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CSM meets CCP Senior Producer Zulu about your concerns

First post First post
Author
Vicar2008
MCMLXXVI
#181 - 2011-09-10 11:12:23 UTC
Seleene wrote:
Salpun wrote:
While I agree with you maybe he is busy writing a devblog so it can be published this weekendLol As CCP has a one DevBlog a day policy we might see some more devblogs over the weekend that might answer some of the pressing questions


I don't think that's going to happen seeing as how Zulu is planning to speak with the CSM again next week. It seems that CCP has learned a lesson or two about running things by the CSM before ummm... 'surprising' the community with news. Cool

Salpun wrote:
And Seleene please ask about the Dev answers every question. The tread has not been added to the new forums and we need a updateTwisted


Good point and I'll poke someone about getting that going again.

I also wrote a quick blog about the events of today to try and put everything in one place: Minutes & Meetings



Thanks for the link to your blog Seleene, that actually made me more confident about actual stuff happening behind the scenes. Hopefully good news can be conveyed to us very soon in the form of a blog from CCP with actual gameplay content.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#182 - 2011-09-10 11:13:17 UTC
I am just surprised it took this long to implement SM3.

SM3 came out in 2004, and people are butthurt that they can't play Eve on their PC anymore?

Do yourself a favour, go out and buy a nice decent graphics card. Turn Eve settings up to max and enjoy.

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
#183 - 2011-09-10 11:16:08 UTC
This is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what CCP says.
CCP Manifest
CCP Retirement Home
#184 - 2011-09-10 12:26:30 UTC
MailDeadDrop wrote:
So far we have Meissa, Mittani, Two Step, and a few other CSM delegates (sorry -- can't be bothered to gather all the names) claiming to have had a meeting with one CCP manager, and claiming that good stuff was talked about, and claiming that we'll hear about it, eventually, maybe. 138 posts and 7+ hours later, and not a single CCP person has chimed to confirm even the most basic of facts; like even the meeting occurred, much less that anything substantial was discussed or that anything will be the result of it or even the vaguest of indications when. I predict that none will be forthcoming in the next several days either, seeing as CCP is incapable of staffing for the weekend.

Face it CSM: CCP has absolutely no respect for you, and by extension no respect for the players. They're just trolling you. Quelle surprise

MDD


This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.

Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation. Sorry dads I am disappoint.

However, for what it's worth, as an EVE player I can say that I am wet-my-pants-silly-happy about where the meeting content is headed. Yes, this was a preliminary meeting, but it was absolutely positively necessarily so. That does put the CSM temporarily in a bit of a tough spot, but eh, they were elected to be in that tough spot and kinda campaigned to be there.

I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.

One of my main takeaways from the meeting (and my dealings with them separate from the meeting) is that the CSM will not be distracted from their stated mission. Their tactical use of a mini-PR campaign is a testament to that. Their immediate first responses to stuff Zulu had to say also speaks volumes to their undeterrability. They haven't "called a truce" or been sated.. yet. See Mittani's Red Meat comments in this thread. Their questions were myriad and delivered stalwartly. Also, they haven't been threatened with the NDA wagged in front of their faces. They have stood quite firm in their priorities--and are very much of the mind of many of you that it's going to be "watch what we do" .

They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.


======== o7 _CCP Manifest | Public Relations and Social Media | @ccp_manifest_

Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2011-09-10 12:44:49 UTC
CCP Manifest wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
So far we have Meissa, Mittani, Two Step, and a few other CSM delegates (sorry -- can't be bothered to gather all the names) claiming to have had a meeting with one CCP manager, and claiming that good stuff was talked about, and claiming that we'll hear about it, eventually, maybe. 138 posts and 7+ hours later, and not a single CCP person has chimed to confirm even the most basic of facts; like even the meeting occurred, much less that anything substantial was discussed or that anything will be the result of it or even the vaguest of indications when. I predict that none will be forthcoming in the next several days either, seeing as CCP is incapable of staffing for the weekend.

Face it CSM: CCP has absolutely no respect for you, and by extension no respect for the players. They're just trolling you. Quelle surprise

MDD


This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.

Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation. Sorry dads I am disappoint.

However, for what it's worth, as an EVE player I can say that I am wet-my-pants-silly-happy about where the meeting content is headed. Yes, this was a preliminary meeting, but it was absolutely positively necessarily so. That does put the CSM temporarily in a bit of a tough spot, but eh, they were elected to be in that tough spot and kinda campaigned to be there.

I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.

One of my main takeaways from the meeting (and my dealings with them separate from the meeting) is that the CSM will not be distracted from their stated mission. Their tactical use of a mini-PR campaign is a testament to that. Their immediate first responses to stuff Zulu had to say also speaks volumes to their undeterrability. They haven't "called a truce" or been sated.. yet. See Mittani's Red Meat comments in this thread. Their questions were myriad and delivered stalwartly. Also, they haven't been threatened with the NDA wagged in front of their faces. They have stood quite firm in their priorities--and are very much of the mind of many of you that it's going to be "watch what we do" .

They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.




CCP Manifest, if i may be so bold...

tl;dr, CCP is a business. And as far as businesses go, they number one business goal is to stay in business. That is best done by having great products people are wanting to buy

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

Azelor Delaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#186 - 2011-09-10 12:51:54 UTC
CCP Manifest wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
So far we have Meissa, Mittani, Two Step, and a few other CSM delegates (sorry -- can't be bothered to gather all the names) claiming to have had a meeting with one CCP manager, and claiming that good stuff was talked about, and claiming that we'll hear about it, eventually, maybe. 138 posts and 7+ hours later, and not a single CCP person has chimed to confirm even the most basic of facts; like even the meeting occurred, much less that anything substantial was discussed or that anything will be the result of it or even the vaguest of indications when. I predict that none will be forthcoming in the next several days either, seeing as CCP is incapable of staffing for the weekend.

Face it CSM: CCP has absolutely no respect for you, and by extension no respect for the players. They're just trolling you. Quelle surprise

MDD


This is a very fair point. Thanks for bringing it up.

I'd been talking to the CSM about something entirely unrelated a day or two before, but since I already knew what the content of yesterday's dialogue was going to be, I requested to be a part of the meeting as a fly on the wall. CCP Xhagen graciously accepted my request.

Obviously, since I am also under NDA as an employee (and since I'm part of the evil team of the one single guy in public relations that pursues press opportunities) I too cannot reveal the main bulk of the conversation. Sorry dads I am disappoint.

However, for what it's worth, as an EVE player I can say that I am wet-my-pants-silly-happy about where the meeting content is headed. Yes, this was a preliminary meeting, but it was absolutely positively necessarily so. That does put the CSM temporarily in a bit of a tough spot, but eh, they were elected to be in that tough spot and kinda campaigned to be there.

I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.

One of my main takeaways from the meeting (and my dealings with them separate from the meeting) is that the CSM will not be distracted from their stated mission. Their tactical use of a mini-PR campaign is a testament to that. Their immediate first responses to stuff Zulu had to say also speaks volumes to their undeterrability. They haven't "called a truce" or been sated.. yet. See Mittani's Red Meat comments in this thread. Their questions were myriad and delivered stalwartly. Also, they haven't been threatened with the NDA wagged in front of their faces. They have stood quite firm in their priorities--and are very much of the mind of many of you that it's going to be "watch what we do" .

They are right in saying that nothing of detailed substance was said during the meeting--however there was apparently enough vague substance to convince them that the next meeting should be promising indeed. Convinced enough to decide to come to you guys and give a progress report, treading dangeous political waters. If the preliminary meeting didn't smell of enough Red Meat, I severely doubt they would be here at all. We didn't try to convince them to speak to you guys.

Hope that addresses some of the meta-comments here about the CSM's behavior/communications. Sorry about the delay in coming here. I had to sleep.




You don't need to convince them. You need to convince us. You can say all you want that nothing of substance was talked about, but whether the NDA is wagged in their face or not isn't the issue. The fact they can't talk about something that had no "substance" because of the NDA speaks for itself.

No one really takes the CSM seriously anymore. They are puppets for you, and only looking out for their own interests. You have to convince us, the majority of the players not privy to any communiques involved. Until then, what you do speaks so loudly that what you say I can not hear. And until we see something substantial, with CCP acting on it, this means little to nothing.
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus
S I L E N T.
#187 - 2011-09-10 13:00:45 UTC
Seleene wrote:
This meeting was something of a surprise and the content of it was enough to convince me that CCP is taking the concerns of the CSM and the players very seriously. Beyond that I cannot say more.


More like taking the (un)subcription numbers seriously. The accounting department is likely the best ally the players got inside CCP, it wielding most influence than Team BFF will ever have. It also proves that unsubscribing is with bad press by far the best lever players have. Way more efficient that threadnaughts and in game protests will ever be. It gives you time to play other games too, some even made by professional studios for once (DeusEX: HR anyone?)

Go go bean counters! Make them do the right thing.


Mr LaForge
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#188 - 2011-09-10 13:03:40 UTC
CCP Manifest wrote:


I'll get it out of the way here. This meeting was not about ponies. Sorry guys.



Now I'm REALLY disappointed.

Stuff Goes here

Reva Dantenov
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2011-09-10 13:09:31 UTC
This is the best CSM ever. Every time they do or say anything, dozens of crazies come out of the woodwork. And we get to reap the delicious tears.

Ponies ponies ponies ponies.

Meryl SinGarda
Belligerent Underpaid Tactical Team
#190 - 2011-09-10 13:09:48 UTC
Caius Sivaris wrote:
This is one of the moments where we look at what CCP does and less of what CCP says.


This statement is becoming so old and stale that it has completely lost its meaning. Not that it had any meaning, for me, in the first place. Please come up with something new to say in order to present your bitterness toward CCP.
Tribunia
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#191 - 2011-09-10 13:22:22 UTC
Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
... we discussed the players' concerns


I would put it to be CCP s concern. Really.

Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
...I can't disclose in what way yet.



Are there more ways than one to solve this debacle?
Jon Taggart
State War Academy
Caldari State
#192 - 2011-09-10 13:41:06 UTC
I'd say wait until the Winter expansion hits and see. What else can be said that already hasn't been repeated ad infinitum? Hide the torches for now, but be ready to use them if necessary.
Nin Kimrov
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
#193 - 2011-09-10 13:53:59 UTC
I will say it another time : If CCP can't come with a planned development plan concerning EvE online space content, and if CCP don't respect their own release planning, then the game will suffer like it currently is.

CCP will really need to do another expansion like Apocrypha. Even that, I don't one an expansion, I want them to fix the features that we have in the game, but are not working. Hybrid weapon, faction warfare, POS, low sec dynamic, 0.0 dynamic.

We all know that CCP said they would fix those stuff, one day or another, soon, etc. But I still question myself : the rebalance of the dramiel ship certainly don't take 6 months to do. Please, if it is rebalance stuff, don't make an expansion with it. We also need new stuff.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#194 - 2011-09-10 13:58:39 UTC
Puppet Mas'ter wrote:
Cearain wrote:



Well the nice part here is we are actually dealing with numbers. How many devs are currently assigned to real eve? How many will be assigned when? These are the questions that need answers.

If CSM comes back with anything other than these numbers this is a waste.



I really think they will slam headlong into the NDA here.



Well CCP made a dev blog with many of the numbers in july 2010. If they are not willing to tell us now we can figure out the truth.

Again unless we hear they assigning devs to eve only an idiot will think they are developing it. If we do not hear how devs are assigned, then any talk about some fix or balance will just mean they stopped working on some other part of eve. Net gain will still be zero.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#195 - 2011-09-10 15:31:39 UTC
speaking to a few peeps in corp chat about these meetings and to cut a long story short the underlying feeling was :

patch notes or GTFO

OMG when can i get a pic here

Gnulpie
Sihars Little Industries
#196 - 2011-09-10 15:49:49 UTC
This "we can't say anything, it is NDA" is stupid. Stupid and an insult to the players.


If you can't even say "we are satisfied with the meeting, things are moving now into the right direction" or "we don't know what will happen, at least some people at CCP listened to us" or "this meeting was useless, we feel completely ignored" then you should right away step down from the CSM - this has nothing to do with NDA.


No one expects you to release a detailed report of the meeting. Such report needs times, needs to be checked by CCP etc. No one in their right mind would expect such a report right now.


But you should certainly be able to communicate your feelings about the meeting and your impression. And that is all it needs at the moment. You, the CSM, says that CCP needs to communicate better but you aren't doing better, quite the contrary!


Sister Bliss
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#197 - 2011-09-10 15:52:12 UTC
Two step wrote:
E man Industries wrote:
Can the CSm meet with higher than Zulu...

I'm sure zulu would agree with much of what the CSM wants...but he can't allocate more budget from WoD to FIS.


I'm 99% sure that the only person above Zulu is Hilmar.


If that's the case, then Zulu has a hell of a lot of things to answer for.
Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#198 - 2011-09-10 15:58:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Malcanis wrote:
Kengutsi Akira wrote:
MailDeadDrop wrote:
like even the meeting occurred


I think it occurred, and threats of legal action / bannings were liberally handed out and they were told to me good little lapdogs again or **** would get real an the one ex lawyer would get to meet the CCP legal team

oh yeah what kind of lawyer is he I wanted to ask that the first time I heard he was one. Cause if he's anything other than international/icelandic corporate law, Im pretty sure he's in over his head here

Hotaru Yamato wrote:
I trust the CSM will represent the eve players' views to the best to their ability.


epic troll


Thanks for your analysis, O mighty internet lawyer. Can you tell me exactly what law you think the CSMs might be faced with charges under? "A first degree charge of Saying Mean Things That Are Provably True"? So far as I know, none of them live in Iceland, so they'd have to be extradited to face any charges.

As for banning? Yeah that'd work well, real smart tactics. I can tell you've read your Machiavelli. Even apart from the tsunami of horrible PR that would generate, even apart from the massive shitstorm that would immediately occur within the playerbase, what do you think the reaction of the banned CSMs might be? Might there be some retaliation that they could take, do you think?




man you just orgasm by trolling everything I say dont you? lol

ooh there I gave you another one.

I dunno where you come off flaming me for being an internet lawyer when I just asked what mittens' specialty was lol
You part of his fan club too now? Watch out for that kool aid man it has a kick

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes

Kengutsi Akira
Doomheim
#199 - 2011-09-10 16:05:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kengutsi Akira
Louis deGuerre wrote:
Dear CSM,

If you have nothing to say then don't say anything.

I like you guys so not reported for spam/trolling. Bear

*Hugs*


As Ive noticed it doesnt even matter if you do report them the mods dont touch anything they say, an Ive seen some pretty blatantly troll posts by more than a few of them.

Sigras wrote:
THIS game needs an NDA because of the competitive nature of it. IE if I knew they were definitely going to remove ice from high sec tomorrow, guess what i'd be buying today?



Hence why them telling us there would be more transparency was utter bullshit. You cant HAVE more transparency in this game cause the sharks will take it as a sign of weakness and use every bit of info given to their advantage
AND THATS NOT A BAD THING

Transparency just doesnt track in a game this cutthroat

Azelor Delaria wrote:
J Kunjeh wrote:
Azelor Delaria wrote:

You want to prove you're on our side, then tell CCP to f*** off on the NDA just once. If the entire CSM says, "You know what? The NDA is good, but transparency was promised, and you owe the players that much", what is CCP going to do? Fire you all? You don't work for them. Are they going to kick you off the CSM? If you truly want to help, then let your balls drop - all of you and put your money where your mouth is. All we see if pussyfooting around the subjects with vague insinuations and non-specific threads. It gets old.


You're totally clueless about the real world, obviously, so I'll help you out: NDA's have LEGAL standing and those who break them can be sued in court. So yeah, NONE of them are likely to break NDA and for damn good reason.

Fool...


Non-Disclosure Agreements have legal standing if, and only if, the information obtained and disseminated produces actual harm. In essence, unless trade secrets are leaked, the NDA isn't violated. A CSM coming out and saying, "Look, we talked about X with CCP, Zulu agrees, he's bringing it to the bosses" isn't a violation of trade secrets. At least I hope it isn't.

I mean, is making the game better to keep subscriptions a trade secret, now...?



lol THIS guy is the internet lawyer.
Yes it IS a trade secret. Theres a reason some games dont want ppl to know the number of subs they have. ANYTHING THEY DISCUSS in the meetings that has or (especially) will have an impact on the game them become trade secrets.
Its like if Ford were in a meeting where theyre discussing the new transmission (here it would be code or a tweak or a fix or NeX items) theyre planning on putting on their newest car.
No there are no CURRENT competitors to EVE out there, but how do we know there arent ppl planning on making something or deep in the coding of a new game thats yet unannounced that would be interested in snapping up info given out freely
Which is kinda why transparency is a broken idea here.

"Is it fair that CCP can get away with..." :: checks ownership on the box ::

Yes

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#200 - 2011-09-10 16:22:05 UTC
Headerman wrote:
I am just surprised it took this long to implement SM3.

SM3 came out in 2004, and people are butthurt that they can't play Eve on their PC anymore?

Do yourself a favour, go out and buy a nice decent graphics card. Turn Eve settings up to max and enjoy.


Release too early and people will complain it cant be played on hardware that's still not legacy.

Release too late and people will play games with better graphics.

Damned if you dont damned if you do. although in all reality they were probably just waiting till it was "ready".




internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it