's just going to go to hell again. Roll

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1786 - 2014-02-01 15:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I see you ignored the first part where I stated what the norm is.

And I see you ignored the part where you stated 180 mil is easily doable.


It is.

But its not the norm.

If it's easily achievable as you say, why wouldn't I be able to use your own figure to measure results against? Is 180 not sustainable?

By the way, your "norm" of 100 - 120 is still way inflated. I'll run some numbers this week to see how actual figures fare against these numbers.


No you wont. Your bias will kick in and you will half heartedly try at best and then bounce around saying look I told you ect and then ignore people pointing out why you did so badly. Its the same thing we faced when we pointed out both the FW and pre nerf incursion income levels.

If null sec offers more income than high then why are most of null players earning isk in high sec? Why did just about all of the bots move to high sec to run missions which need more complicated bot programes?

Dont you think the people with a reputation for manipulating every source of income to the highest levels possible no matter the risk or effort eould be in their own sov null space if it was better rater than grinding missions in high sec?

The fix is so easy too, just stop mission blitzing. Boom, anoms are back in and the casual gamer everyone uses to stop any nerfs wont even notice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1787 - 2014-02-01 15:25:32 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I see you ignored the first part where I stated what the norm is.

And I see you ignored the part where you stated 180 mil is easily doable.


Merely swapping which corp's LP Kimmi was using increased her isk/hr by 28%. And as has been discussed, she certainly has room for improvement.

Specifically, her Security Connections skill, which her initial post did not mention was being taken into account.


I posted my EveBoard profile earlier in the thread.

I've also estimated roughly how much more I would have made doing SOE with SC V. Though I have not posted it. Posting it now:

35546 LP * 1.5 (SC V) * 2301 (ISK/LP) = 122,852,691

(67,865,081 + 122,852,691)/4 = 47,679,443 ISK/hr

ED: The LP is based on an estimate of earned LP * 1.5 for the SC V. This may not be entirely accurate but is the best I can do without training the skill up to V and going about this again to generate additional data. This is not outside the realm of feasibility but not at this time.


48 mil/hr? That's looking a bit better, I knew there was something deeply wrong with that first figure.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1788 - 2014-02-01 15:30:05 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
baltec1 wrote:
No you wont. Your bias will kick in and you will half heartedly try at best and then bounce around saying look I told you ect and then ignore people pointing out why you did so badly. Its the same thing we faced when we pointed out both the FW and pre nerf incursion income levels.

If null sec offers more income than high then why are most of null players earning isk in high sec? Why did just about all of the bots move to high sec to run missions which need more complicated bot programes?

Dont you think the people with a reputation for manipulating every source of income to the highest levels possible no matter the risk or effort eould be in their own sov null space if it was better rater than grinding missions in high sec?

The fix is so easy too, just stop mission blitzing. Boom, anoms are back in and the casual gamer everyone uses to stop any nerfs wont even notice.

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.

Your comment on curbing or eliminating blitzing I actually agree with. But that's my personal opinion. I don't think it was CCP's intent to allow these missions to be blitzed through. I could be wrong, though. In any case, nerfing blitz missioning sounds a hell of a lot more reasonable than blanket-nerfing hi sec.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1789 - 2014-02-01 15:32:59 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


More along the lines of that, because your position is already drawn and you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, the veracity of any results you may post is highly suspect.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1790 - 2014-02-01 15:39:30 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
MatrixSkye wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


We have years of numbers behind us. We have seen the slow progress of null income lowering while high sec income has grown. When even the bots abandon null you know there is a problem. Any attempt by yourself will of course be biased because you are anti any nerf to highsec. Unlike you we do care about overall balance of this game. We have demanded nerfs even though they would massivly hurt us.

We dont want blanket nerfs, they do far far more harm than good. Focused nerfs are what is needed along with buffs to fix several inbalances.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1791 - 2014-02-01 15:42:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
I see you ignored the first part where I stated what the norm is.

And I see you ignored the part where you stated 180 mil is easily doable.


Merely swapping which corp's LP Kimmi was using increased her isk/hr by 28%. And as has been discussed, she certainly has room for improvement.

Specifically, her Security Connections skill, which her initial post did not mention was being taken into account.


I posted my EveBoard profile earlier in the thread.

I've also estimated roughly how much more I would have made doing SOE with SC V. Though I have not posted it. Posting it now:

35546 LP * 1.5 (SC V) * 2301 (ISK/LP) = 122,852,691

(67,865,081 + 122,852,691)/4 = 47,679,443 ISK/hr

ED: The LP is based on an estimate of earned LP * 1.5 for the SC V. This may not be entirely accurate but is the best I can do without training the skill up to V and going about this again to generate additional data. This is not outside the realm of feasibility but not at this time.


48 mil/hr? That's looking a bit better, I knew there was something deeply wrong with that first figure.


Indeed but still not close enough to 90m/hr.

Consider this-

I averaged 3.5 missions/hr (14/4)
I averaged 13,622,698 ISK/mission at the SOE and SC V rates above (190,717,772/14).

Let's account for my deficiency in fit and practice, as you mentioned previously, and say I got better and was able to average 4 missions/hr

13,622,698 * 4 = 54,490,792 ISK/hr

Still not anywhere near 90m per hour. Cry

The numbers just aren't there man.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1792 - 2014-02-01 15:43:13 UTC
considering highsec was just nerfed relative to nullsec, we can safely conclude this thread is a giant troll

nothing will ever satisfy them

and it's literally the same two people for 90 pages.

THE SAME TWO PEOPLE!!!

baltec and kaarous. hahahahahhahha
Xira Arienne
Doomheim
#1793 - 2014-02-01 15:45:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


More along the lines of that, because your position is already drawn and you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, the veracity of any results you may post is highly suspect.



Kimmi has provided us with some hard data to work on, at the very least it's giving us a ballpark figure to work with here. Now if you think the numbers are suspect, then I heartily recommend that you indulge in some research of your own and post your results. However, this kind of research is never going to pass the scientific standard of double-blind randomised testing and the like, since we're Eve players and as such well used to the fact that paranoia is a survival trait.

However, that being said, I do know of at least one group who have access to all the data they need: CCP. The Devs can access exactly what Highsec missioners make, both short term and over a sustained period of time, as well as exactly how many players/toons are capable of the high end of ISK/hour earnings. So regardless of the opinions we might hold here on the forums, the Devs know the hard facts and can draw their conclusions and make nerfs, buffs or keep things as they are, and are in the best possible position to make an informed decision.

Kimmi, it's been said before, but thanks for the work on gathering the first piece of hard data to test a hypothesis that I've seen on these forums. It's nice to see that not everyone thinks that the person who can flame the hardest, or troll the loudest, will win an argument. Keep up the good work.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1794 - 2014-02-01 15:47:12 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
considering highsec was just nerfed relative to nullsec, we can safely conclude this thread is a giant troll

nothing will ever satisfy them

and it's literally the same two people for 90 pages.

THE SAME TWO PEOPLE!!!

baltec and kaarous. hahahahahhahha


What nerf?
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1795 - 2014-02-01 15:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
considering highsec was just nerfed relative to nullsec, we can safely conclude this thread is a giant troll

nothing will ever satisfy them

and it's literally the same two people for 90 pages.

THE SAME TWO PEOPLE!!!

baltec and kaarous. hahahahahhahha


What nerf?


Drone sites in nullsec will drop SoE ship tokens in the next patch.

Considering the vast majority of SoE LP is produced in highsec, its a net buff for nullsec and a net nerf for highsec.

CCP wants these ships to be much cheaper within the market.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#1796 - 2014-02-01 15:50:01 UTC
Xira Arienne wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


More along the lines of that, because your position is already drawn and you have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, the veracity of any results you may post is highly suspect.



Kimmi has provided us with some hard data to work on, at the very least it's giving us a ballpark figure to work with here. Now if you think the numbers are suspect, then I heartily recommend that you indulge in some research of your own and post your results. However, this kind of research is never going to pass the scientific standard of double-blind randomised testing and the like, since we're Eve players and as such well used to the fact that paranoia is a survival trait.

However, that being said, I do know of at least one group who have access to all the data they need: CCP. The Devs can access exactly what Highsec missioners make, both short term and over a sustained period of time, as well as exactly how many players/toons are capable of the high end of ISK/hour earnings. So regardless of the opinions we might hold here on the forums, the Devs know the hard facts and can draw their conclusions and make nerfs, buffs or keep things as they are, and are in the best possible position to make an informed decision.

Kimmi, it's been said before, but thanks for the work on gathering the first piece of hard data to test a hypothesis that I've seen on these forums. It's nice to see that not everyone thinks that the person who can flame the hardest, or troll the loudest, will win an argument. Keep up the good work.


Thank you.

I'm thinking I need to do another 4 hour tour under the exact same conditions to establish a controlled setting. We can estimate differences based on data available from other sources. It's quite possible I just happened to have a run of really bad luck with the missions I was offered.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1797 - 2014-02-01 15:53:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
MatrixSkye wrote:

I see. So if I meet your number then all is good. If I don't, it's because I'm biased. Since we have already predetermined the outcome, no need to try.


We have years of numbers behind us. We have seen the slow progress of null income lowering while high sec income has grown. When even the bots abandon null you know there is a problem. Any attempt by yourself will of course be biased because you are anti any nerf to highsec. Unlike you we do care about overall balance of this game. We have demanded nerfs even though they would massivly hurt us.

I don't think you do have the numbers. You say you do. But after 90 pages there is nothing to show for other than saying that I don't have the numbers. And the "we" part is actually rather small, as far as I can tell. Yes it is true that you, Jenn, Kaarous, La Nariz, Tippia, et al have been calling for nerfs to hi sec for quite some time now. But I'm not so sure that constitutes a large "we".

The problem with you argument is that you throw numbers such as "120/hr" or "180mil/hr", eye browses are raised, questions are asked, but no data is ever produced. Instead we're left to testing the validity of these numbers. And if these numbers aren't produced, then the data is wrong or the tester is incompetent or biased. In essence, we're left with claims that become un-provable. And we are forced to accept this as data itself. This isn't how it's supposed to be.

Let's forget that you said 180mil/hr is easily achievable with SEO. Let's instead work with 100 - 120 mil. You say that's the norm. Can you show right here right now the data supporting that 100 - 120 is indeed the norm? Can you show your missioning numbers? No more bullshit. No more "we have the numbers". Do you ACTUALLY HAVE the numbers to prove the claim that the norm is 100 - 120 million per hour?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1798 - 2014-02-01 15:54:29 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
considering highsec was just nerfed relative to nullsec, we can safely conclude this thread is a giant troll

nothing will ever satisfy them

and it's literally the same two people for 90 pages.

THE SAME TWO PEOPLE!!!

baltec and kaarous. hahahahahhahha


What nerf?


Drone sites in nullsec will drop SoE ship tokens in the next patch.

Considering the vast majority of SoE LP is produced in highsec, its a net buff for nullsec and a net nerf for highsec.

CCP wants these ships to be much cheaper within the market.


This merely puts their method of being obtained on par with that of the rest of the pirate ships.

Except that the LP for the pirate ships can't really be earned in highsec. Still a net gain for highsec with the Sisters of Eve, compared to a few months ago.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1799 - 2014-02-01 15:55:58 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

Drone sites in nullsec will drop SoE ship tokens in the next patch.

Considering the vast majority of SoE LP is produced in highsec, its a net buff for nullsec and a net nerf for highsec.

CCP wants these ships to be much cheaper within the market.


Dronelands, not all of null. That area of space has been the most terrible lart of null for years. I also doubt prices will drop by much,PL are far too smart to allow that to happen.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1800 - 2014-02-01 15:58:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Except that the LP for the pirate ships can't really be earned in highsec. Still a net gain for highsec with the Sisters of Eve, compared to a few months ago.


What the **** are you talking about dude?

Are you mentally deficient?

Right now, you can only get SoE ships by running highsec missions or nullsec missions.

After the patch, you can get them by either of those two ways OR a random nullsec drop.

Meaning, nullsec is having new stuff added to it's drop pool. Meaning, it's a buff.

Do you get it? Or are you just a troll?