Intergalactic Summit

Lord Ardishapur had the right idea on how to deal with uppity slaves. Shame he's dead.

We are all trying to do our best in this conflict. I understand Gaven's concerns and he is just doing his job. He has to deal with the immediate effects of the Elder Fleet invasion, defending our position in the CEWPA warzone, bolstering our internal defenses, preparing for a possible second attack. It's a necessary part of society, and there are similar factions on the Matari side. They didn't exactly ask for a neverending war on their border or the Elder Fleet, they can only take what small gains it may have made and have to pay its enormous costs with their lives, lest we sweep through the warzone and do the same thing. I heard that nearly happened a year ago, that an alliance joined the Amarrian fleet and nearly threw the Matari out of their own space.

The problem is that neither of these two sorts of groups can stop the conflict. It is their job to deal with immediate effects; their hands are too bloody from the work to function as effective diplomats.

That's where people such as myself should come in. It's the task of all of us who aren't involved in the direct confrontation to try and end the conflict, so that PIE and their counterparts in Matari space don't have to pay eternally, with lives and resources, for the Elder Fleet. Clerics like me, especially, have a responsibility to act as suitable, pacifist actors in both spaces, to show at least that facet of our society that does not speak with our lasers. Too often, the narrative becomes a group of racist, imperious overlords versus a group of bone-wearing, ravenous animals. Neither is the case, not even for those fighting in the conflict. Our societies have vast depths of culture that we very often ignore, simply because they aren't the side that we have to present to the front.

Therefore, I think it's important to approach everyone not just as a cleric concerned with conversion, but an Amarrian concerned with peace. Even if I'm not believed by everyone I meet (and when you preach in space where people do not grow up in the faith, trust me, not everyone will give you a fair audience), it's important that I at least demonstrate that we're not the monsters people make us out to be.

People tend to think I'm an anomaly, but most of the members of my corporation are rather good representatives on behalf of the Amarr. Many are involved in precisely the same work, promoting cross-cultural understanding and trying to institute a state of harmony as envisioned in the Pax Amarria. I suppose I'm simply the most vocal of them here on the IGS, but the Societas is involved in quite a bit of work in promoting our society, our faith, and our culture in a less easily-stereotyped light. In essence, we're trying to teach people what Amarr is like for the 95% of us who aren't in the warzone, those who don't rely on lasers in everyday life.

PIE serves a very notable, useful, and respected role in our society. They're to be commended for having taken it up with the dignity and grace that they have. It's not easy to remain noble in a warzone like that, but they've borne that burden in a manner I find most complementary to our Empire. However, they are only one facet of our society. It's important that the rest of us don't agitate the situation and do our best to extend a hand of cooperation through the cluster so that they aren't out there fighting until the end of days. It might take years to repair the damage the Elder Fleet did to our diplomatic relations, but I think a world in which our people do not have to fear death or war from each other is a cause worth expending every fiber of effort towards.

My stated job is to convert Matari to the faith and provide for their spiritual health once they do. However, sometimes, before you can even begin to try to convince someone to believe in God, you need them to believe in you. Usually, that's the harder part.

Well, the short answer to that is, have you ever tried to fight CONCORD ships in our space? Imagine that a third of that fleet was used to essentially wipe out the response fleet in Yulai. Think about that for a second. The size of this fleet and its firepower were simply unimaginable. It made the Burn Jita campaign look like a skirmish. They simply sacrificed ships and bodies of displaced Matari who were living on the fringes until CONCORD was gone.

That was a third of the fleet. The other two-thirds came to us. Given that firepower, it's a testament to Amarrian defenses that we weren't swept completely out of our own system. The fleet was surely big enough and well armed. Instead, we held out.

I think that's an element to Amarrian battle tactics and design that doesn't get much press. We aren't exactly designed to have the most powerful weapons or the best shields. At first, we probably do seem old-fashioned and easy to attack. But where CONCORD failed, we survived against twice that number.

It might not be flashy and some Matari might toast that success, but we suffered far less in human casualties and material losses, and we still have our borders. A fleet twice as strong as necessary to dismantle CONCORD, and our Navy turned them into a glorified border raid.

If anything, I think the blame was too general, and while CONCORD certainly failed in their mission, I think the blame falls on a portion of the Matari who wanted a moral victory and damned the consequences. We've lost far more ships since the CEWPA was signed on the back of it. It wasn't worth it for anyone to have fought that. The Pax Amarria's wisdom shines here. Look at what that invasion has wrought for us, all of us.

Hopefully, it's become more apparent what CONCORD's role is in the peace and why the Pax Amarria is so necessary. But we have to remember that it wasn't the fight the Republic had asked for, and it undid years of Karin Midular's hard work. Remember that her modus operendi was the same as her daughters, build the walls high, carry a big stick, make sure the gate remains open to trade. She made sure the Amarrians knew the consequences of attacking the Republic and made sure that they had a reason to not want to.

As much as it sometimes seems like they're all proud of the attack, I wouldn't be so quick to think that the entirety of the Republic is pleased with that. Matari often present one face to the rest of the cluster and one to each other to dispel rumors of tribal and personal dissonance (e.g., see all the responses that came out after their recent political shift where they suddenly started to talk like Amarrian politicians). Their opinions are often a lot more nuanced than that and they're not an ignorant people on the whole. I wouldn't say at any point that they're all happy about the current state of affairs, the Fleet, or what came after.

The sad fact is, you don't need to have popular support, a lot of manpower, an empire's money, or anyone's approval to build a massive fleet capable of wreaking havoc on the level of the Elder Fleet. You could move to nullsec and build one yourself, given enough time and resources. Our governments simply don't have as much say as we thought in the matter of interstellar politics, to say less among the people themselves.

I think we have to just be realistic. Shakor used the fleet to gain and advantage, turn his enemy back into an enemy, and used Matari fear of us to sweep into power. All this death over shortsighted politics. We've more stake than we think in maintaining peaceful relations.

For once, I agree with you.

The fault wasn't CONCORD, it was Amarrian trust in CONCORD. The difference is key.

Edit: Part of defending ourselves is making sure that we are also making sure that the enemy is also on the defensive and not give them space to build up for another war. A war is a matter of economies as much as strategies. The CEWPA war accomplishes that drain on Matari resources, so it is an acceptable compromise for the time being.

The way the Pax Amarr can be achieved is not through being weak. It is through strength. Being so strong that no one would dare attack us. Heideran understood that, just look at all the effort he put into building up the fleet. Doriam understood that, as we saw in the bleak lands campaign. Karsoth and his cronies either did not understand that or (as seems likely) purposely weakened the Amarrian state's ability to defend itself. That interregnum undid decades of centralization of the Amarrian state.

I saw the insufficient resources given to the 7th fleet by Karsoth. Had those resources been sufficient, then the Matari might have been stopped at the border where they belonged.

Static defences are at best a means of delaying an incursion.
The Elder/Thukker forces were large enough to be able to sweep past the static defences and standing patrols.

The Imperial Navy was already preparing a counterblow, when Lady Sarum as she was at the time, arrived on the scene.

Deployment and size of the mobile forces are legitimate questions. Arguing about having standing forces of that magnitude in every system is pointless.

Maybe you agree, but I know the reasons why you agree, and I do not agree with those reasons.




The Imperial Navy was bogged down into a soon to be total debacle as they fought disorganized, coming one by one on the various battlefields above Mekhios, Kor-Azor, and Halturzhan, until the arrival of Jamyl Sarum with quickly turned the situation.

Ah, but the Empire was not entirely innocent in this.

Even if we leave completely out of the matter the "little" issue of holding the Tribes in slavery, there's the Starkmanir. They were the perfect bait. After their 'discovery', the war was pretty much set.

Had the Minmatar tribes (yes, mind you, the attacking fleet was not of the Republic, but consisted also of the Thukker and other then unaffiliated) stayed their hand, the Starkmanir would have been enslaved or annihilated. That, in turn, would have been a blow that the Republic could not have taken; we would have splintered, and very likely entered a civil war, giving an opening to the Empire to invade.

So I gather the choice was between an illegal attack ourselves and abandoning the Starkmanir, weakening ourselves significantly, and letting Mary start the war. Now, I obviously was there making that choice, but had I been, I cannot say I would have objected.

A trap nicely sprung. Any war is easier to sell to your own if you are no the attacker.

Else

Peace is very possible. Just kneel down before the Empress and God and beg forgiveness. In a few millennia the taint will be washed away and your descendants will be citizens of the Holy Amarr Empire.
It is a sign of the Empress's mercy and God's grace that we even allow subhumans into Paradise at all.

They were already enslaved, and had lived their entire lives in the Empire. They were not citizens of the Republic. What made them any different from any other slave in Amarr that you had to launch an invasion over it?

This is also addressed to Lyn Farel in a way, as a point of information.

It's always difficult to imagine to a decent extent someone else's culture, especially when so radically different, but I will do my best.

But firstly, playing the simple game of realpolitik, one facet of the why is simple: it was possible. Liberating every slave in the empire with such military means simply ventures beyond the realms of possibility. On the other hand of course, why not fight to retrieve the same amount of slaves as the Starkmanir, but simply on a different, more accessible system? Well, there are the cultural reasons, and I promise I'm getting to them, but would retrieving the same amount of slaves, but not the fabled lost 7th have the same effect? Not to mention that the Nefantar came with them, the visible crack the Ammatar pillar of the Empire. In short, in realist terms, which I'm told the Amarr are quite fond of, they were of superb stratiegic value. In fact it is said again and again, why sacrifice so many Minmatar to gain so few? You all have seen it, the casualty rates of the Elder Fleet were absolutely atrocious. Now imagine that all that transpired, the fleet shattered and only a handful of assorted slaves freed. It doesn't ring quite the same does it?

But this still does not explain why the Starkmanir and the Nefantar were so valuable as to warrant such a response does it? Well, if you'll indulge me, I will help. The simple answer is culture.

Leave aside for a minute the usual fluff about the legends of the lost tribe, the sacrifice of the Nefantar etc, and consider the Minmatar as a whole, beyond the just Republic. A freeborn Matari, even a Krusual, is very likely to have been taught the meaning of family from a very young age. Now, it is different to how the Amarr may understand it, please do correct me if I presume, but for the Amarr, the purist interpretation of "family" means lineage, the blood in your veins, also to do with marriage, joining and expanding families, as well as simply immediate family, and importantly ancestors too. It is similar to how the Matari define it, but a little different.

You probably have a vague idea of how Matari society is organised, families within clans, within tribes, within the Matari. To us, these are the different levels of family, different scales as it were. The immediate blood-related family is a part of a clan. That clan is like a family member within a tribe, and that Tribe etc, etc, you get the idea. Family is something of vital importance to Matari culture, and it stretches beyond just flesh and blood and who we meet. It doesn't mean that we treat every single other Matari like siblings we've known since birth. That would be a little bit silly. But it does mean that clans and tribes are committed to each other in a similar way. Now try to imagine if you will, that a member of your immediate family is in mortal danger. Would you not be inclined rather strongly to do everything in your power to save them? Even if such actions put you at serious risk? Even if I'm the end you decided the risk was too great to you and the rest of your family, the emotional wound would scar you forever.

There is an old Vherokior word that sums this up fairly well, unfortunately it does not translate well. The best description is that it means family, but as a verb, rather than an adjective. Bit of an odd dialect, but hey, learn something new every day.

So to put it all together in as simple a way as possible, losing the Starkmanir Tribe, their people, their entire way of life would have been like losing a family member for the other Tribes. The Stakmanir and Nefantar may be far away from us in their way of life, even otherworldly. But to the Matari as a whole, they are still family, and we are thankful indeed they wish to be a part of it. And that is what makes that group, that small group significant.

Oh dear, I seem to be rambling again... That seems like a good place to stop. I hope I have been able to be informative and answer some of the questions you may have had.