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Incursion tweak

Author
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-01-18 09:52:18 UTC
Problem (?): Incursion sites are heavily farmed in high sec
CCPs provided solution: Kill the mom to stop farming.
CCPs provided incentive: Double site payout, loot drop.

Double site payout is too small to be meaningful. HS Moms aren't killed for the payout, they are killed out of spite, or to control spawn timers.
The loot is most often not worth much, even when a nightmare BPC drops, that is worth less than a billion, and that only amounts to 25 million per person in a 40 person fleet, ie, less than the payout for 1 HS site. Very very very rarely, its a shadow BPC, which could potentially double the payout.

Basically, I think we need more incentive to kill the mom. A simple buff to site payout is inelegant, and would be very hard to balance to keep the ISK printing from being to high, yet still attractive relative to farming sites.

So, a non-ISK print incentive: Faction standing gains.
Kill a Mom in Amarr space - gain Amarr faction standing (with no derived standings toward others, all faction dislike sansha, so Minmatar shouldn't get mad at you for killing a mom)
Perhaps some sec status gain too.
But again - ONLY for killing the MOM, not for running normal sites.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#2 - 2014-01-18 12:42:46 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Problem (?): Incursion sites are heavily farmed in high sec
CCPs provided solution: Kill the mom to stop farming.
CCPs provided incentive: Double site payout, loot drop.

Double site payout is too small to be meaningful. HS Moms aren't killed for the payout, they are killed out of spite, or to control spawn timers.
The loot is most often not worth much, even when a nightmare BPC drops, that is worth less than a billion, and that only amounts to 25 million per person in a 40 person fleet, ie, less than the payout for 1 HS site. Very very very rarely, its a shadow BPC, which could potentially double the payout.

Basically, I think we need more incentive to kill the mom. A simple buff to site payout is inelegant, and would be very hard to balance to keep the ISK printing from being to high, yet still attractive relative to farming sites.

So, a non-ISK print incentive: Faction standing gains.
Kill a Mom in Amarr space - gain Amarr faction standing (with no derived standings toward others, all faction dislike sansha, so Minmatar shouldn't get mad at you for killing a mom)
Perhaps some sec status gain too.
But again - ONLY for killing the MOM, not for running normal sites.

the "loot drop" is only a CHANCE in lowsec and no one will fly in low unless its a derpsec alliance, same for nullsec incursions.
and the payouts scale for the risk and let us not forget that the revenant is a 100bill isk hull bpc or something stupid like that so no, no changes at all. as for risk in highsec.. people fly 2.5 to 5bill hulls, and they do get popped every so often so its got a nice loss ratio vs time taken to gain that isk back.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2014-01-18 13:21:41 UTC
Did you even read the post you responded to?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-01-18 13:28:27 UTC
I think the payout for incursion vanguard sites in highsec should be reduced by 75%. I haven't run any of the other incursion stuff but vanguards pay WAY too much. At one quarter of the payout, they would still be paying a lot more than any other highsec PVE activity.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-01-18 13:38:04 UTC
That would pretty much kill incursions.

Who would sit around for some time trying to organize a fleet, gather their shiny hulls in a location visible to everyone (ie incursion constellations) including gankers, run sites where if the logi suck you die, all for payouts on par with lvl 4s.

Everytime you undock in EVE, you are at risk. There were quite a few gankers in the last incursion system I was in, I saw a tripple officer web Vindi get taken down, and another deadspace+ faction vindi and an officer gunned NM taken down.

Incursion particupation plumetted and many groups dissolved after the last nerf (particularly the VG focused communities).

VG sites pay less than HQ sites in terms of ISK/hour, but of course, the risk due to NPCs is lower - but the fits are just as shiny and even less tanky.

Gone are the OTA train days of a D D D -done kill order. Most people I fly with vastly prefer to run HQs.


IMO, All we need, is added incentive to pop the mom.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-01-18 13:39:59 UTC
No. Highsec incursion payout needs a dramatic reduction in payout. If the payout is not worth the risk, reduce the incoming DPS. I'm all for making highsec PVE easier as long as the payout is reduced. Highsec pays too much.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2014-01-18 13:46:59 UTC
that would just kill the group PvE high sec content.
It would also indirectly nerf low sec PvP, as many people I fly with run incursions to fund low sec roams and such.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-01-18 13:49:07 UTC
maybe lowsec incursions should have good pay while being something that can be run with ships people are willing to fly in lowsec.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-01-18 14:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Verity Sovereign
Funny, I was in a fleet that got a Revanant BPC a few weeks ago... Lost quite a few command ships, but it was worth it

Its only worth it as long as the Rev BPC commands such a high price.

If people run low sec mom sites more often... then the Rev's price will be set by its utility, not rarity...

And considering it does less DPS than a Nyx.... that utlity isn't much....
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2014-01-18 17:31:37 UTC
They should make one or more capital ship components that are unique to the Revenant, then make BPCs for those drop commonly from incursion mothership sites, while the Revenant BPC should be rarer.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#11 - 2014-01-18 17:32:42 UTC
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Funny, I was in a fleet that got a Revanant BPC a few weeks ago... Lost quite a few command ships, but it was worth it

Its only worth it as long as the Rev BPC commands such a high price.

If people run low sec mom sites more often... then the Rev's price will be set by its utility, not rarity...

And considering it does less DPS than a Nyx.... that utlity isn't much....



I used to run lowsec incursions with the CFC incursion group. We'd lose MAYBE one battleship.

It's really, really easy to run incursion sites in PVP ships with zero losses. I do not understand how you can lose multiple command ships and consider it worth it.

Or lose multiple command ships at all. Did you get dropped or something?
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-01-18 17:34:40 UTC
They were probably trying to do it with the minimum number of ship they could get away with, to increase individual profit.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Dave Stark
#13 - 2014-01-18 18:52:43 UTC
unless the mom pays out a few billion, then there's no reason not to farm the incursion for all it's worth, and even then it'd probably still be better to farm an incursion for all it's worth and then pop the mom rather than popping it instantly.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-01-18 19:34:07 UTC
people would pop the mom faster if it paid better in relation to the rest of the sites, and if its value decreased as sites were run.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2014-01-18 19:42:10 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Verity Sovereign wrote:
Funny, I was in a fleet that got a Revanant BPC a few weeks ago... Lost quite a few command ships, but it was worth it

Its only worth it as long as the Rev BPC commands such a high price.

If people run low sec mom sites more often... then the Rev's price will be set by its utility, not rarity...

And considering it does less DPS than a Nyx.... that utlity isn't much....



I used to run lowsec incursions with the CFC incursion group. We'd lose MAYBE one battleship.

It's really, really easy to run incursion sites in PVP ships with zero losses. I do not understand how you can lose multiple command ships and consider it worth it.

Or lose multiple command ships at all. Did you get dropped or something?



Fleet doctrine was logi, HACs, and CSs, had trouble recruiting sufficient numbers.
I think 2 or 3 stragglers got picked off just going there, and a couple more were picked off on the way back
In the site, we were harassed by some ships that kept warping off... But when a 200 billion ISK rev BPC drops, you can replace quite a few command ships, no?

The payout from the drop was still ~100x the losses...

But this is not the point, its simply a suggestion to reduce high sec incursion farming by a non-ISK/faction gear incentive to pop the mom
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2014-01-18 19:54:47 UTC
Have you actually found a buyer though? The rev is as good as it looks.


BUT ANYWAY. Remove highsec incursions entirely.
Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2014-01-18 20:01:16 UTC
Well, I'm rather low on the totem pole in the group, so to speak, (so its certainly not *me* selling it), but as far as I know, no, not sold yet.

If you remove high sec incursions, then remove null sec as well, and make them a purely low sec thing
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2014-01-18 20:23:37 UTC
Fine with me, nobody runs the nullsec ones either.
Jasmine Assasin
The Holy Rollers
#19 - 2014-01-18 20:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jasmine Assasin
If you don't suck you can already pull in about the same ISK/hr doing L4s as doing VGs unless the fleet is pure shiny w/ an FC that isn't crap. I'd say the average VG site time is somewhere around five and half minutes. Add in other BS time and TBH you might get 100m an hour doing VGs. I know for a fact that a hardcore L4 runner could pull that income.

I also happen to know that you can make more in low/null so obviously the income disparity isn't what's keeping people in hisec...

I would also like to add, I play this game because I have access to hisec incursions. Without them I'm out of EVE...And I'm not the only one. Of course maybe you want to make EVE more "exclusive" for yourself? Not sure that's healthy but if the idea helps you sleep at night go for it.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#20 - 2014-01-18 21:41:17 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Fine with me, nobody runs the nullsec ones either.


Except when they have to because it is in a vital area. I love the cooperative PVE aspect of Incursions.

Rather than nerfing incursions, they should utterly gut mission-running, and make incursion running a major part of the new player experience. There should be incursions designed for players two weeks old to run in T1 frigates that pay more than level 2 missions. There should be incursion sites for two-month old T1 cruiser pilots. There should be some way to encourage new players to work together and meet other players. That will promote retention.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

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