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CCP - Falcons - Still massively overpowered!
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Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#81 - 2011-11-24 15:55:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Knight
totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis

SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar

Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(
kyrv
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#82 - 2011-11-24 15:55:33 UTC
Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.
Lili Lu
#83 - 2011-11-24 15:56:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Some good discussion here . .

outside the usual rants and counter rant/denials (my favorite being the but it has the tank of a wet paperbag and is totally unique in that since other recons are loaded with tank Roll) Ok end of my rant. . .

Realistically I don't see CCP nerfing ecm. They've tried multiple times, failed to the point of each time slipping in countervailing simultaneous buffs to ecm or ecm boats. They simply have not figured out a way to get rid of the most infuriating mechanic in the game while leaving Caldari with a useful ew substitute. So the only possibility I see is new ways to counter the effect introduced to the game.

They could buff ECCM to give a better resistance to being jammed. It should be a whole number resist imo so that it might make sense to fit on a small ship that presently gains no meaningful benefit from the % boost of an eccm in relation to the typical jam strength of an ecm boat. Yes you would still have to sacrifice a slot for something with no other meaningful benefit.

Or they could add a sensor strength script for sensor boosters. Maybe a lesser benefit than an eccm, possibly as much as a backup array gives you.

Additionally, they should introduce skills for sensor strength. These could be racial as well. There already are skills in the game for lock range, scan res, gun tracking and range (however now that I think of it none for sig reduction, but then target painter effects or at least the ship bonuses for it are rather weak in comparison to ecm). This is a glaring hole imo in game design.

Any or all of these could not just reduce the chance of getting jammed but also could even when failing to do that at least reduce the duration of the jam as a backup benefit.

WIth all or some of these things ecm would still be with us, it would still be an incredible irritant when it hits. It just hopefully would hit less often or for less duration and ironically that might help ecm boat pilots not be the instant primary they are now.
Niko Takahashi
Yoshitomi Group
#84 - 2011-11-24 16:10:01 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
Why did these every bother getting nerfed when there are rigs that counter it?

All you need is a T2 Dispersion Projector Rig and you can perma jam - yes perma jam from 80Km at least! and thats with only 1 named ECM, not even a T2 one!

I mean the accuracy falloff is 49 km, so being 80+km away is near the top end of that, how the hell can you still be perma jamming?
The decrease in falloff range is obviously not working!
Seriously! If you are gonna nerf it then do it properly!! Its a joke a ship can just perma jam you anyway!! wtf!


Have you even flown a Falcon?


I dont think he did
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#85 - 2011-11-24 16:34:30 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis

SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar

Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(


Buff ponctuation, nerf stupidity.

Thanks for reading.

I used the armor hurricane as an example, but let me use another example, the Brutix :

Won't talk about shield brutixes, they already have no tank, putting useless sensor back up arrays in lowslots will destroy the only thing left for that ship to do : Gank.

Highs are guns.

Meds are MWD, Scrambler, Webifier, Capbooster.

Lows are 1600mms, EANM x2, Magnetic field stab, DC II.

Won't remove my MWD, it's a blaster boat.

Won't remove my scrambler, or else the target will warp away.

Won't remove my webifier, it's a blaster boat, I'll have troubles closing the gap with minmatar ships, so I don't want them to leave once in web range.

Won't remove my capbooster, because cap-needing weapons + MWD + ennemy neutralizers will literally wreck my cap.

Won't remove my plate nor my EANMs, those 3 slots are basically mandatory on armor ships.

Won't remove my DC II, it brings omniresistances to every layer of defense, and gallente ships have higher hull HP values than other races.

Won't remove my ONLY DAMAGE MOD, obviously.

What now ? Should I reduce my tanking ability by 30% in order to fit a sensor backup array (Even if it's a crappy module that won't help much) ? Should I remove my stasis webifier, on a blaster ship ? Should I remove my damage mod ?

No really. Every other recons have to fit some tank in order to be resilient on the battlefield.

Curses are either shield fit with only neutralizers and no tracking disruptors, or armor fit with medslots filled with EW + capbooster.

Rapiers are either shield fit with only two webifiers and no target painters, or armor fit with medslots filled with EW.

Arazus are either shield fit with a long range point and a scrambler (+ shield modules), or armor fit with medslots filled with EW.

All of them need some tank (And they do fit some tank) because their abilities doesn't completely prevent the 2/3/4 enemy ships to do something AND because they have to be in medium range (40/60km) to work.
Kingwood
Gone Krabbing
#86 - 2011-11-24 17:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kingwood
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

this:

Sobic wrote:
Yet ECM ships die by the truck load every week...


this:

baltec1 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I have not seen a single falcon for months...


this:

Malcanis wrote:
Guys let me tell you about this one time I got jammed for 2 cycles in a row and then ran like a monkey with it's tail on fire to the forums to complain about being "permajammed"


and this:

KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread.





Sorry Zhula, Suitonia didn't hijack this thread in any form at all - he made correct statements regarding ECM.

Say hi to Bushmiller if he still plays.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#87 - 2011-11-24 17:40:59 UTC
KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.


Indeed they're fine, it's damps that are total crap.

If there's something CCP must do is not nerf paper thin ships a single ceptor can kill with no effort but improve Damps use again by giving racial bonus strong enough like ECM suddenly you'll see those are not that OP
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#88 - 2011-11-24 17:43:16 UTC
kyrv wrote:
Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.


Cloaky Proteus are fine too *yummy*
Desudes
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2011-11-24 17:44:28 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread. Falcons are not overpowered, and you're an idiot.


Indeed they're fine, it's damps that are total crap.

If there's something CCP must do is not nerf paper thin ships a single ceptor can kill with no effort but improve Damps use again by giving racial bonus strong enough like ECM suddenly you'll see those are not that OP


Not sure if serious...

Excuse me, but what the f*ck are you desu?
Emiko Luan
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#90 - 2011-11-24 18:07:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Emiko Luan
SMT008 wrote:
[quote=Naomi Knight]totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

Words.



A falcon can't solo you, so why do you speak like you should be able to solo a falcon? You don't need to remove that stuff, just bring someone that has it.

I love seeing people crying that they can't solo in a fleet based game.


Also ECCM does have a positive side effect, it makes you harder to probe (lol - would be nice to see this buffed when they nerf local)
-

If ecm had to be changed I wonder what would happen if the chance was to disable random modules, that would troll people even more...

+welcome to my world+ http://emikochan13.wordpress.com http://emikochan13.deviantart.com
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
#91 - 2011-11-24 18:19:31 UTC
Try flying solo in PvP and then tell me ECCM is useless. Always bring your ECCM.

"Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."

"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#92 - 2011-11-25 02:10:38 UTC
SMT008 wrote:
stuff



no **** sherlock! And here I was thinking force multipliers divided your fleet strength!

Roll

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#93 - 2011-11-25 03:19:55 UTC
Falcon Punch! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWfs1QqKfZU

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Lili Lu
#94 - 2011-11-25 03:35:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Naomi Knight wrote:
totally agree CCP's falcons are op , players' falcons are fine ^^

imho lachesis is imba i couldnt warp out and lost a bs due to that , nerf lachesis

SMT008 typical matar noober , qq winmatar ship inst ecm proof , even it has no electic system in it... buff matar

Lili Lu omg how can somebody as dumb as he is? :(


Do you have characters that fly the other races? I have two other characters that both fly Gallente and Caldari ships, Lachesis and Falcon in fact since you mentioned them. Your disingenuous flipant equating of a Lachesis with a Falcon is "dumb." Grow up.

And here I was thinking some of you Falcon apologists would be relieved that I wasn't another voice for nerf - both conceding that ecm is probably safe for the moment and that I wasn't calling for your precious ecm boats to be nerfed. You all say but just fit an eccm. Well if one is to waste a slot for eccm it damn well better be stronger than it is presently. So calling for buffs to eccm is reasonable. As it is constituted now it provides negligible benefit to a small ship because the sensor integrity boost is % based. And what exactly is wrong with asking that if it fails to prevent a jam it should reduce the duration of the jam.

Naomi, You are a very sad amarr posting alt of some Caldari rp whiner. You have to take off your Caldari glasses and look at this game from a comprehensive perspective. Maybe then you'll address arguments with counter arguments or grudging acknowledgment of a problem and some solutions. And, I suggest that since you hate Minmatar so much you create a minmatar character and get some experience with their ships and weapons. It might give you a different perspective, and maybe you'll stop identifying your entire being with a race in a game.
Misanthra
Alternative Enterprises
#95 - 2011-11-25 04:04:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Misanthra
kyrv wrote:
Takes just a single 90+ ladar strength Tempest to ruin vast numbers of Falcons.



fill in any sniper. Saw a cerb fit somewhere. Sebo' d out to attack at max range (which on a cerb is waaay the hell out). description for fit was simple enough.....this cerb killed pre-nerf falcons.


have something out of the range of a falcon to kill it. this cerb had no point....but not seeing that matter. falcon pilot either dies or has to gtfo. falcon chooses gtfo....no more jams. Not as sexy as a kill, but sure fleet mates will be happy not being jammed.



All this solo stuff....solo falcon what I feared the least. Burn out and byb bye. hated rapiers and arazu more tbh. rapiers web the crap out of you (met these bubble sitting....\o/, mwd bloom to burn this bubble is killing me and I have 2 webs at least on me for more pain). And my fave azazu setup I met ran damps. Point at longrange, damps so I can't attack. Fine....I'll close to not die like a muppet since I now when it gets ugly for you a covert cyno save won't be a surprise.
Sven Galli
Drama Inc.
#96 - 2011-11-25 04:20:11 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Apollo Gabriel wrote:
I often fit ECCM, not sure why you think people do not. Now I have problems with ECCM, as there aren't ANTI Neut Mods, ANTI TP mods, ANTI web mods, etc. There are cap boosters, abs and mwds that all have a purpose other than ANTI ECM.


you must be the only person that does then Smile


Uhm, no. You may the only one who doesn't.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#97 - 2011-11-25 04:32:21 UTC
Grimpak wrote:
the issue about ECM is a little bit complex. it's not the mods that are overpowered, it's the mechanic itself. The mods work as they are supposed to, which is to be a force multiplier on the battlefield. Due to its nature, it's also limited to X-small to medium sized gang warfare (up to 40-50 people gangs), being large gangs a place where it's better to bring a dps ship.
However, because of how the ECM mechanic is (RNG-based "Yes/No" mechanism), this also means that any nerf you impart on the will make them totally useless. Likewise, a boost, no matter how tiny, will make them much stronger.
Because of these two points, ECM as it is is already balanced to the maximum effect (relatively to totally useless on non specialized hulls, but the specialized hulls are very good at jamming stuff), and because reworking the ECM mechanics from ground up means a total revamp of ECM and even maybe Ewar, doing anything to it is a pretty much daunting task that would probably require a too big ammout of work to make it worthwhile.


TL;DR: ECM is strong, maybe too strong, but it's impossible or highly inefficient to balance it further or overhauling.


best bet would be to boost the other ewar. ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).


+1. This in a nutshell.
ElCholo
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2011-11-25 05:17:18 UTC
Mean, terrible falcon jammed my curse! Until my single flight of warriors forced him off the field in armor....
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2011-11-25 05:21:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
In my opinion, one of the main issues with ECM is that the counter (ECCM) is only useful to counter ECM. This is not the case with other kinds of ewar; The counter to damps (Sebo) is also useful to increase scan res and targeting range even when not damped. The counter to neuts (cap booster) is also useful in many situations where you aren't getting neuted. The counter to a short range scrams and TPs (the AB) is also useful to sigtank. The counter to webs (MWDing and praying they don't have a short scram) is useful for any situation where you need to escape or kite.

Then there's ECM. The counter to it is ECCM, which does nothing but help prevent ECM. This makes it very unfriendly to fit, since if you're not getting jammed, ECCM is literally a waste of a slot, whereas other ewar counters are still useful in virtually any situation.

Perhaps merge ECCM with sensor boosters, and we'll see an increase in the usefulness of it, or give it some distinct and new effect such as reducing the signature radius of the ship using it. Currently, it's just extremely "meh."
Kovorix
Matari Exodus
#100 - 2011-11-25 06:12:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kovorix
Perceptions about ECM vary a lot among players, and basically it depends on what play style people come from. I like to play solo and in small gangs, and ECM to me is absolutely the worst part of the game. For me, Falcons, ECM drones, BBs, etc. completely ruin the fun of a fight. But i can see, coming from a larger gang or efficiency-minded perspective, that falcons are just another tool to be used, and at some point they scale out (that is, the scale of the fight destroys their usefulness).

In trying to formulate a good argument against ECM, I think it's more useful to focus on the mechanic itself. In a competitive game situation, chance should be minimized as much as possible. Of course, a tiny bit of chance can make the game more exciting (wrecking shots, etc), but chance should never decide the outcome of a battle if you want your game to be competitive. Take a game like chess for example - chance has been reduced to 0 and thus there is maximum competition.

However, in eve we love variability. There are lots of treasured variables that contribute to the outcome of a fight - skill points, backup, chance encounters with other gangs, fittings and counter fittings etc. However, all of these variables are essentially player-driven. And the ones that are not generally do not affect the outcome of a battle. ECM differs from this model.

In a small-scale fight, a single jam, hit or miss, can determine who wins and loses. While this is tempered somewhat by player choice (choice to fit ECCM, skill in jamming), at its base it remains a simple probability problem - but a probability problem with the capability of making or breaking a fight. I've had fights where a set of small ECM drones jammed me 3 times in a row (With an overheated ECCM, I have fraps). I've had others where 2 minutes pass without a single jam from them. This is massive variability, and in each case that variability makes me either win or lose., regardless of what else I did in the fight. This is anti-EVE and anti-fun. ECM needs to be brought in line with other combat systems in order for it to be properly competitive.

ECM needs to be overhauled. The 2 general options, based on the above:

1. Reduce the effectiveness so that the randomness doesn't affect outcomes of fights.
OR
2. Remove the random factor in ECM. Create a new system which is 100% hit-based (like neuts)

I prefer #2, because #1 only nerfs it in line with other bad e-war. It would obviously be complicated to balance, but I hope CCP gets on this asap.

But I think we all can agree: we all love competition more than we love probability.