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EVEs mechanism passively against physics

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Stabdealer Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-01-27 05:26:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Stabdealer Tichim
stoicfaux wrote:

Armor won't help with collisions given the masses and speeds involved. Shields are energy, why would they prevent collisions[1]? If you collide with an unshielded/unarmored asteroid and you have no armor or shields remaining, then why do you bounce instead of explode?

tl;dr I cast magic missile at the darkness.

[1] EVE shields cause ships to bounce off of objects. In the Empyrean Age, the Broker sabotages one of a station's shield generator thus allowing a titan to crash into the station and actually damage it.


With an atron(1m mass) moving at 2000m/s, the kinetic energy it can cause is about 2 tJ, which is not a huge number, at EVE's scale
Stabdealer Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2014-01-27 05:44:57 UTC
silens vesica wrote:
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
That's ship's speed and acceleration.

If you can't see what is going wrong, I recommend you to visit this site and do the quiz, funny and educative, and you may find "wow I should have realized that!"
Dude.
1) Don't take yourself so seriously
2) Don't take the game so seriously
3) Don't take Physics so seriously
- and -
4) Push the "I Believe" button - It's the one that tells you "It's all in the script" - The same button that allows engineers to sit through Hollywood action movies without puking their guts out.


Usually people who put 1,2,3,4 in a post are just super-serious on theirown, please don't accuse me for a short posting on EVE-O about changing the game a bit, I seriously apologize to you.
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#43 - 2014-01-27 06:14:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Hal Morsh
The propulsion mods mention it's top speed is limited by the ships mass. I'm also picturing missles with a bunch of small directional thrusters all over it :/ I mean some ammunitions are apparently rocket propelled like artillary shells, and I think advanced railgun ammo. Although most railguns in this game don't even have barrel for anything to exit regardless, they just seem to shoot energy out of solid objects. Unrelated though.

One thing I must bring up is I have argued with others of why ships in this game have such aqward engine placement. Wouldn't they turn in one direction with lopsided engines like that? The awnser I got back is because physics are different in space and it's because they face one direction anyways (no drag). Problem is eve has drag. Just look at the exequror.

I always imagined ships having small thrusters all over the place.. One thing bothering me is how things change directions before they even turn. Just look at orbiting light drones, only explenation there would be microwarp drives dragging them around seemingly regardless of thrusters. The game mass effect worked off something like that.

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/UT-47_Kodiak_Drop_Shuttle
It explains on this page that the ship is flown by a mass effect core, and the thrusters are just directional control. As it would just fall out of the sky without the core. Even larger ships used them for maneuverability, and for FTL (faster than light travel) as well. I think it was also the reactor core at the same time, but don't quote me on it.






Also going to bring up I have heard if you shut off the ship it would explode. I forget if this had to do with the warp core or reactor. Unrelated again.

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?
Stabdealer Tichim
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2014-01-27 06:15:23 UTC
Abdiel Kavash wrote:

1) You are basically complaining that ship models don't have thrusters facing forwards. Some games have them. EVE doesn't. They wouldn't fit with the graphics style of many EVE ships. To do that, every ship in EVE would have to be remodeled from scratch. Thanks, but I'd rather CCP spend money on things that actually affect gameplay. It's easier to imagine that EVE ships are propelled by some mechanism that doesn't exist in our universe, and that can apply thrust in any direction.

Alternatively you could have a more realistic model where a ship stops by turning around and burning retrograde. This would severely affect the maneuverability of both small ships (which need to change directions quickly) and large ships (which take a long time to turn around). Both would have very significant gameplay effects and would make some things nearly impossible (for example, parking your ship at exactly 2,000 m from a titan to be ready to use a jump bridge, without actually running into said titan).

The bridging range could be expanded, for battleships. And it's actually a buff to small ships, since the agility will have more steep effect on the manoeuvrability.


Abdiel Kavash wrote:

2) Very simply, if it worked the way you want it to work, an interceptor chasing after a target would only have to pulse its MWD once, and then could maintain its top speed without using any cap for as long as he wants to burn in a straight line. Ships relying on speed to out-track enemy guns could do the same. This would again be a massive change to how the cap usage works.

I don't see how negative it could be, actually sounds like a nice buff to existing weak mwd hac fits.

Abdiel Kavash wrote:

3) In (1) we already established that EVE ships can apply thrust in any direction. Is it so hard to imagine an autopilot that would automatically want to use this to correct your position after you get bumped? Or, to reverse it, would it improve your enjoyment of the game in any way if you had to just hit ctrl+space every time someone runs into you?

For autopilot, it's just regularly align to the gate, and you can bump them now as well.

I don't often get bumped in the game, if it does happen, usually on undock or a pos, then you are certainly ready to take control instead of letting it be.


Abdiel Kavash wrote:

Yes, but (sane) individuals understand the aspects of both science and fiction in sci-fi. EVE is not in any way "hard" sci-fi, and nobody ever claimed it was or wanted to make it so. EVE is a strategy/combat/economy/social game which happens to have spaceships in it, nobody is calling it a spaceship simulator.

A fictional universe only has to be consistent with itself, it doesn't have to be consistent with our universe. If you state "ships can go above the speed of light, but only up to warp 10", it's fine as long as you don't suddenly have ships going warp 11. If you state "you can't transport through shields", and then you have people transport through shields (and it's obvious it's not a case of using a different shield technology or a different transporter technology), that's an inconsistency.


I do occasionally hear people mark EVE as a (relatively) "hard sci-fi game", and I'm one of the "nobody" who hope it to be.

Consistency issue is a more problematic topic, even fantasy games can often have consistency issues.

Vyl Vit
#45 - 2014-01-27 06:21:32 UTC
So...in all your galavanting around in space (galavanting IS a word, Forum Spell Checker), when was the last time you stopped to refuel? Ever notice the size of the space shuttle's fuel tank...just to fuel those two boosters to get that little space pickup truck into orbit? When was the last time your ship had an engine overhaul, or was repaired for hitting objects...dents, etc.?

You for that matter, oh capsuleer, (capsuleer is SUPPOSED to be a word, EVE Forum Spell Checker), when was the last time you got out of your ship to take a potty break...a shower perhaps...eat dinner?

Suspend disbelief. Enjoy the story. If you brought this up over beers at a pool hall I'd have to shoot you.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
James Nikolas Tesla
Tesla Holdings
#46 - 2014-01-27 06:24:48 UTC
All I know is this game is fun as hell. Nuff said.

CODE is just a bunch of pirates; smart, organized pirates. It doesn't help to rage at them because that is exactly what they want. Dust yourself off and get back on your feet, you don't even have to talk to them.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#47 - 2014-01-27 10:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:

Armor won't help with collisions given the masses and speeds involved. Shields are energy, why would they prevent collisions[1]? If you collide with an unshielded/unarmored asteroid and you have no armor or shields remaining, then why do you bounce instead of explode?

tl;dr I cast magic missile at the darkness.

[1] EVE shields cause ships to bounce off of objects. In the Empyrean Age, the Broker sabotages one of a station's shield generator thus allowing a titan to crash into the station and actually damage it.


With an atron(1m mass) moving at 2000m/s, the kinetic energy it can cause is about 2 tJ, which is not a huge number, at EVE's scale

Nope an Atron moving at that sort of speed is packing a fair bit more mass than 1,000,000 KG, the MWD required to hit 2000m/s has it's own mass penalty of 500,000 KG. Your maths fail to take the mass penalty of any equipment fitted into account.

Realistic physics don't apply in an alternative reality where the rules of physics may or may not be similar, in the case of Eve the universe appears to be full of a liquid.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Billy McCandless
Zacharia Explorations Group
#48 - 2014-01-27 10:22:38 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
When was the last time your ship had an engine overhaul, or was repaired for hitting objects...dents, etc.?


Crew do it

Vyl Vit wrote:
when was the last time you got out of your ship to take a potty break...a shower perhaps...eat dinner?


Pod goo has many uses

Vyl Vit wrote:
If you brought this up over beers at a pool hall I'd have to shoot you.


If I found myself in a pool hall Id shoot myself.

"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal
Hra Neuvosto
Party Cat Enterprises
#49 - 2014-01-27 10:41:42 UTC
hEy guis, how come we hear stuff in space when in space sound dont travel so good

plot hole Cool
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#50 - 2014-01-27 10:51:23 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
...we can not fully stimulate the real world...


I suppose you could... if you had, you know, a whole lot more hands.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#51 - 2014-01-27 11:00:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Hra Neuvosto wrote:
hEy guis, how come we hear stuff in EvE space when in space sound dont travel so good

plot hole Cool


FTFY and sound travels fine in water.

Plus - immersion, good game design, atmosphere, what we would emotionally expect despite knowing the reality, etc.
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#52 - 2014-01-27 11:52:20 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:

People assuming themselves are sci-fi fan, but playing a spaceship game that uses air-resistance physics model, which is hilarious. I hope CCP already have this on their list, after all EVE could be more interesting to players with high-school physics background, I assume they're the majority.


Why don't you play a real Sci-Fi game instead, as it's been proven already that Newtonain physics spaceship games are not fun and leave EvE as the Premier People Simulator, set in a distopian future.

You might know your Physics, but you lack common sense.

Baddest poster ever
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#53 - 2014-01-27 12:35:31 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
...we can not fully stimulate the real world...


I suppose you could... if you had, you know, a whole lot more hands.
oh babe ............. <3

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#54 - 2014-01-27 13:35:20 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
That's ship's speed and acceleration.
2, Afterburners:
Current: Spaceship automatically slow down when afterburner stop working.
In real: Spaceship is moving at the same speed after afterburner was stopped. However, if the speed is decreased by other forces, the spaceship will not regain speed, unless the afterburner is turned on again.

It is the height of scientific hubris to look at the world, see that it doesn't match your understanding and claim that it is the world which is wrong. Rather than pointing out "errors" in the world you may find it more satisfying, more fun, to develop theories which correct for the cognative disconance.

Unless you know all of your initial conditions it is impossible to say what "would" happen. Both the top speed limitation and the deceleration from AB/MWD speed are consistent with physics as currently understood if there is a braking force being applied to the ship.
One potential source for such a braking force might be interstellar Hydrogen which, gathered in sufficient quantities to fuel your ship's reactor by a magnetic scoop, might create sufficient drag to explain the results you experience.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2014-01-27 14:09:44 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:


I didn't try to suggest that "only objects in motion have inertia", if I say sorry then it's not for my mistake but for making you think in this way.

I could be wrong at multiple cases, and you can make all of the people have higher physics degree than me. However it will not change the fact that what I say is wrong or right.
In short, granting yourself a physics PHD and ripping off high-school certificate from me will not automatically make you always correct in physics.


I never said anything about degrees or qualifications. This is the internet. You can claim whatever qualifications you want and I have no reason to believe you. The same applies to me. That's why demonstration of knowledge is more important on the internet than what you claim to be qualified in.

In any case, I have no idea what you were rambling on about here, it just seems like a very haphazard absent minded diversion, but you have yet to demonstrate you know enough about physics to make an applaudable criticism of physics in this game.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Billy McCandless
Zacharia Explorations Group
#56 - 2014-01-27 14:15:19 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
if I say sorry then it's not for my mistake but for making you think in this way.


WE ARE UNWORTHY

Your Majesty

*prostrates before the LIVING GOD*

"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#57 - 2014-01-27 15:03:40 UTC
Stabdealer Tichim wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
This is a fictional fluid universe space submarine game.


Your real life physics don't, wont, and will never apply. As soon as you can accept that, you may enjoy your Eve experience.


If it was what CCP claimed, I would be fine with that

Real life physics do apply in eve, such as when you fire at people they will get damaged, lol


So 3 times a month we get a 10 page memo in General Discussion either from someone who is genuinely smart and needs to show a bunch of internet strangers that he knows real physics, or from someone that searched the forums and continues to rehash worn out ideas?

Lets face it, the mechanics in the game are engineered for simplicity and ease of use. Their likeness to the known laws and theories of our universe should be golf clapped and then we move on.

Is your next thread going to be on how the EvE economy is not a real free-market?
Ritual Union
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2014-01-27 15:19:37 UTC
I'm not sure what's the reason of the OP for making this topic. However, since it's GD let's play. I could ask two questions:


  1. Does Eve obey elementary physics?
  2. Does it make any sense for Eve to obey elementary physics?


To both questions my answer is no. OP, you could add the fact that you can see the lasers beam, you can hear directly the explosions(you could hear them indirectly though), ... to your list. Fact is that science is not sci-fi. If you were to make a game that simulates our experience in space the result will be on one hand a very boring game for most people and on the other hand a very non-intuitive one for all people.

Anyway, if you're interested in science, here is a nice read: Common misconceptions – Warren Siegel page.

...
ISD LackOfFaith
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#59 - 2014-01-27 18:42:28 UTC
Thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD LackOfFaith

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

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I do not respond to Eve Mail or anything other than the forums.
Aurora Fatalis
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2014-01-27 18:51:30 UTC
Based on decelleration rates, EVE's universe is about as viscous as pudding.

Missiles have wings because it helps with the steering through the pudding.

If Chribba told you not to trust him, would you?