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Feedback Request - Margin trading and accurate market UI

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Author
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#421 - 2014-01-27 01:22:24 UTC
I agree, bumping for a good cause.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#422 - 2014-01-27 19:02:17 UTC
There's still nothing wrong with the skill, works exactly as designed and implemented. What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged and greedy at the same time. That combination needs to be punished and there really is no better way to punish someone than going through his/her wallet.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

indiana bones
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#423 - 2014-01-27 19:13:54 UTC  |  Edited by: indiana bones
Remove skill from game and reimburse SP.

Probably not the most popular suggestion, but would solve the problem. If you were designing EVE 2.0, would you include this skill/ability?
Jacob Cobb
Doomheim
#424 - 2014-01-28 07:57:40 UTC
I am not in favor of cutting the Margin Trading skill from the game. I am interested in stopping people from using an in game mechanic to cheat people.
So... here is an idea something that might be doable for a short term idea. Something to start with. As in a "hot fix" NOW... Make it so that the Margin Trading skill is non-trainable on trial accounts. And to be honest, perhaps more of the market based skills should be set this way. In order to prevent individuals from using trial accounts in an abusive manner.
Further more, I would even go so far as to suggest the tracking of either email address associated with trial accounts. Because if an individual has 50+ trail accounts associated with an email address.... there might be something wrong going on here. Ohh say like CCP being robbed of real world cashey money. Or instead of tracking email address, since those can just be generated as needed. Perhaps tracking ISP address.
As for the statement of ............

Sable Moran wrote:
There's still nothing wrong with the skill, works exactly as designed and implemented. What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged and greedy at the same time. That combination needs to be punished and there really is no better way to punish someone than going through his/her wallet.


I do not agree completely. Yes the skill works correctly. people are not being greedy. They are trying to get ahead. They are trying to make a profit on someone else's 'apparent mistake'. But the part about "What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged" Is inaccurate in my opinion. For the simple fact that the system, and the way it works, in reference to this loophole, is not really clear to the average player. And unless someone were to stumble across this post. And read through it.... most people would not really know anything about it. I would bet that there are even people that have been cheated. And did not understand why it happened and just dropped it because they did not understand in the first place. So calling most players stupid is poor form, and kind of rude. Because that is what you did, on both accounts.
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#425 - 2014-01-28 10:32:35 UTC
Jacob Cobb wrote:
Or instead of tracking email address, since those can just be generated as needed. Perhaps tracking ISP address.


IP addresses (and MAC's too) can be generated just like email addresses so that wouldn't work either.

Jacob Cobb wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
There's still nothing wrong with the skill, works exactly as designed and implemented. What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged and greedy at the same time. That combination needs to be punished and there really is no better way to punish someone than going through his/her wallet.


I do not agree completely.


Fair enough, difference of opinion is a good thing it induces lively conversations Bear

Jacob Cobb wrote:
Yes the skill works correctly. people are not being greedy. They are trying to get ahead. They are trying to make a profit on someone else's 'apparent mistake'. But the part about "What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged" Is inaccurate in my opinion. For the simple fact that the system, and the way it works, in reference to this loophole, is not really clear to the average player. And unless someone were to stumble across this post. And read through it.... most people would not really know anything about it. I would bet that there are even people that have been cheated. And did not understand why it happened and just dropped it because they did not understand in the first place.


Sounds like if not exactly a dictionary definition but at least a good description of stupidity. All the data is there, it's up to the individuals ability to use that data to his/her advantage.

Jacob Cobb wrote:
So calling most players stupid is poor form, and kind of rude. Because that is what you did, on both accounts.


Well, I did try to use a nice euphemism. Doesn't that count? Also I wouldn't say this applies to 'most players' only to a sizeable portion of them just like in RL.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#426 - 2014-01-28 19:58:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I agree, I've already said my piece - about if an order can't be fulfilled (sold to) it shouldn't show on the market and that the minimum quantity should be more easily visible.
But this really should be addressed sooner rather than later.


Do you realize how much wasted CPU is involved with this solution:

Every time your wallet changes, the game must perform a query to see if you can meet all your market orders. Given the amount of buying and selling a serious trader does in game, I'd think this cpu usage is much, much better spent elsewhere.

There really is only one viable suggestion to all you "cancel the market order" crowd. It is very simple:

For a fee, allow anyone to verify a market order. They simply need to right click on an order and select "verify it with the broker". If the order is legit, the broker tells you. If the order has insufficient funds backing it, the broker tells you, and cancels the order.

Make the fee a reasonable value (1m isk or something), so it is used conservatively.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#427 - 2014-01-28 20:55:43 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
For a fee, allow anyone to verify a market order. They simply need to right click on an order and select "verify it with the broker". If the order is legit, the broker tells you. If the order has insufficient funds backing it, the broker tells you, and cancels the order.

Make the fee a reasonable value (1m isk or something), so it is used conservatively.


I was going to troll this response. But after a moment of thought, I decided that having a "Verify Order" option in the advanced order window might actually work.

There should be a fee for this service with a limit of say 1M isk or 1%, which ever is lower. NPCs don't work for free. (Just almost for free.) Could also have a Trade skill called "Broker Relations" or something similar to reduce the fee per order. And/Or it could be based on one's standings with the station owner.

Since the margin trading scam is based on tricking someone into buying a high price and low volume item on the hope of them selling it back to the fake buy order, being able to verify the buy order before hand should allow one to know for certain if it is legit.

While this will not stop an attentive scammer from canceling the buy order as soon as the item is sold, at least the scam would be executed by an active player rather than through inaccurate/misleading market mechanics.



http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#428 - 2014-02-01 15:18:56 UTC
Bump.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Fotis
Pulsar Wind Labs
#429 - 2014-02-02 11:56:39 UTC
I believe that the margin trading scam has to be fixed by automatic cancelling of unfulfillable buy orders,

I understand that this will produce database load but it's something that has to be done. Your programmers will find the best way to implement it and the actual impact on performance will be minimal
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#430 - 2014-02-02 20:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Your Dad Naked
CCP Rise wrote:
A second possibility, which emerged from the discussion with the CSM, was built around marking orders in the market interface based on whether or not they were placed using margin trading. This would mean that when you place a buy order you would have to decide whether that would be a 'guaranteed' order or not, and then it would be marked (colored or check boxed or something) in the market interface so that people would know whether there was risk involved in trying to fill the order. This has several problems also, including: making legitimate market activity seem shady, making the interface more confusing, adding clicks for people placing orders and also costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams.

If you ask me, none of these are legitimate reasons to hold up enacting this second possibility.

Making legitimate market activity seem shady
- Risk vs Reward is the name of the game. In this case, it would apply to both margin trading buyers and sellers. In it's current state the risk is only towards the buyer.

Making the interface more confusing
- The issue is getting the knowledge out. People will see all these orders of a new color and wonder, "what is that?". As long as they have an outlet to have that answered, it's fine. Tutorial, patch notes and an official EVE article should do the trick. If they are too lazy/dumb to look it up, they should quit EVE and go play WoW.

Adding clicks for people placing orders
- 1 more click. In an activity (trading) that involves dozens of clicks per minute. We'll be okay P.

Costing new players money by steering them away from cheaper orders because of fear of scams
- I disagree that most of the cheapest orders are done through margin trading. Also, risk vs reward. Also, freedom of sandbox has always taken precedence over preservation of newbie ISK.


Please fix marginal trading via the second possibility.


Sable Moran wrote:
There's still nothing wrong with the skill, works exactly as designed and implemented. What's wrong is simply that some people are... shall we say... intellectually challenged and greedy at the same time. That combination needs to be punished and there really is no better way to punish someone than going through his/her wallet.

Could be that.

Could be most people aren't involved in trading and therefore don't learn about margin trading until they get scammed for the first time.

Lol
Your Dad Naked
Doomheim
#431 - 2014-02-02 20:36:12 UTC
double post
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
#432 - 2014-02-08 03:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Imagine that you buy something off the market or contracts, hoping to sell it to a tasty buy order on the market. The buy order is totally "legitimate" (in other words, it's not rigged to fail due to insufficient available funds), but someone manages to fill it before you can.

In this situation, how is the result functionally different than what happens when somebody rigs up a Margin Trading scam? I suggest that you, the person who has suffered this unfortunate circumstance, cannot distinguish between one and the other. A player has no inherent right to be the one who fills a particular buy order, no matter how amazing the profit potential looks to be. You could just as easily be beaten to the punch by somebody else as you could be scammed by some unscrupulous individual.

This comparison also reveals the core component of the Margin Trading scam, which is that you've been psychologically duped into making an excessive financial outlay of your own volition, believing in the certainty of profit. But profit is never certain when you're dealing with buy and sell orders in EVE. This scam depends entirely on one's insufficient knowledge of the market and lack of healthy skepticism. Just as having the Corporation Management skills to run a gigantic alliance does not immediately hand one the keys to the kingdom (and its coffers), the Margin Trading skill does not grant anybody magical powers to siphon ISK from the wallets of other players. One might well say, "But the buy order was right there! I should have been able to fill it!" The same could also be said, however, for any order that somebody else just happened to fill before you could. Should we now institute a rule that says the first person who "sees" the buy order gets to fill it? Perhaps this is something that could be implemented with the Oculus Rift.

So, really, enough with this nonsense about nerfing Margin Trading. It is an extremely useful skill--especially for traders who rely on a relatively slow trickle of buying and selling over a broad area (i.e. players who do regionwide station trading). Why should these players have to suffer just because scam victims chose not to understand the market before investing in items, or chose not to be skeptical of a deal that looked too good to be true?

(Here's a big hint: if the prices don't look right and the buy order has a quantity limit higher than 1, that's a big red flag.)
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#433 - 2014-02-08 07:51:13 UTC
Thomas Hurt wrote:
Automatically cancel any orders where the 'Minimum Buy Volume' * 'Price per unit' is greater than the amount in your wallet


I like this solution, but instead of canceling the order maybe it could get filtered out so that it doesn't show up in the market buy order.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#434 - 2014-02-08 08:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Thomas Hurt wrote:
Automatically cancel any orders where the 'Minimum Buy Volume' * 'Price per unit' is greater than the amount in your wallet


I like this solution, but instead of canceling the order maybe it could get filtered out so that it doesn't show up in the market buy order.
Why exactly? No one but the buyer, is hurt when a buy order fails. Why should the seller need this information?

If anything is required, it is a simple message that tells pilots 'Orders are not guaranteed, buyer beware.'.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#435 - 2014-02-08 09:00:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Nelly Uanos
Just had an idea... didn't read all the 20 pages so sorry if this already have been proposed.

Idea is a trader rating system. (Kinda the same we have for crime watch and also related to the security status.)

Market PVP Pirate

It could go from 10 to -10.

Each time one of your buy order fail because of missing ISK you get a hit to your trader rating. Each time a trade conclude you get some point for your trade rating.

The variance of + or - should be according to the amount of isk going through. So the bigger the scam you make the bigger hit your trader rating take.

Just make sure the negative hit are way bigger than the positive. So people have a hard time getting their status back up.

So let's say when your trader rating go below -2 all your market order will switch to orange background, this will alert people that you've been dealing in shady market operation.

When it reach -5 all your market order will switch to red background, clearly saying you are scamming people.

(The -2 or -5 are arbitrary number I just put up, it's just to show up the base idea.)

Hope you guys like it and that it could be easily implemented software-wise. Big smile
Mag's
Azn Empire
#436 - 2014-02-08 09:06:00 UTC
Nelly Uanos wrote:
Just had an idea... didn't read all the 20 pages so sorry if this already have been proposed.

Idea is a trader rating system. (Kinda the same we have for crime watch and also related to the security status.)

Market PVP Pirate

It could go from 10 to -10.

Each time one of your buy order fail because of missing ISK you get a hit to your trader rating. Each time a trade conclude you get some point for your trade rating.

The variance of + or - should be according to the amount of isk going through. So the bigger the scam you make the bigger hit your trader rating take.

So let's say when your trader rating go below -2 all your market order will switch to orange background, this will alert people that you've been dealing in shady market operation.

When it reach -5 all your market order will switch to red background, clearly saying you are scamming people.

(The -2 or -5 are arbitrary number I just put up, it's just to show up the base idea.)

Hope you guys like it and that it could be easily implemented software-wise. Big smile

As long as those that buy over priced goods, after seeing a buy order for more, also get hit with it. After all, they are far worse, as they do it without really thinking first.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#437 - 2014-02-08 09:09:39 UTC
What?

Why should people seeing a good opportunity get hit too? I don't get it.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#438 - 2014-02-08 09:13:01 UTC
Nelly Uanos wrote:
What?

Why should people seeing a good opportunity get hit too? I don't get it.
What good opportunity? Why do you think people are here? Do you even understand the scam?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Nelly Uanos
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#439 - 2014-02-08 09:49:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nelly Uanos
Yes I know the scam.... and yes I already buyed some items that were cheaper to go resell them 2 jumps away for a better price. Why should I take a hit for that? That's just stupid...

That's what the market UI tell you right now... you see one item selling for less than you can re-sell it = Good opportunity.

Unfortunatly that skill make that opportunity a uncertain business.

My system will not prevent the scam itself... it will just put warning on peoples abusing that system.

It will also allow people to continue stretching their money but they will get a warning when they go too far.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#440 - 2014-02-08 11:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nelly Uanos wrote:
Yes I know the scam.... and yes I already buyed some items that were cheaper to go resell them 2 jumps away for a better price. Why should I take a hit for that? That's just stupid...

That's what the market UI tell you right now... you see one item selling for less than you can re-sell it = Good opportunity.

Unfortunatly that skill make that opportunity a uncertain business.

My system will not prevent the scam itself... it will just put warning on peoples abusing that system.

It will also allow people to continue stretching their money but they will get a warning when they go too far.
Wrong. The scam relies upon people NOT having checked to see if they are paying over the top for an item. It relies upon people thinking a buy order price, is both reliable and the true value of an item. It is NOT the fault of either the Market Trading skill, or the buy order, that someone thinks they are going to make some good ISK, but fail to do their home work first.

If you wish to invest in the market, you need more that one buy order price to deduce the true value of an item. What we have right now, is people thinking they will make a quick buck and will screw over some seller, because they failed to do the checks and balances first. Not only that, but the buyer is already hit with Taxes and gets nothing. The seller doesn't lose a thing. So why should the buyer be hit again, with a silly number metric?

I have made quite a lot of ISK on the markets and have never once, been hit with this scam. Simply because I gather information first, before making an investment. I already know others are trying Market PvP, it's up to me to beat them at their game.

If you want your idea implemented, then it's only fair that those who pay too much for an item, get hit as well. After all, they let greed and the thought of screwing someone over, rule their decisions. But in a game that is PvP centric, it turns out someone out PvP'd them and they got screwed instead.

But let's face it, your idea sucks and wouldn't work. It does not fix the problem here. That problem is greed, lack of knowledge and a failure to understand game mechanics. All of which could be helped with a simple message.

Orders are not guaranteed, buyer beware.

Anyway, CCP were shown the error of their ways and dropped this thread like a stone. It's only those that wish for CCP to hold their hands, that continue to bring it back to page 1.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.