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DEV's why no missile dps bonused pirate?

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-01-29 12:18:20 UTC
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
I'm not sure why people think faction ship lines negate the need or otherwise reduce the want for a pirate ship line of the same vein either? This boggles my mind actually, more variety is good.


The point is that a shield-missile pirate faction isn't introducing more variety, because, as described, they're clones of the CN ships. The only way to get it to work would to give them some special ability that sets them apart from the CN ships. It's worth noting that the successful pirate factions generally have this - mobility for Angels, neuts and webs for Blood Raiders and webs for Serpentis, while the lacklustre ones are simply basic gank 'n' tank ships with no special abilities. A shield-missile pirate faction could work, but it would need a similar defining feature.

But what would that be? If we're talking Minmatar-Caldari hybrids where shield makes much more sense than armour, then a painter bonus is possible but lame, frankly. A web range bonus would work well, but it already exists on other pirate faction ships. I don't think anyone wants ECM bonuses, although an ECM Burst bonus would be amusing, briefly, before becoming hilariously annoying. If I had to choose one I'd take the web range bonus.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#22 - 2014-01-29 19:53:27 UTC
are they happy with the nightmare? damn

i hear sansha used to be armoured missile boats but got the swapsies into some kinda pre marauders.

doubt it would be a good idea to swap them back now that sansha blob ppl in incursions.


How's about an active tank missile gal/amarr combo with point range bonus? ill take my likes now thanksBig smile

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
unidenify
Deaf Armada
#23 - 2014-01-29 20:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: unidenify
Gypsio III wrote:
There's a perfectly good line of shield-missile faction boats already. Sure, they're not pirate faction, but it hardly matters. We don't really need another set of shield-missile boats, so a future pirate missile line would be better off being armour.

OTOH, CCP said that they had some interesting plans for Guristas, or the Gila at least, so who knows how they'll end up.


well, they indeed can make Guristas Missile-based ship again
there are now
2 drone bonus pirate ship line
2 Laser bonus Pirate ship line
1 Hybrid bonus pirate ship line
1 Projectile bonus pirate ship line


I find example of CCP Fozzie comment on it
Quote:
I would really like to see a missile focused pirate race at some point. As posters above have noted, the trick is figuring out how to make such a race feel unique and distinct since we have such a large variety of missile archetypes covered between Caldari, Minmatar and Amarr already. At this point we're more focused on figuring out how to get the current pirate ships into a healthier state than on adding new ones, but I would not be surprised whatsoever if the next pirate faction we add (someday) is primarily missile focused.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3990632#post3990632
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#24 - 2014-01-29 20:40:05 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

...
OTOH, CCP said that they had some interesting plans for Guristas, or the Gila at least,...


Uhoh!!

Translation:

Guristas get a fourty second reload after one shield boost and call it interesting gameplay What?

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-01-29 21:24:04 UTC
The comment about the Gila was made while the Stratios still had 125 bandwidth and outclassed the Gila in every possible way. Now that it's been nerfed I expect they'll leave the Gila in its current state, used by pretty much nobody
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#26 - 2014-01-29 22:09:27 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Id love to see something caldari/gallante myself. Maybe a missile damage bonus + and active rep bonus. Thatd be really fun.

Edit: Should have specified armor active rep bonus.


Active armor repair bonus on something that requires Caldari skills makes me convulse.

To be honest I think Guristas should shrug off being drone ships (that's the SOE's role now IMO), and should become missile brawlers. Extreme tank, great damage, not necessarily very good base velocity but light hulls so MWDs actually help them get into range.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#27 - 2014-01-29 22:30:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Gypsio III wrote:
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
I'm not sure why people think faction ship lines negate the need or otherwise reduce the want for a pirate ship line of the same vein either? This boggles my mind actually, more variety is good.


The point is that a shield-missile pirate faction isn't introducing more variety, because, as described, they're clones of the CN ships. The only way to get it to work would to give them some special ability that sets them apart from the CN ships. It's worth noting that the successful pirate factions generally have this - mobility for Angels, neuts and webs for Blood Raiders and webs for Serpentis, while the lacklustre ones are simply basic gank 'n' tank ships with no special abilities. A shield-missile pirate faction could work, but it would need a similar defining feature.

But what would that be? If we're talking Minmatar-Caldari hybrids where shield makes much more sense than armour, then a painter bonus is possible but lame, frankly. A web range bonus would work well, but it already exists on other pirate faction ships. I don't think anyone wants ECM bonuses, although an ECM Burst bonus would be amusing, briefly, before becoming hilariously annoying. If I had to choose one I'd take the web range bonus.



This basically.


the turret pirates have something to standout from the rank and file. Looking at the gallente line for example in the navy redo
navy mega switched to ROF so that vindi's damage bonus stood out.

Missiles this really can't be done. Looking at the caldari missile boats most fhe bases have been covered.

Tank. Want active go golem. But it in bastion, get resists as well. SNI....resists as well. And ratttler (we as a group can argue drone boat till cows come home....it fits missiles however).

Missiles/weapons: SNI, Golem, CNR, Rattler, again share all its of missiles common bonuses to them. Only bonus not touched is 5% per level damage. It would either be the contentious kinetic only one (not gonna argue that here, threads exist for it) or the cold realization ccp does not give out this bonus at BS level. If they did I imagine launcher numbers would be gimped. My proof...CNR. Its rebalance killed the mathematical extra launchers it had. Why turret boats get this I do not know. Well if you like wearing tin hats put it on and say CCP hates missiles but that is just my biased opinion lol.


Your e-war route you mention is a problem as well. ECM burst a good bonus. But its on scorpion already. Rare are the people who actually use this ability on them now. Scorpion doing this for much cheaper also has to be considered imo.

Webs I'd see useful but also not. TBH to be in range for use barring ccp getting thier ass in gear to fix missiles I'd still take blasterthron (and all its variants) over web bonused torps. This would be even lacking bonuses ccp has eroded over ttime on gallente side.


TL;DR current pirates stand out from their peers. A new pirate BS would have to have this. TBH if a new caldari baed pirate boat were to come online I'd predict and be quite content if it was hybrid based. As a bonused hybrid platform at the bs level is lacking for them. CCP started this slippery slope with naga, the BC that had caldari gun pilots going ohhh, this is what having damage bonuses and tracking is like.
Richard Shaw III
Doomheim
#28 - 2014-01-30 06:30:06 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:
I'm not sure why people think faction ship lines negate the need or otherwise reduce the want for a pirate ship line of the same vein either? This boggles my mind actually, more variety is good.


The point is that a shield-missile pirate faction isn't introducing more variety, because, as described, they're clones of the CN ships. The only way to get it to work would to give them some special ability that sets them apart from the CN ships. It's worth noting that the successful pirate factions generally have this - mobility for Angels, neuts and webs for Blood Raiders and webs for Serpentis, while the lacklustre ones are simply basic gank 'n' tank ships with no special abilities. A shield-missile pirate faction could work, but it would need a similar defining feature.

But what would that be? If we're talking Minmatar-Caldari hybrids where shield makes much more sense than armour, then a painter bonus is possible but lame, frankly. A web range bonus would work well, but it already exists on other pirate faction ships. I don't think anyone wants ECM bonuses, although an ECM Burst bonus would be amusing, briefly, before becoming hilariously annoying. If I had to choose one I'd take the web range bonus.



This basically.


the turret pirates have something to standout from the rank and file. Looking at the gallente line for example in the navy redo
navy mega switched to ROF so that vindi's damage bonus stood out.

Missiles this really can't be done. Looking at the caldari missile boats most fhe bases have been covered.

Tank. Want active go golem. But it in bastion, get resists as well. SNI....resists as well. And ratttler (we as a group can argue drone boat till cows come home....it fits missiles however).

Missiles/weapons: SNI, Golem, CNR, Rattler, again share all its of missiles common bonuses to them. Only bonus not touched is 5% per level damage. It would either be the contentious kinetic only one (not gonna argue that here, threads exist for it) or the cold realization ccp does not give out this bonus at BS level. If they did I imagine launcher numbers would be gimped. My proof...CNR. Its rebalance killed the mathematical extra launchers it had. Why turret boats get this I do not know. Well if you like wearing tin hats put it on and say CCP hates missiles but that is just my biased opinion lol.


Your e-war route you mention is a problem as well. ECM burst a good bonus. But its on scorpion already. Rare are the people who actually use this ability on them now. Scorpion doing this for much cheaper also has to be considered imo.

Webs I'd see useful but also not. TBH to be in range for use barring ccp getting thier ass in gear to fix missiles I'd still take blasterthron (and all its variants) over web bonused torps. This would be even lacking bonuses ccp has eroded over ttime on gallente side.


TL;DR current pirates stand out from their peers. A new pirate BS would have to have this. TBH if a new caldari baed pirate boat were to come online I'd predict and be quite content if it was hybrid based. As a bonused hybrid platform at the bs level is lacking for them. CCP started this slippery slope with naga, the BC that had caldari gun pilots going ohhh, this is what having damage bonuses and tracking is like.


Why would they make another Hybrid based Pirate BS hull when you have the Vindicator which is the end all be all for Hybrid DPS?

You say a new Pirate BS would have to stand out from their peers, and yet there are damage bonused BS hulls for every type of damage except MISSILES. So tell me again how this is "covered"?

I assume you are just trolling but if you were not aware the highest dps BS hull for missiles only use is the Typhoon Fleet Issue. It can get about 5% to 10% more missile DPS than any of the Caldari BS hulls.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#29 - 2014-01-30 07:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Richard Shaw III wrote:
You say a new Pirate BS would have to stand out from their peers, and yet there are damage bonused BS hulls for every type of damage except MISSILES. So tell me again how this is "covered"?

I assume you are just trolling but if you were not aware the highest dps BS hull for missiles only use is the Typhoon Fleet Issue. It can get about 5% to 10% more missile DPS than any of the Caldari BS hulls.



It was covered under the tin foil hat needed that ccp hates missiles. YOu will most likely never see this. You'd have to ask ccp why. This afaik has never even been a what the hell....try it on sisi bonus. And many things they have thought of have been there even if only to die there and never go beyond testing. Navy BS rebalance when ccp pulled rof on CNR they could have put damage there. they gave it its current bonus.

Now why say gallente gets to keep tracking and damage boosting bonuses (rof or raw damage) ccp has never commented on. Why, imo, you don't need much tin foil to make that hat lol.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#30 - 2014-01-30 09:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Parisi
Min \ Caldari will most likely be missiles / shield based. I also reckon they will have a battleship with a shield repping bonus. Allowing for an equivalent to the Nestor. As it currently stands there is no rr shield replying battleship and that is a hole that needs to be solved.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#31 - 2014-01-30 11:24:35 UTC
I'd love to address this. We've talked about it a bit but for now it's hard to say when we will get the chance. Hopefully sooner than later.

@ccp_rise
Turelus
Utassi Security
#32 - 2014-01-30 11:57:28 UTC
Incoming drone nerf to Rattlesnakes... P

Turelus CEO Utassi Security
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-01-30 13:19:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Warde Guildencrantz
no no no, no changing guristas ships. You make a whole new damn set of faction ships.

We have
Caldari/Amarr (Sansha)
Caldari/Gallente (Guristas)
Amarr/Gallente (SOE)
Amarr/Minmatar (Blood Raiders)
Minmatar/Gallente (Serpentis)
Minmatar/Gallente AGAIN (Angel)

Caldari only has 2. You know what that means:

Caldari/Minmatar (Mordu's Legion)

Web range bonus. Missile bonus. (I swear to god if you give it an ECM bonus or a TP bonus.)

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#34 - 2014-01-30 13:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
no no no, no changing guristas ships. You make a whole new damn set of faction ships.

We have
Caldari/Amarr (Sansha)
Caldari/Gallente (Guristas)
Amarr/Gallente (SOE)
Amarr/Minmatar (Blood Raiders)
Minmatar/Gallente (Serpentis)
Minmatar/Gallente AGAIN (Angel)

Caldari only has 2. You know what that means:

Caldari/Minmatar (Mordu's Legion)

Web range bonus. Missile bonus. (I swear to god if you give it an ECM bonus or a TP bonus.)


us missile pilots in the know; know that web works much better then damn target painters as we lose more dps when something is moving opposed to its sig radious.

so im all in for caldari/minmatar speedy missile chucker with ROF and %exolosive radious/velocity and shield resist per level and shield boost per level :3

and id want it to look like a Rokh.. a dark gunmetal grey to black Rokh

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2014-01-30 14:13:44 UTC
proper amarr/gallente would be nice, since soe is trash
Dav Varan
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-01-30 14:14:20 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
no no no, no changing guristas ships. You make a whole new damn set of faction ships.

We have
Caldari/Amarr (Sansha)
Caldari/Gallente (Guristas)
Amarr/Gallente (SOE)
Amarr/Minmatar (Blood Raiders)
Minmatar/Gallente (Serpentis)
Minmatar/Gallente AGAIN (Angel)

Caldari only has 2. You know what that means:

Caldari/Minmatar (Mordu's Legion)

Web range bonus. Missile bonus. (I swear to god if you give it an ECM bonus or a TP bonus.)



Given the training path imbalance it would be best to retask Angels

Angels becoming Speed/Missiles Minmatar/Caldari

That would give each race 3 training paths into pirate ships.
Richard Shaw III
Doomheim
#37 - 2014-01-30 14:20:58 UTC
I love the "use the Rokh hull idea"!

Personally, changing the Guristas to a damage bonused missile ship does make more sense than a whole new pirate line with the balance pass still yet to come to the pirate ships. As far as the specific bonuses beyond the damage bonus, I would not get too excited as the damage based pirate faction ships (I'm excluding the SOE line as it's an exploring ship not a damage dealer) have one role bonus then the two racial bonuses. I would be happy with role bonus like [u ]37.5% missile damage bonus[/u] with a 7.5% explosion radius bonus / caldari and 4% resist bonus / gallente

On that note I have yet to find the original stats for the rattlesnake but I can say from looking at the first fits on battleclinic website it appeared to be more of a missile boat to begin with but was changed somewhere along the way. I would love to see what the old stats were.

With the SOE line being what it is should it really be classed a pirate faction ship vs a navy faction. The ONLY reason I can see calling it a pirate faction ship is the dual skill use.

Thanks for stopping in CCP Rise. Has then been any mention when (months to years to after we add Jove to playable race) the balance pass will strike the pirate line. I hope the pirate line keeps its offence minded stance as a group.
Richard Shaw III
Doomheim
#38 - 2014-01-30 14:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Richard Shaw III
Dav Varan wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
no no no, no changing guristas ships. You make a whole new damn set of faction ships.

We have
Caldari/Amarr (Sansha)
Caldari/Gallente (Guristas)
Amarr/Gallente (SOE)
Amarr/Minmatar (Blood Raiders)
Minmatar/Gallente (Serpentis)
Minmatar/Gallente AGAIN (Angel)

Caldari only has 2. You know what that means:

Caldari/Minmatar (Mordu's Legion)

Web range bonus. Missile bonus. (I swear to god if you give it an ECM bonus or a TP bonus.)



Given the training path imbalance it would be best to retask Angels

Angels becoming Speed/Missiles Minmatar/Caldari

That would give each race 3 training paths into pirate ships.


I agree with you in theory but I would rather see them redo the Blood Raider line (if that was what they wish to do) as Angel is Projectile DPS line of ships. I would rather see the Blood Raiders who are a non damage based (neut & web iirc), rather than the Angel who the best Projectile damage based ships.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#39 - 2014-01-30 14:28:48 UTC
more like proper split weapons guristas: proper number of launchers, full dronebay, missile damage, drone damage, shield resists.
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#40 - 2014-01-30 14:32:03 UTC
I'd be happy with swapping the rattler's range bonus for a dps bonus.

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--