Player Features and Ideas Discussion

With the recent and on-going re-balancing of ships and tiers, and new modules and ships proposed, the talk on the forums has, inevitably, centered around which is "primary" in Eve, pvp or pve. Each side has vocal advocates and forum activists abound in each corner. While I can and do understand the desire for propagating one's own view and opinions, I find that some actual research and numbers often help in drawing up at least some constants that can help clarify the picture.

I have been playing this game since 2005 and have run multiple characters.
I have been playing computer games for 30 years.
Let me be clear in saying that I mostly play pve now, simply because that is what my RL allows: Short burts of sporadic playtime.

I have, nonetheless, done pvp, both small gang, alliance wars, blob fests and sov fights in addition to some solo pvp engagements.
I have also lost a ton of ships to fleets, blobs, gate camps and NPCs while managing to give as good as I got, at least some of the time :) Same as most players, I guess.

Although I play less now than I used to, I always seem to gravitate back to Eve and the original promise of the wonder of space(ships). Something about the genre calls to me.

I have been following the last few expansions and the talk on the forums, particularly the Features and Ideas Discussions, as it seems to be the most appropriate place to smell what may be coming on the wind (or lurking around the corner with a huge nerf bat in hand...)

CCP is sometimes critisized for over-emphasizing either pvp or pve, depending on which camp is doing the shouting or trolling on the forums. Thinking back to when I first saw the game, I remember it was not the promise of massive alliance blob fights that drew me in to start playing - it was the chance to fly a spaceship and explore the wonder of space. Granted, it was (and is) a vast and poorly lit place with lots of monsters (and their ganking friends) prowling the spacelanes, but that was part of the lure. It was unknown and dangerous and hence (for a veteran game player), exiting.

So, what is it that Eve players actually do? Pve or pvp? Is there any way to get any honest and unbiased answers to those questions? Aside from the market and industry, which could probably be measured with other metrics than those readily available (to me at least) I was able to review some statistics on ship kills, both faction and player. I am quite certain that the resident CCP economics guru, Dr. Eyjolfur Gudmundsson, can provide more details and analysis but this is enough to at least make several points that I find warrant some further discussion and (hopefully) attention from CCP.

Statistics from: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/stats
Years examined: 2010-2013, inclusive and cumulative (whole years)
Spreadsheet

Looking at this briefly, some things become clear:
1. Pod kills in highsec have tripled between 2012 and 2013
2. Pod kills in low sec have tripled since 2011
3. Pod kills in null sec have doubled since 2011
4. Lowsec ship kills have almost doubled from 2012
5. Ship kills in high/null sec continue to increase
6. WH space remains at roughly half the volume of low sec
7. Faction kills in high sec roughly 2 bil per year
8. Faction kills in null sec appr. 1 bil per year

PvE kills (faction kills) account for over 99% of all kills in Eve, consistently, for the 4 years examined.

The players responsible for these numbers are what you might catagorize as the more 'active' group - the others being those who work the market, do all the industry, mind all the poses, haul, mine and generally run the whole economy. I do not have the numbers to be able to make assumptions on how Eve's player base is split between these groups and I do know that a single subscriber can run multiple characters within multiple groups simultaneously.
Be that as it may.
My point is this: It is clear and obvious that those who engage in shooting and blowing up ships in Eve do so overwhelmingly in pve, and not in pvp.

With this is mind, it is not surprising that those players that focus or spend more time in pve are a little concerned that CCP is focusing too much on the pvp aspect of the game and directing too little effort towards pve gameplay and content. The recent rehash of the Marauders springs to mind and the lackluster delivery of the exploration expansion is another.

I realize that creating and adjusting a player-driven sandbox is easier on development than creating and implementing new actual content. But I do wish CCP would make an effort and at least consider not leaving expansions and balancing solely in the hands of pvp-fanatics. The numbers would suggest that Eve is at least as much about pve as pvp.

Suggestion: Balance new expansions and ship/module iterations with pvp and pve content and focus using a mixed team of people from both orientations.

@OP - Decent argument.

EVE is by far the best game I've ever played. This isn't because of one aspect of it. It's not because I love PVP or I love PVE. It's because when I've done a load of PVP I can go and do some PVE for a change and when I get bored of that I can do some market trading or logistics and when bored of that.... you get the drift.

I do think that CCP are on the right path with the balance passes but I do agree with you in that they are seriously ignoring content. That last abortion of an update to exploration was a travesty. It really is complete balls. It was badly thought out and badly executed. It's not exploration with pve, it's maybe get the site done if the random timer isn't against you and if it is lose the site and tank the incoming dps which is predictable. As long as you can tank it you don't even need guns as the npcs vanish. It's not what I would class as a PVE improvement.

There have been a few good pve updates to the game. Wormholes (and sleepers) were genius. Incursions are fun. But that's been it. All the other PVE content since Incursions have been poor. The alterations to exploration were just that... alterations. There's been no actual new PVE content for a long time and we're seriously in need of something new on that front.

take into account that the nullsec npc kills will mostlikly be cherry picked for high bounties or Chaining rats. so keepign that in context i think nullsec ratters have been makeing much more isk then highsec so they have no right to whine about HIGHSEC NEEDS NERFING!!

to nerf highsec is to nerf the kiddy pool where people make enough isk and gain enough skill points and knowledge to try the shallow end of the adult pool.

now further context.

Missions. level 4.
roughly 10-40m/h depending on the mission chosen. solo.
risk. if you use drones do NOT use MTU. unlimited isk as some people will officer fit their mission ship to speed up the monotiny of mission grinding but most of the time its t2+faction.

incursions.
90m/h to 150m/h . but requires 40 man fleet.
risk. shiny battleships going boom or getting suicide ganked if your TOO shiny (estimated loss 2b+)

Faction warfare (plexing)
Up to 70m/h. solo.
risk? maybe 1m worth of frigate. 2m with cloak. |_| <- tears pls

Exploration
think i was getting 5 to 10m an hour in highsec, no idea on low/null. solo.
risk can be as low as a t1 frigate worth maybe 5m total.

Mining.
highsec "best" ore (scordite) about 10-30m/h depending on ship/fit. solo.
risk, if not in a procuror/skiff you are gonna mostlikly get suicide ganked by extortionists.

low. venture only mostlikly and moons and thats about it.

null. the A.B.Cs and mercoxite and morphite. usually rather "safe" if they are in their own sov space.
no idea on the isk/h but little risk.

ice. cannot comment as the current "whine" is the bots clean out the belt in 10-20 minutes
risk. usually 200m worth of mackinaw to a 2m catalyst

Ratting.
highsec, near compleatly unworth the time taken to lock and shoot unless you get super lucky with a named spawn.
low. so-so the tags were a nice touch.
null.. stupid isk to be made. like 10-30m per battleship and officer loot going for multi billions.

Wormhole space.
no local +++++risk from cloaky gangs. having to set up your own mini inferstructure in the way of PI and POS and fuel logistics and cloaked scanner alts and all that...

mining. isk/h probably same as null.
gas. uncalculated the isk/hour but estimate a full site of 320 and 540 is maybe 200m?
Sleepers.
c1-2 maybe 10 to 40m an hour. solo.
c3 100m/h per person with like 4 to 5 people
c4 maybe 150m/h per person.
c5/6 escalations maybe 300 to 500m/h?

Over the river and through the woods to HOLYCRAPWHYDIDYOUSHOOTGRANDMA...




For isk? Oh... okay then.

You could just go into renter alliance space blow up idiots in ravens and megas and collects their modules....

They are easier to kill than officer rats and sometimes drop shiny loot as well.

You have clearly not actually been to nullsec and have no ******* clue what it is like out there.

Pretty much this. It takes a lot less time and effort to kill npc rats (which spawn predictably, often in large groups which can be easily soloed) than other players (which you need to either track down... or come in large groups, which you need to organize with another large group to fight). Overall kill numbers reflect this disparity.

Let me do some number fudging going the other way. You are in the average 50man fleet, looking for some pew, for every hour your fleet spends active, how many kills are you going to get? I would say less then 50, even 25 would be doing pretty good. Ok, so 25 skills, for 50 player hours played, that works out to 0.5 kills per hour per hour a player spends pvping. Now, your ratting, how many NPC kills does your average ratter get per hour? 50? 100? Lets go really low and say 50. So, that leaves us with the following: Given the same number of players pvping, and ratting, the ratters will generate 100 times more kills.

Conclusion, if ship losses is 1% of npc kills, then equal total player time is spent on PVP and PVE. Really, I would say I overstated the rate of PvP kills, and understated PvE, so the real numbers are probably weighted towards PvP, but you get the idea.

I have to Pay 15€ bucks per month so i dont care if someone dont like how i want to play, period.