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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

First post First post First post
Author
Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2221 - 2014-01-30 08:37:59 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
In the 24hrs (ish) since release of the Nestor Jita has sold:

88 Nestors
85 Machariels
81 Rattlesnakes
44 Nightmares
40 Vindicators
23 Bhaalgorns

In the 24hrs since release of the Stratios Jita had sold:

1162 Stratios
108 Cynabal
97 Gila
68 Vigilants
20 Ashimmus
17 Phantasms

Big smile

What about the Astero?

641 Asteros
12 Cruor
51 Daredevil
33 Dramiel
6 Succubus
29 Worm
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#2222 - 2014-01-30 08:49:38 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair, Battleships take longer to build than cruisers, so it's going to take longer for them to roll off the lines in numbers. But yea.... Underwhelming sale numbers as expected. And if the price is already below the Stratios, the market has soundly spoken. Given how crazy the stratios prices were for the first week.
Astero & Stratios both were useful, if they felt pure Gallente due to no useful laser bonuses and needing the cap for everything else being best not laser fitted mainly.
Nestor is just terrible.


The astero just got even more awesome in the last patch. The recloak delay is down to 15s from 30s, which means it can now be used for active hunting across several systems.

It's rapidly becoming the pvp scout ship of choice in our corp.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2223 - 2014-01-31 03:24:17 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair, Battleships take longer to build than cruisers, so it's going to take longer for them to roll off the lines in numbers. But yea.... Underwhelming sale numbers as expected. And if the price is already below the Stratios, the market has soundly spoken. Given how crazy the stratios prices were for the first week.
Astero & Stratios both were useful, if they felt pure Gallente due to no useful laser bonuses and needing the cap for everything else being best not laser fitted mainly.
Nestor is just terrible.


yeah it is

But to be honest I prefer they bring out a broken Nestor and maybe fix it rather than doing their normal thing of releasing something way overpowered and then nerfing it 6 months later.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#2224 - 2014-01-31 08:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair, Battleships take longer to build than cruisers, so it's going to take longer for them to roll off the lines in numbers. But yea.... Underwhelming sale numbers as expected. And if the price is already below the Stratios, the market has soundly spoken. Given how crazy the stratios prices were for the first week.
Astero & Stratios both were useful, if they felt pure Gallente due to no useful laser bonuses and needing the cap for everything else being best not laser fitted mainly.
Nestor is just terrible.


yeah it is

But to be honest I prefer they bring out a broken Nestor and maybe fix it rather than doing their normal thing of releasing something way overpowered and then nerfing it 6 months later.


CCP have put themselves in a corner here. The Nestor can be earned with no risk in hisec. Given that, here's no way it will be made as powerful as a pirate ship. Nor can CCP lower the cost without reimbursing everyone who's built or bought one.

Forget about the Nestor. It's finished.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#2225 - 2014-01-31 10:21:12 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
To be fair, Battleships take longer to build than cruisers, so it's going to take longer for them to roll off the lines in numbers. But yea.... Underwhelming sale numbers as expected. And if the price is already below the Stratios, the market has soundly spoken. Given how crazy the stratios prices were for the first week.
Astero & Stratios both were useful, if they felt pure Gallente due to no useful laser bonuses and needing the cap for everything else being best not laser fitted mainly.
Nestor is just terrible.


yeah it is

But to be honest I prefer they bring out a broken Nestor and maybe fix it rather than doing their normal thing of releasing something way overpowered and then nerfing it 6 months later.


CCP have put themselves in a corner here. The Nestor can be earned with no risk in hisec. Given that, here's no way it will be made as powerful as a pirate ship. Nor can CCP lower the cost without reimbursing everyone who's built or bought one.

Forget about the Nestor. It's finished.


You say "No Risk" but have you seen the KB's for the SOE L4 Mission Agent areas? Now while I grant you it's more down to stupidity that someone in a ISK4bn Golem get's ganked doing and L4 it's not completely without risk...

I agree however that I can't think of a purpose that I would want a Nestor for TBH apart from the "Oh a white ship" factor in somewhere like Ammold.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2226 - 2014-01-31 11:08:30 UTC
Every pirate BS can be 'earned' for no risk in high sec. It's called farm the Isk, buy in Jita. There isn't a market shortage of them. And the equivalent cost for the Nestor is triple to quadruple the other BS.
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#2227 - 2014-01-31 11:21:47 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:


You say "No Risk" but have you seen the KB's for the SOE L4 Mission Agent areas? Now while I grant you it's more down to stupidity that someone in a ISK4bn Golem get's ganked doing and L4 it's not completely without risk...

I agree however that I can't think of a purpose that I would want a Nestor for TBH apart from the "Oh a white ship" factor in somewhere like Ammold.


Even after the omnidirectional tracking link nerf, you can still farm SoE missions very quickly indeed in a combination of dominix, interceptor and ishtar.

Dominix still gives 1000dps at all ranges to 70km (2 or 3 omnis, garde II, 2 or 3 drone damage augmentors).
MWD Ishtar allows you to blitz the recon gas cloud mission (and stick around to kill rats if you must)
interceptor aces the cargo delivery and jump gate missions

The maximum potential loss on the table at any one moment is 250m isk. The maximum value drop is in the order of 7m isk (30% of your isk20m in fittings). I can assure you that you are completely safe from being ganked.

There is as close to zero risk in obtaining a Nestor as is possible to achieve without staying in a station.

A priate battleship can be bought, but that money is a proxy for the risk someone else took in acquiring the blueprint. There is certainly an element of risk premium in the price, tempered by a good supply of willing risk-takers.

And before someone starts up about using bling ships to run missions - it's a totally false economy, always. An absolutely sub-optimal risk/reward play. Only a noob or a moron would do it.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Jell Feed
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2228 - 2014-01-31 12:01:04 UTC
Nestor losses...

kepping track of the creative ways peeps find to fit and use this ship!

https://zkillboard.com/ship/33472/losses/

Phaade
Proioxis Assault Force
Rogue Caldari Union
#2229 - 2014-02-01 00:32:02 UTC
The Nestor is really, really bad.....
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#2230 - 2014-02-01 08:02:05 UTC
Phaade wrote:
The Nestor is really, really bad.....

You won't get any argument from me...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2231 - 2014-02-01 10:45:05 UTC
I'm starting to notice that Rise likes to unsticky the threads that are not overly positive...
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#2232 - 2014-02-01 17:33:15 UTC
Yeah, well, he should have thought of that before he released this turd.

The Nestor is one of the worst ships I've seen in eve in a long time. Seriously, who the **** would use it? It's a gold plated dom. It might, MIGHT have been usable with a covert cloak. MIGHT. Because then you could have actually taken it into WH space like it's description suggests. As is though no one in thier right mind would use it for anything but a collectors piece.

'Well, drones will drop the BPC for it that will reduce price!' The hell it will. I do drone sites, unlike most of eve, and since they first appeared I can count on one hand how many sentients I've seen.
Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#2233 - 2014-02-01 18:36:20 UTC
I'm still thinking that a utility BS with 5 turret hard points and a laser bonus deserves more than 11k power grid.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

Onictus
SniggWaffe
Pandemic Horde
#2234 - 2014-02-02 21:47:50 UTC
Jell Feed wrote:
Nestor losses...

kepping track of the creative ways peeps find to fit and use this ship!

https://zkillboard.com/ship/33472/losses/



lol holy crap.
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2235 - 2014-02-10 18:08:20 UTC
Alright, I’m gonna take another stab at this.

I won’t reiterate what could be done to make the Nestor viable for exploration, in the vein of the Stratios and Astero. It’s been said often enough here. Rather, at least for the moment, I think we have to accept that the Nestor simply isn’t meant to serve as a true exploration ship (which makes the hacking bonuses rather more confusing, but hey). Instead, the intended role seems to be “combat logi,” particularly given its billing in the patch notes as

Quote:
the most potent sub-cap logistic ship in EVE.


And I will say, this is perhaps not a useless role to fill. Having a capable logistics boat that can also contribute significant DPS could offer some interesting possibilities—if, and only if, those logistics capabilities are competitive with existing support ships, particularly logistics cruisers and carriers. Unfortunately, the Nestor leaves something to be desired here. If you’re going to bill it as “the most potent &c. &c.,” then I think you have some work to do to bring it up to spec.

Logistics cruisers are a natural point of comparison. In theory, the Nestor is capable of out-repping existing armor logis, which is not a terrible start. It is unfortunate that a logi can rep at ranges of over 4x that of the Nestor, and is more mobile to start with; probably a logi should be able to rep at longer ranges, but I’m not sure the current 100% range bonus on the Nestor strikes the right balance. Much more damningly, the cap life on the Nestor is simply atrocious: where a Guardian can comfortably maintain cap stability in a 4 rep / 2 cap transfer configuration, the Nestor can’t even manage that in a 3/3 setup without additional equipment. In fact, with 2 reps and 4 transfers, it will remain cap stable at 24.5%—provided no other modules are active. This problem is compounded by the fact that the Nestor has no bonus to cap xfer range to go along with its rep range bonus. Note that in these hypothetical setups, a 4/2 Guardian with armor maintenance bots can repair 376 HP/s out to the 60 km (or 341 HP/s out to 71 km), compared to the 3/3 Nestor’s 384 HP/s out to 16.8 km. (The Nestor could deploy armor maintenance bots of its own to an added 90 HP/s max, but then you are sacrificing its DPS output, at which point it becomes just another logi.) Granted, in this example the Nestor is out-repping a Guardian with 25% fewer repair modules and no drones, which is not something to ignore; but it is doing so at barely over 22% of the Guardian’s range, and without the Guardian’s means to protect itself against cap warfare. Nestor’s scan resolution is also pitifully low, which is a significant drawback for a support ship. It does have an edge in sensor strength (and room to improve that further), which gives it a bit of added resistance to ECM; and of course, it can contribute as much as 700+ DPS to its gang, which a logi can’t, so that’s good. But in order to be competitive in a logistics role (and thus worth fielding in place of logis and high-DPS battleships), its cap life, scan resolution, and possibly rep range all need to be considered for improvement—not to a place better than logis, since the goal is not to obsolete those hulls, but certainly to a healthier place than the current state.

Then, of course, the Nestor also has to compete with remote-repairing carriers. Personally I’m of the opinion that a triage carrier should clearly outperform Nestor in a support role: they pay for their added reps by becoming stationary targets unable to field DPS or receive remote repairs themselves, both capabilities the Nestor gets to keep. But given that non-triaged carriers can provide more DPS than an RR-fit Nestor*, while still providing substantially greater repping power at nearly 3.5x more than the Nestor’s range (and cap transfer range and amount bonuses on the Archon and Chimera), the Nestor still isn’t as competitive as it should be. This is even before we consider the much higher EHP and sensor strength afforded to carriers.

I haven’t addressed price yet, since the drone Nexus chip drops should lower the Nestor’s in the long run. But even if the price falls to the average cost of the other (non-Rattlesnake) pirate battleships, it will still be five times as expensive as a Guardian, 72% of the cost of an Archon, and 81% of the cost of a Chimera (before fittings). In order to compete with these ships in its current combat logi role, it needs to perform better on the “logi” side of things. The Nestor has the making of some good balance points (chiefly sensor strength, DPS, and raw rep amount, as compared to logistics cruisers), but the balance just isn’t currently in its favor, cost notwithstanding.
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#2236 - 2014-02-10 18:09:20 UTC
To illustrate some of the points I made in my previous post, I went ahead and drew up a spreadsheet (because :EVE:) comparing the Nestor with the two armor logistics cruisers and the dedicated armor-repairing carrier. For reasons mentioned above, I decided not to include numbers for a triage-equipped Archon; I think it suffices to show that the non-triage version already performs so well when compared with the Nestor.

The first three sections of the spreadsheet show, respectively: 1) maximum rep capability with all high slots in use (plus maintenance bots for the logis), as well as the range of these reps and the cap life of this configuration without any additional equipment; 2) rep capability and cap life in a fit where two high slots are given over to cap transfers and the remainder to reps; and 3) the number of (non-Cap Booster) modules and rigs needed to keep four T2 large reps running indefinitely. Obviously there are other (and more in-depth) comparisons that can be made, but I think this gives a broad enough outline to start. Here are what I see as the key takeaways:

Nestor PRO

  • Theoretical maximum rep amount (compared to logis but NOT to carriers)
  • DPS (compared to logis and triage carriers but NOT to non-triage carriers)
  • Sensor strength (compared to logis but NOT to carriers)
  • Hi-sec and low-class wormhole access (compared to carriers but NOT to logis)


Nestor CON

  • Limited rep range (compared to logis AND carriers)
  • EHP as a function of signature radius low (compared to logis AND carriers)
  • Weak capacitor (compared to logis AND carriers)
  • Poor scan resolution (compared to logis AND triage carriers but NOT to non-triage carriers)
  • No additional fleet support capability:
  • Quote:
  • No cap transfer bonus (compared to Guardian, Archon, Chimera)
  • No shield transfer bonus (compared to Thanatos, Nidhoggur)
  • No tracking link bonus (compared to Oneiros, Scimitar)
  • No warfare link capability (compared to all carriers)
  • Fleet utility of scan probe bonus obviated by use of dedicated scouts
  • Cost (even assuming prices comparable to existing pirate faction battleships, the Nestor’s cost will greatly exceed that of a logi and approach that of a carrier)


I believe that the goal should not be to eliminate the “cons” entirely; after all, the essence of balance is having a healthy mix of pros and cons when weighing choice of equipment for a given role. This, however, does not seem like a healthy mix to me. The cons are too many, too severe, and the pros abound in caveats. If it were for me to prioritize, I would suggest that the Nestor’s cap issues need to be addressed first, followed either by its rep range or its scan res. I don’t think it will be necessary to give the Nestor added fleet support capability, except perhaps some kind of cap transfer bonuses; but as it stands, the capabilities (or lack thereof) listed as cons highlight the many incentives to use logis or carriers instead. Likewise, I point out the cost not to suggest that it should be cheaper, but merely to note that driving down the price with the drop mechanism may not be enough to incentivize the Nestor over its similarly priced or substantially cheaper counterparts.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#2237 - 2014-02-12 11:48:56 UTC
This is a pretty great analysis. I'll have a look at getting some tweaks in to address some of the issues you raise.

Thanks for a really well-articulated argument, I'll update everyone if we can commit to any changes in the near future.

@ccp_rise

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#2238 - 2014-02-12 11:51:17 UTC
but it's only comparing nestor to overpowered broken ships (carriers and logis).
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2239 - 2014-02-12 12:00:09 UTC
Logis aren't overpowered. Besides, if you nerf them, we'll just bring more of them.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#2240 - 2014-02-12 12:07:08 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Logis aren't overpowered. Besides, if you nerf them, we'll just bring more of them.


My experience is that in small engagements, the presence of 3 guardians is a force multiplier of a scale that is OP. I think they could do with lower resists, higher sig radii or removal of the cap chain ability.

This would not harm their applicability to fleets but would make them less of an auto-win in a skirmish.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".