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TiDi - A bandaid solution to a Big Problem

Author
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-12-16 03:58:54 UTC
The entity in each of those fights are just too big. That's where the "problem" spawned and the very reason why it won't go away. The EVE infrastructures was just never designed to handle that kind of numbers. They would probably never admit it but I am pretty sure the designers when drawing the bases of EVE didn't plan for fights to happen between thousands of ships. Super large alliance like GSF were probably not even possible in their wildest dreams and thats not even the worst right now. Instead of fight being fought on a corp/alliance level, they are now done on a coalition level with insanely inflated numbers.

The logistic backbone IRL army have to face is replaced by the server "cap" in EVE. It's the only thing currently limiting how much force you can effectively muster at the same time. Both side of the battle are effectively free to try to send more and more force on this backbone while they do not have to sustain it.

As long as the entity facing each other can bring all the guns at the same place, the bottleneck will always be the server. We obviously can't reduce the size of any of the fighting side. It has gone over the in game implemented system already anyway proving you can't block anything at that point. Adding logistic to make such critical mass of ship night impossible is only most likely something no-one really want to see.

Changing how many people can show up for a fight is a ****** way to fix this but in the end, it's probably the only way to make it work. As long as you enable people to bring as many of their friends as they can, the limit will always be reached.

TLDR : Nerf friends because the server won't handle it anyway... Sad
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-12-16 04:37:42 UTC
Problem with your idea, Frostys: people will abuse the player limit by bringing in a force large enough to reach the limit all at once, blocking out a defense force.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-12-16 04:45:23 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Problem with your idea, Frostys: people will abuse the player limit by bringing in a force large enough to reach the limit all at once, blocking out a defense force.


You have to find a way to block the pipes, not to make a smaller end point. I am also fully aware it's not a good thing to do for the game to limit who can participate in a battle for the game but I really think the entities in action have outgrown the sandbox we have.
K'Po
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2013-12-23 23:30:52 UTC  |  Edited by: K'Po
Anthar Thebess wrote:
I suggested long time ago that you have to wait the difference between TIDI/Normal Time - to join the fight.
This is 1 timer and it is easily for ccp to manage it without any big load.

For example TIDI is jumping 1-20% and difference between TIDI system rest of eve is 20 minutes.
You arrive at the gate to this system/ use JB / Titan etc and you get nice prompt.

"You will have to wait 20min to join this fight."
When you click Yes - you get perma cloack and have to wait 20min , or you click no - and go back.

When at some point of battle tidi is gone - timer gets a reset, and all waiting people jump in in perma cloack until they move.

Edit:
One of other topic how to limit TIDI.
People from bloob fights know how things go messy, when sentry drones begin to shoot.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3921265#post3921265


This has been so far the best, non-restrictive solution for the problem!

The problem I have with TIDI from nullsec perspective is: let's say a titan pilot fails and jumps to a hostile system instead of bridging. Hostiles of course ping and pile up to kill it and system starts to get heavy TIDI. All the pilots warping to the tackled titan start to slow down in real time.

This gives more time to the failed titan's friends to form up in a TIDI free system, maybe even do couple of bridges while the hostiles are still stuck in TIDI warp to the titan. When they finally land to the titan, the titan's friends are already bridging in to rescue the titan, only because it took you forever just to warp to it due TIDI.

Anthar's suggestion would totally eliminate this advantage the people who made the mistake in the first place shouldn't have, just because the hostiles were affected by a crippling game-mechanic. It would also enforce proper planning of troop deployment instead of constantly reshipping from 30 jumps away every time you die, because you can't just rejoin the fight like that.
EI Digin
irc.zulusquad.org
#105 - 2014-01-18 18:52:21 UTC
HED-GP anyone?
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#106 - 2014-01-18 19:47:51 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
The reason why this is a problem is because 90% of the people are spineless clowns who would rather hide in numbers than actually have some backbone and self respect, they're grind bears. Don't blame EVE or CCP for the massive ****** coalitions.


I bet you believe in eHonour as well don't you.
Wolf Kruol
Suicide Squad Gamma
#107 - 2014-01-18 19:51:55 UTC
Agreed with OP

“If you're very very stupid? How can you possibly realize you're very very stupid?

You have to be relatively intelligent to realize how stupid you really are!”

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2014-01-18 20:29:39 UTC
I think there are a number of ways to limit engagements:

1. Warpdrives create x distance wide field around a ship that affects an attribute. 2 ships within each others fields its something along the lines of 0.00001%, once you start getting to 100 ships it gets to 1.0%, 200 maybe 5% until its reaches max at 90%. These fields interfere with whatever attribute. If you have a situation where 2000 ships are orbiting 1 pos all inside each others fields of like we did in fountain they may be doing 90% less damage, or 90% less cap recharge or something along those lines.

So a fleet turning up with 1000 ships gets a 90% reduction or increase in something bad, while an enemy fleet that only brings 300, gets a 20% reduction. The smaller fleet has an advantage even though they're outnumbered.

2. Another way would be a module that acts similarly to the cap battery, instead of reflecting neuting however it works with hardeners, taking a small percentage of incoming energy from weapons damage, absorbing it and adding to shield resistance. If 10 ships are shooting at the target ship it takes 0.1% of the incoming damage and increases resist by 0.1%, as damage is increased that % rises to a point that its better to split target fire or not add ships than to focus fire and add more ships.

They're just a number of ideas, I'm sure there are plenty and probably better ones too. They need to do something, I can't even log into the game atm lol.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Ticondrius
Void Regulation
#109 - 2014-01-18 22:24:47 UTC
You're all talking about how to raise the performance limit, or artificially push the size of a fleet down. You forget that there are hard set-in-stone laws at work here that no amount of hardware, reinforcing, or whining can fix.

1. Given space, anything that occupies that space, given infinite time, will expand to fill ALL available space. When's the last time you had to uninstall or delete something to install something else on your PC? When's the last time you were stuck in a traffic jam on a road that was barely even used when your parents used to take you to school by that route? If we make it possible to have larger fleets, there will be larger fleets...and larger fleets...and larger fleets...until we're right here again.

2. The one thing that hasn't truly changed in over 10 years is the quantity and VALUE of 0.0 space. Sure, we've got wormholes. We've also got a few regions (drones, dark rise) that've been added over the years. I'm not talking about this. I'm talking about the blatant, stark naked, brutal addition of another 10,000 star systems on the outside of existing 0.0 space. Why? Let me explain...

In the beginning, there was space. A LOT of space. It's no exaggeration that one could fly around for days and encounter no one in 0.0. A newbie could go to HED and happily mine ore and haul it the few jumps back to Agil. How was this possible?

First, density. There simply was not enough of anyone to coalesce into any sort of unit to claim and hold space. Indeed, the early alliances may have been named for the regions they claimed, but the truth was few managed to hold more than 5 or 6 star systems. Many held just the 1 star system. After all, many Alliances then were little bigger than a medium corporation today.

The second cause is futility. Trying to keep neutrals, or even reds, out of an area of space was incredibly hard. Often impossible, and a pointless exercise.

I challenge you, CCP. Add 10,000, or more, new 0.0 star systems outside of our current ring of 0.0. BEFORE you finish this new player-built stargate initiative. The sandbox has become too small, and there is too little of value out in 0.0 to fight for.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2014-01-18 23:26:18 UTC
they should add "pirate empire space" at the fringes of New Eden, increasing the number of systems available and giving players a new type of space to explore, with a defense different from and less ultimate than CONCORD, with safe passage requiring increasingly greater standings with the resident pirate faction the deeper you go. This could give incentive for carebears to give up empire standings to gain pirate standings, allow new ways to get pirate loyalty points and access pirate faction items, and maybe even offer a step between highsec and lowsec for beginning PVPers and solo explorers who want a bit more danger but not too much. The nullsec alliances sitting between pirate empire and naval empire would be asked to provide trade transportation services across nullsec, and could stand to make money from that, or possibly make money and a reputation by stealing from traders. Then there could be pirate agents in space in destructible ships that would respawn after enough time, so players friendly to the pirate could go there for missions or to defend the NPC, and some might even go there to be defended by the NPC.

Howabout it?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Zappity
Kurved Trading
#111 - 2014-01-19 01:19:21 UTC
I don't see any new mechanics focusing on NPC interaction or control of space. Rubicon and all that...

Player-built gates and new systems could be of some help to sov problems if done right.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Erufen Rito
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2014-01-19 01:29:43 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
Kharamete wrote:
Pre-Tidi a big fight was 1200 people in local. Pre-tidi that crashed the node.

Current situation is 1500-4000 in local with extreme tidi plus possible node-crash.

It's always been thus. When CCP increase the capacity of a system, the player base crash the capacity with more people.

If in four years time CCP triples or quadruples the capacity, players will pile in five or six times as many.



Been in 0.0 lately?
Try undocking 100 people at the same time, massive tidi, something that didn't used to be a problem. Run 100 man gang thru some gates to a fight and watch the tidi build with each jump.
CCP decided that Tidi was "good enough" and started working on the graphics. The problem with that is, shiny pictures require more time to generate. Jita used to handle 2700, they lowered it to 2k, same reason.

Tidi is also not the great balancer that CCP would have you believe either.
I had two alts in that Black legion Super welp, the one in a Dread could not cycle the siege module for the entire fight. My other character in a subcap ran slow, but all the modules actually cycled, at the expected time based on the tidi.

Tidi is a temporary fix, the problem is, at the pace CCP works, that could be years before they come up with something better.

In order to be involved with Sov warfare now, you must have no life, because any fight could turn into a 10 hour yawn fest

Except that shiny graphics are generated client side. Just to be clear, there isn't a single server that runs the game the way you see it on your machine.

This is as nice as I get. Best quote ever https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4137165#post4137165

trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#113 - 2014-01-19 01:49:05 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Kharamete wrote:
Pre-Tidi a big fight was 1200 people in local. Pre-tidi that crashed the node.

Current situation is 1500-4000 in local with extreme tidi plus possible node-crash.

It's always been thus. When CCP increase the capacity of a system, the player base crash the capacity with more people.

If in four years time CCP triples or quadruples the capacity, players will pile in five or six times as many.


You don't know what you're talking about.
But that's hardly surprising.


I will point out that many peopel don't go to these fights because of the massive lag/tdi/glitches. These people will start going if servers get beefed up, which causes more TiDi/lag/glitches.
Ivan Krividus
Gamma Tech INC
sTHE EXPANSEs
#114 - 2014-01-19 02:49:59 UTC
oh not this again