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Webbing freighter for instawarp
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Sarah Aeskiras
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-01-14 16:11:01 UTC
When reading the slightly hilarious post about the supposedly 25B freighter being bumped for an hour then ganked in the C&P forum I saw several people mention webbing the freighter to get instawarp as soon as you uncloak.

Can you really do this instantly after uncloaking? I web my alts freighter frequently when just trying to turn something around faster. But when I web my freighter too quickly after uncloaking it seems like it bugs or something and doesn't work right. I have webbed the freighter before immediately after uncloaking and it made it not warp at all. I've waited longer than the amount of time it would take for the freighter to just warp by itself. I've had to turn off the webs and let the freighter get to warp by itself because at that point if I would just re-web it, it would just mess up again. If I wait about 3-5 seconds after uncloaking (while the freighter is starting warp) to web, it works perfect and it get instawarp pretty much as soon as the webs hit every time. If I do it too fast though, I end up spending like 2-3 minutes getting my freighter to warp.

Is this something everyone else experiences or what? Everyone else on the forums talks like you can just web immediately after uncloak and leave practically no chance of being targeted. I always have to wait at least a few seconds or webbing just wont work.
Baali Tekitsu
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#2 - 2014-01-14 17:09:31 UTC
If you take 90% webs it works insta.

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Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2014-01-14 17:30:31 UTC
I think - but I'm not sure - that you've got to build up at least some speed, so that when the web hits, your max speed gets chopped enough that your current speed hits the 75%-of-max plateau to enter warp. Haven't really experimented, but it might be doable within one or two server ticks with a high-powered web or a series of webs...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Sarah Aeskiras
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-01-14 17:42:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Sarah Aeskiras
Marc Callan wrote:
I think - but I'm not sure - that you've got to build up at least some speed, so that when the web hits, your max speed gets chopped enough that your current speed hits the 75%-of-max plateau to enter warp. Haven't really experimented, but it might be doable within one or two server ticks with a high-powered web or a series of webs...


That is exactly how you get instawarp... but I don't know why webbing before this point would increase warp time so drastically unless it really was a bug. Even with 2x 50% tech 1 webs it makes a freighters speed to warp around 15 m/s. I'm pretty sure webs are only supposed to affect velocity, not acceleration, so you should still reach that 15 m/s in a matter of seconds even with 50% webs. When I've done it too quickly, I have literally waited longer than it would take for the freighter to warp by itself and it still wouldn't warp.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2014-01-14 19:21:41 UTC
Sarah Aeskiras wrote:
Marc Callan wrote:
I think - but I'm not sure - that you've got to build up at least some speed, so that when the web hits, your max speed gets chopped enough that your current speed hits the 75%-of-max plateau to enter warp. Haven't really experimented, but it might be doable within one or two server ticks with a high-powered web or a series of webs...


That is exactly how you get instawarp... but I don't know why webbing before this point would increase warp time so drastically unless it really was a bug. Even with 2x 50% tech 1 webs it makes a freighters speed to warp around 15 m/s. I'm pretty sure webs are only supposed to affect velocity, not acceleration, so you should still reach that 15 m/s in a matter of seconds even with 50% webs. When I've done it too quickly, I have literally waited longer than it would take for the freighter to warp by itself and it still wouldn't warp.


Well, if you're at a standstill when the webs hit you, it slows down your maximum speed, but it also slows down your acceleration, so you're taking just as long to get to warp speed as you would if there weren't any webs involved at all. If I understand the mechanics right...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2014-01-14 20:33:03 UTC

To warp, you need to be moving towards your destination (aligned) at 75% of your max velocity.

A freighter has a max velocity around 100 m/s.

One 60% web reduces their max velocity to 100 m/s * ( 1 - .6) = 40.0 m/s.
Two 60% webs reduces their max velocity to 40 m/s * ( 1 - .6 * .87) = 19.1 m/s.
Three 60% webs reduces their max velcoity to 19.1 m/s * ( 1 - .6 * .57) = 12.6 m/s.

Using one web, the freighter needs to be going 75% of 40 m/s = 30 m/s to instantly warp upon webbing.
Using two webs, the freighter need to be going 75% of 19.1 m/s = 14.4 m/s to instantly warp upon webbing.
Using three webs, the freighter needs to be going 75% of 12.6 m/s = 9.5 m/s to instantly warp upon webbing.

90% webs work much better, such that the webbed ship only needs to be traveling 7.5 m/s with one web, or 2 m/s with two webs.

It is important that the freighter starts from zero velocity when warping to their destination with the above numbers. A freighter undocking will need to align to their destination as well as reach the 75% max velocity, and moving ships generally take longer to align as they often decelerate and then accelerate.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-01-15 01:54:43 UTC
I use this method regularly when tooling around in a freighter or jump freighter in potentially hostile situations, and it works like a charm. I use a triple faction web fit web-bonused ship (rapier or huginn) and if my freighter has started its align-warp before I lock-web it the second web doesn’t even come into play … target-lock is lost as the freighter virtually instantly warps away.

I have also, however, lost a recon doing this … because I forgot about hisec restrictions on who can aggro whom and got concorded for webbing my own freighter.

I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
Kat Bandeis
Trinity Industries Corp.
#8 - 2014-01-16 23:20:37 UTC
I've never tried this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but--- for the webbing trick to work, your freighter has to be ALIGNED already, irrespective of current speed? Webbing an unaligned freighter that just dropped gate cloak won't really do anything because it isn't aligned at it's 75% YET? (And yes, I know the direction it's facing means nothing) Not sure I understand the point at which the webbing is taken into account to get that "insta" effect...
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2014-01-17 00:52:09 UTC
Kat Bandeis wrote:
I've never tried this, so correct me if I'm wrong, but--- for the webbing trick to work, your freighter has to be ALIGNED already, irrespective of current speed? Webbing an unaligned freighter that just dropped gate cloak won't really do anything because it isn't aligned at it's 75% YET? (And yes, I know the direction it's facing means nothing) Not sure I understand the point at which the webbing is taken into account to get that "insta" effect...


You will immediately warp as soon as you hit 75% max velocity in the direction of the thing you're trying to warp to.

When you come off of gate cloak, you are stationary. You then immediately start accelerating in the direction of where you're warping. Say you're at 30% of your max velocity, and that number happens to be 30 m/s (your max speed is thus 100 m/s). You are then hit by a stasis webifier. Your max speed reduces to 40 m/s, but your current speed remains unchanged at 30 m/s. 30 is 75% of your new max velocity, so you will warp.
Mnemosyne Gloob
#10 - 2014-01-17 05:45:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Mnemosyne Gloob
Kat Bandeis wrote:
for the webbing trick to work, your freighter has to be ALIGNED already, irrespective of current speed? Webbing an unaligned freighter that just dropped gate cloak won't really do anything because it isn't aligned at it's 75% YET?


The whole 'alignment' issue is a bit wonky imo. Basically you can forget the visual representation of it entirely (big ships even sorta warp a bit sideways mostly without doing any webbing).

As others have said, what is important when webbing ships into warp is that they have zero initial velocity. It won't really work when undocking, for instance.

Just imagine your speed as vectors in space. If you sit still and press the 'align' button (or warp), your ship will only aquire a velocity vector pointing to where you want to go. If you undock, you have a vector pointing out from station undock - and then one that points to where you want to go, when you hit the warp button. First one decreases, second one increases. I don't know when a ship starts to actually warp in this case ... presumably when the combined vector reaches a certain threshold that can be described as 'pointing to destination well enough'.
Penn Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-01-17 13:48:33 UTC
Is this doable in high sec also?
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#12 - 2014-01-17 20:15:39 UTC
Penn Koskanaiken wrote:
Is this doable in high sec also?


Yes.

Make sure your in the same corp....

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2014-01-17 21:58:37 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Penn Koskanaiken wrote:
Is this doable in high sec also?


Yes.

Make sure your in the same corp....


Or same fleet I believe. But not sure.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#14 - 2014-01-17 22:18:44 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Penn Koskanaiken wrote:
Is this doable in high sec also?


Yes.

Make sure your in the same corp....


Or same fleet I believe. But not sure.

Fleets do not affect aggression mechanics at all.

It is same corp.
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
#15 - 2014-01-22 17:53:41 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Froggy Storm wrote:
Leto Thule wrote:
Penn Koskanaiken wrote:
Is this doable in high sec also?


Yes.

Make sure your in the same corp....


Or same fleet I believe. But not sure.

Fleets do not affect aggression mechanics at all.

It is same corp.


Not same alliance either. Corp only. Or accept a duel.

No good deed goes unpunished
Eliram Kahoudi
Big Fluffy Bunnies
#16 - 2014-01-22 22:08:56 UTC
its also worth mentioning this pretty much only works on gates. not stations or the like.

has something to do with the align and speed. but ive done this alot with 3 webs. i have never gotten it to work after undocking.
Marc Callan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-01-22 22:13:03 UTC
Yeah, it's pretty much for when you start from a standstill, then build up a bit of velocity in the direction of your warp. You get a full-speed velocity vector at an undock, and you've got to either come around in a wide arc and fully shed your undock vector, or come to a full stop and then start up again in your warp direction...

"We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be." - Kurt Vonnegurt
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#18 - 2014-01-22 23:33:13 UTC
Mnemosyne Gloob wrote:
Kat Bandeis wrote:
for the webbing trick to work, your freighter has to be ALIGNED already, irrespective of current speed? Webbing an unaligned freighter that just dropped gate cloak won't really do anything because it isn't aligned at it's 75% YET?


The whole 'alignment' issue is a bit wonky imo. Basically you can forget the visual representation of it entirely (big ships even sorta warp a bit sideways mostly without doing any webbing).

As others have said, what is important when webbing ships into warp is that they have zero initial velocity. It won't really work when undocking, for instance.

Just imagine your speed as vectors in space. If you sit still and press the 'align' button (or warp), your ship will only aquire a velocity vector pointing to where you want to go. If you undock, you have a vector pointing out from station undock - and then one that points to where you want to go, when you hit the warp button. First one decreases, second one increases. I don't know when a ship starts to actually warp in this case ... presumably when the combined vector reaches a certain threshold that can be described as 'pointing to destination well enough'.


Something to note about undocking: When you undock in any ship, you will be doing well over 100% of your max velocity. If you make a bookmark in space following the "undock" alignment (and it is farther than 150 km's from the undock), you can warp to it right after undocking. Since you undock at max velocity already aligned towards the bookmark, you will instantly warp to that spot. This is called an insta-undock bookmark, and is very handy for a variety of reasons:

1.) When properly made, even a freighter can often (not always) warp away from station before even a fast locking inty can tackle it. This is very handy in escaping station camps in lowsec & highsec!

2.) When undocking from busy stations like the Jita or Amarr Trade hub, this allows you to get away from the traffic jam that happens on the station!

3.) In mission hubs, these allow you to move your ship off station before suicide gankers can scan you and/or blap your ship (although they might then attack you at a gate).

Note, when you undock, you don't always undock in the exact same alignment. There is a 15% variation, so keep that in mind when making your undock bookmarks, as it means you don't always instantly warp off.