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Tears aside was HeD the biggest?

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Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#21 - 2014-01-21 20:45:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Plastic Psycho
Lucas Kell wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Plastic Psycho wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
CCP needs to see more of these big fights before they can fix issues. If they asked for it and offered full reimbursement for losses, it could go a long way to sorting things out

Why should they re-emburse? The node stayed up, and it was Goons' attempt to crash the node/welping their dreds into the bubbles at close range that cost them so badly.

Seems to me that the Goons earned their losses.

I doubt they expected it would be as bad as it was. Dreads were fit for close range, would have been an interesting fight if the could have loaded the grid :)

And if they'd bothered to back their other ships off-grid before welping their dreds, we might have seen it. Of course, dumping drones all over the place wasn't a particularly wise call either.

The results were perfectly predictable.
Yeah, operate a capital fleet without subcap support. Tactical genius right here.

And who do you think was fielding the most drones? Their whole doctrine is based around drone assist.

If they wanted those dreds on-grid, that's what was necessary. Welping their fleet in like they did was not exactly tactical genius either - They seriously didn't want to keep them, did they? Or they'd have done something different - the consequences of lag are well-known.

Considering the balance of numbers, I'm not going to point fingers at PL/N3 - They managed to get there five hours ahead of the competition, and they didn't bog the system down to the point of breaking. From where I sit, there was nothing that happend that was not predictible, *except* CFC failing to crash the node.

Maneuver warfare has retunred to New Eden: Get your fleets in place first, or suffer the consequences.
Rattman
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-01-21 20:57:04 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Also, due to goons unneccesarily deploying extraneous ships instead of what they "supposedly" had on standby
Citation needed.


Troy Magnuss > sweet‚ brо, lоoks lіke I'm gоnna gеt to whore on some titan KMs
Gunner > -DD- has a domi fleet as well?
GeneralGree > coalition i believe has 5-7 full
GeneralGree > domi fleets
Quentin Decker > thats alot of ******* drones
Quentin Decker > dam!!!!!!!!!
GeneralGree > not to mention
GeneralGree > 2 full dread fleets
GeneralGree > supers
Quentin Decker > nice
Gunner > 1500 in HED now
Gunner > so you form up with 1000 caps and you win
Gunner > because this ain't gonna work
Paradocsic > node will crash
GeneralGree > node crash
GeneralGree > we win
GeneralGree > so
GeneralGree > works either way
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#23 - 2014-01-21 22:31:38 UTC
PIlots <> individual subscirbers.

Probably between 600-1000 people actually in this fight.

Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Marsha Mallow
#24 - 2014-01-21 22:46:01 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
They're not when you consider sharded games can only get several hundred people in per server before splitting instances. For fights you start to have severe latency issues at 50+. Tbh even a relatively modest Eve fight at 250 v250 is an outstanding acheivement, it's just one we now take for granted..
That's not really true though. Many MMOs have at least a couple of thousand to a server, sure not all at the same place

Please name these elusive MMOs with several thousand active players per server and more than 500 players per fight (at minimum), with no latency issues. Don't forget the 20-40k other players sitting on the same server(s) in the single sharded universe. Don't start warbling on with your techie jargon, just make a list.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#25 - 2014-01-21 22:57:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lucas Kell wrote:
They need to rewrite core code, and they won't so EVE will not keep up with what it's reputation states it can.


Since you seem to know so much about the codebase, can you quote us some specifics rather than this very general statement.

What exactly needs to be rewritten in the code?
What should it be rewritten too?
How will that alone affect performance?

I've seen the same comment before "CCP need to rewrite the code", but are you really just basing your statement on assumption and a laymans knowledge, or do you really have knowledge and expertise that would provide some credibility to your claim?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2014-01-21 23:10:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Shvak wrote:
Was 6VDT the biggest battle of all time or has HeD eclipsed it?
The startling silence from CCP about what should have had them beaming from ear-to-ear as they gloated after 6VDT is disturbing.
At the apex of the 6VDT battle Erlender tweeted The fleet fight in 6VDT-H tonight is the largest ever in EVE, topping at 4070 pilots so far.
A proud moment indeed.
We were then presented with spreadsheets and other goodies indicating how Tidi worked as planned.

The simple fact is CCP has nothing to gloat about this time. While the node did not crash, even if as claimed in many places there was an attempt to make it crash nothing should have taken away from the fact that this was the biggest clash in Eve history? 4500 ships if I get it right?

Where are the bells and whistles, the backslapping CCP employees regaling us with how it all held together.

And before we go with the whole 3000 ships in system and you derp 1000 domis and then try and warp in 600 dreads. You deliberately tried to crash the node.
No argument from me here, there are plenty of people arguing this or that, I just have a simple question.
If all worked as it should where is the hoopla.
Read this and tell me why N3/PL's moment of triumph means jack s hit to CCP


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/battle-for-6vdt-h/

Something stinks, and me losing a small little space pixel is not it.
HED peaked at like 3600 or something


Considering that theres 3 videos with it above 3900 and I was in there when it broke 4k for a second I'm going to go ahead and tell you how wrong you are, though since you're in SMA I'm not sure what I should expect.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
hedge betts Shiyurida
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-01-21 23:15:15 UTC
Plastic Psycho wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
CCP needs to see more of these big fights before they can fix issues. If they asked for it and offered full reimbursement for losses, it could go a long way to sorting things out

Why should they re-emburse? The node stayed up, and it was Goons' attempt to crash the node/welping their dreds into the bubbles at close range that cost them so badly.

Seems to me that the Goons earned their losses.



i was referring to the future not the past . if CCp asked the blocks to fleet up for a fight and offered full ship reimbursement. they could see in a live test what is going on and work to adjust issues

Pog mo thoin

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-01-22 00:16:39 UTC
Billy McCandless wrote:
Shvak wrote:

Read this and tell me why N3/PL's moment of triumph means jack s hit to CCP


It does nothing for the business, and does nothing for the playerbase.

In short, the game engine bending to breaking point is something that is going to naturally happen, if you have no player-in-system limit.


.. and that will work how ?

A player-in-system limit will simply mean defending a system consists of logging in enough alts to sit in stations or at safe spots in space to prevent any fleet of any size being allowed in.
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#29 - 2014-01-22 01:43:03 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Forum Clone 77777 wrote:
EVE works in 100ms ticks.
There arent any other games that allow as many people to shoot at/fight eachother, at once, like EVE does. Even today, EVE has, by ******* miles, the most people participating in any one fight together.
The only other game I remember off the top of my head that tried to market itself with "huge battles" was age of conan, those devs claimed 100 v 100 was possible. It wasnt though, and even if it was, it wouldnt be anything next to a big battle in EVE.
It might be going in slowmotion, and people all saying CCP are bad for not having fixed it.. Well, as CCP improve, people throw ever more ships into one fight.
So really, its not so much CCPs fault, as it is the players, dont want tidi? Dont go and superpop a system with a bazillion people, gotta wonder how ******** people must be to not get this, its not like its news that throwing so many people into one system will break the node, so why do it?

Since when? Eve's tickrate is 1Hz, so 1 second or 1000ms.
And when you consider how little is actually going on behind the scenes, EVE is really not that spectacular. ...



1st.. We were 900 in system leaving room for you. We had two full fleets waiting to jump I'm when needed. We left you room.

2nd.. Little going on? Are you on drugs? Calculate 4K times what ever interacts with whoever with implants, skills, mods, ammo, charges, damage, resistance, armor, hp, speed, mass, signature and a fuckton more things and you call this "not much"?? No wonder you are crying so much. You're all stupid as there's no other way to explain it.
Macabre Combine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-01-22 01:46:31 UTC
Apocryphal Noise
Close Encounters of the EVE Kind
Goonswarm Federation
#31 - 2014-01-22 02:19:15 UTC
HED wasn't a battle, it was a turkey shoot
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#32 - 2014-01-22 06:47:51 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:

Please name these elusive MMOs with several thousand active players per server and more than 500 players per fight (at minimum), with no latency issues. Don't forget the 20-40k other players sitting on the same server(s) in the single sharded universe. Don't start warbling on with your techie jargon, just make a list.


EVE On-- wait.. HAH! I see what you did there!

Katrina Oniseki
Juicy Pop
Isolated Entropy
#33 - 2014-01-22 07:06:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Juicy Pop
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Because large fleet fights in EvE online are ultimately a lie?

They're not when you consider sharded games can only get several hundred people in per server before splitting instances. For fights you start to have severe latency issues at 50+. Tbh even a relatively modest Eve fight at 250 v250 is an outstanding acheivement, it's just one we now take for granted.

TiDi is a massive improvement over fights like Uemon where people couldn't even login and multiple titans died without loading grid, at points with less than 1500 in system.

The problem is that players outstrip the mechanisms, expectations and technology CCP has, and that's not altogether their fault in a sandbox where people can determine the consequences of their own actions.


Right on. Can't really blame the players for following the logical outcomes of the mechanics in place. CCP has had more than enough time to address the SOV warfare problem and yet, despite all this outcry, it seems as if they still don't understand what the root of the problem is.
Secret Squirrell
Allied Press Intergalactic
#34 - 2014-01-22 07:33:04 UTC
Highest I saw was between somewhere between 3950-4000. While I never saw local exceed 4k, its possible I missed it. Still not the largest battle, but has a pretty good claim to largest cap battle.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#35 - 2014-01-22 08:29:05 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Marsha Mallow wrote:
They're not when you consider sharded games can only get several hundred people in per server before splitting instances. For fights you start to have severe latency issues at 50+. Tbh even a relatively modest Eve fight at 250 v250 is an outstanding acheivement, it's just one we now take for granted..
That's not really true though. Many MMOs have at least a couple of thousand to a server, sure not all at the same place

Please name these elusive MMOs with several thousand active players per server and more than 500 players per fight (at minimum), with no latency issues. Don't forget the 20-40k other players sitting on the same server(s) in the single sharded universe. Don't start warbling on with your techie jargon, just make a list.
I never said same fight, I said the same server. When you jump between systems in EVE, what you are really doing is swapping server, so having someone in Jita while you are in null is the same as playing WoW while there are people on other servers. WoW itself has ~34k players to a shard for example.

Consider that what EVE does is considerably slower than real time and it's really not that much of an accomplishment. Honestly, if the rewrote it with modern day tech, they'd far surpass their current performance, they are just too scared of touching old code.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#36 - 2014-01-22 08:32:22 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They need to rewrite core code, and they won't so EVE will not keep up with what it's reputation states it can.


Since you seem to know so much about the codebase, can you quote us some specifics rather than this very general statement.

What exactly needs to be rewritten in the code?
What should it be rewritten too?
How will that alone affect performance?

I've seen the same comment before "CCP need to rewrite the code", but are you really just basing your statement on assumption and a laymans knowledge, or do you really have knowledge and expertise that would provide some credibility to your claim?
Sure. The core codebase needs to be rewritten, the whole of the server core. It needs to be written in a manner that allows them to balance processes across multiple cores (so it needs to be set up for multithreading rather than single threading as it is). This will affect performance because they will no longer be cramming an entire fight onto a single CPU. They could easily balance it across 2 or 4 or hell, 64 if they really wanted to. At the moment they can't. It's a single CPU and whatever power they can squeeze out of that.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#37 - 2014-01-22 08:37:19 UTC
PinkPanter wrote:
2nd.. Little going on? Are you on drugs? Calculate 4K times what ever interacts with whoever with implants, skills, mods, ammo, charges, damage, resistance, armor, hp, speed, mass, signature and a fuckton more things and you call this "not much"?? No wonder you are crying so much. You're all stupid as there's no other way to explain it.
Yes, little going on. Coumputers can actually handle quite a lot, and handling events for 1s ticks is considerably easier than most modern day games where they handle hundreds of times that. EVE is not really a real time game, and a lot of what you see going on is really client prediction rather than server interaction. When tidi is fully active, your getting at least 10 second ticks.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2014-01-22 12:04:02 UTC
It's really not about having the biggest........
It's about ej...ecting the most.... drones..... ;)

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#39 - 2014-01-22 16:48:42 UTC
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
Plastic Psycho wrote:
hedge betts Shiyurida wrote:
CCP needs to see more of these big fights before they can fix issues. If they asked for it and offered full reimbursement for losses, it could go a long way to sorting things out

Why should they re-emburse? The node stayed up, and it was Goons' attempt to crash the node/welping their dreds into the bubbles at close range that cost them so badly.

Seems to me that the Goons earned their losses.



i was referring to the future not the past . if CCp asked the blocks to fleet up for a fight and offered full ship reimbursement. they could see in a live test what is going on and work to adjust issues

Ah, I see.

Well, the issue is entirely obvious to the most casual of observers: Every time CCP does something to address lag, the various entities bring more people than the system can handle. Lag-fighting designs get imporved, and the players bring yet more people. It's an endless treadmil, and there is exactly zero affordable technological way to prevent it; The big coalitions are literally DOS'ing themselves.

Now, there may be *procedural* ways around it, but those will basically mean that whichever coalition shows up soonest and flood the sytem with pilots will effectively win. Oh, wait - that's just how it is now!

Want to avoid lag? Find a way to convince the big coalitions to bring fewer pilots to the fight.
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#40 - 2014-01-22 16:56:24 UTC
I still do not think anyone answered the OP's question. Just a bunch of whining.

Answer is no HED was not the biggest.

6VDT still holds the record.

R.I.P. Vile Rat