These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Orca: Maint Bay Change + Ore Hold Buff
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-01-15 11:37:28 UTC

One of the biggest and most annoying things I have seen in eve at the moment is griefers using orcas to instaswitch to combat ships on a safe. If you bring a gang to tackle them, then they can instaswitch from a buffer tanked proteus to a noobship and warp off or suffer an inconsequential loss.

This is common in missioning systems (Sheroo at the moment), seeing a group of 5 orcas at a safe, fielding neutral alt reppers, combat ships galore - basically a remote operations base away from stations that abuses the Orcas maint bay. I might question why we have a carrier in hisec? And why is this carrier now so easy to train for ...

A simple solution would be to change the Orca bay to only accept haulers or mining vessels. Of course, this 'nerf' would upset all those legitimate uses which is: the combat ship ready to engage pirates ... yeah right ... gankers land and kill before you can even think of switching, and before concord kill them, pirates will kill/steal both your orca and kill that cruiser you jump into.

My proposal:
Remove combat ships from the maint bay.
Make the maint bay size grow with skill level.
Make the ore bay size grow with skill level (50k start, 200k max).

Or: Orcas grab aggression from pilots who use the maint bay :)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-01-15 11:38:47 UTC
What about the legitimate users who use their orca to move their ships around?
Zerlestes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-01-15 12:27:50 UTC
orca is meant for mining support even if it used for other thing it should be a sole mining support vessel
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#4 - 2014-01-15 12:47:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Maximus Aerelius
I cannot get behind removing Combat Ships from the SMB. I use an Orca for operations and the fact that gankers use it is just emergent game play. Removing Combat Ships would give miners 0 options to board a combat ship from the bay should they pick up an incoming gank on D-Scan.

Bearing in mind that an Orca can hold an Exhumer and this can be swapped out to a BC it's versatile in what it can provide mining fleets. Would a few Catalysts take on a Drake that's waiting for them in Hi-Sec with CONCORD on it's way? Now I know it's only 1 Drake but if you're mining smart and staying aligned that one Drake just might make them think again or get some payback while you and your mining buddies are GTFO of dodge Big smile

Removing Combat Ships would damage other legitimate uses of the Orca like Low Sec mobile operations bases for those that live where stations aren't or those that get them into Null and aren't in big alliances so have no stations to dock at.

I just don't see that penalising the many because a few have though of a way to adapt to a different kind of game play is a positive change.

-1 from me on that I'm afraid.

EDIT: If anything I'd like to see a Mineral Bay added and or an increase to the Ore Hold. All that being said you can expand the Cargo Hold and use the Fleet Hanger to store more ore\mins and it has a lot of space already. For what it is supposed to do it does it but we'll always want more Lol

I love the idea of allowing an increase in size to the Ore Bay. It should bonus per level every Hanger but not so much as it becomes OP for the SMB. Ore, Fleet, Cargo and SMB should have different % increases per level of training IMHO.

EDIT 2: I think that the "Aggression Timer" passing to the Orca would be a good thing as it is the Orca Pilot's choice to allow pilots to access the SMB\Fleet Hanger and so he has made the conscious decision. Perhaps give him a Suspect Flag instead of allowing the Orca Pilot to be CONCORDed would maybe push this kind of avoidance of loss away.

Just some thoughts.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#5 - 2014-01-15 14:01:29 UTC
Don't you dare touch my orca. That thing is my pride and joy, and is my home away from home in w-space. I live out of that tin can.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
#6 - 2014-01-15 15:05:11 UTC
I think an orca pilot should inherit all flags from someone who uses their services, as it is rendering assistance, but if the orca pilot's got his safety set to green, the system won't let him help a criminal to reship until he sets his safety to red (then inheriting the criminal flag from the criminal, and getting concordokken)

if I sit in an orca, fielding an endless resupply of ships for my buddy, proteus 1, proteus 2, etc, during a dual, I'm as good as RR'ing them, possibly better

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.
Kaerakh
Obscure Joke Implied
#7 - 2014-01-15 15:10:14 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I think an orca pilot should inherit all flags from someone who uses their services, as it is rendering assistance, but if the orca pilot's got his safety set to green, the system won't let him help a criminal to reship until he sets his safety to red (then inheriting the criminal flag from the criminal, and getting concordokken)

if I sit in an orca, fielding an endless resupply of ships for my buddy, proteus 1, proteus 2, etc, during a dual, I'm as good as RR'ing them, possibly better


I would hardly call 2 proteus' endless. The ship maintenance bay is actually quite small in comparison to other ships of similar capability.

Schrodinger's Hot Dropper

The Fate of Forum Alts

Guaranteed Success
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#8 - 2014-01-15 15:11:18 UTC
Simple fix.

Keep the current system, but give the orca pilot a suspect / criminal / LE flag if the person swapping out a ship has a suspect / criminal / LE flag respectively.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#9 - 2014-01-15 15:17:35 UTC
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I think an orca pilot should inherit all flags from someone who uses their services, as it is rendering assistance, but if the orca pilot's got his safety set to green, the system won't let him help a criminal to reship until he sets his safety to red (then inheriting the criminal flag from the criminal, and getting concordokken)

if I sit in an orca, fielding an endless resupply of ships for my buddy, proteus 1, proteus 2, etc, during a dual, I'm as good as RR'ing them, possibly better


I'd agree with hooking it into the Green-Amber-Red safeties but also bearing in mind that you can grant explicit access to Corp and Fleet Members for the SMB and FH on an Orca. It may only take one to "go off the reservation" and attack someone and then dive into your hanger as he's in your Corp\Fleet and all hell breaks loose...pop goes the Orca.

It's a troublesome one and I agree that it should inherit some of the risk for directly affecting the outcome of an engagement be it ganking, dueling or whatever. Should it be Criminal Flagged? I don't think so as it hasn't directly committed a crime and therefore I think Suspect Flag is enough as it's assisting but not directly involved:

Crimewatch wrote:

Suspect Timer

Only applicable in Empire-owned space (0.1 to 1.0), the Suspect Flag allows any other player to attack you without penalty for the duration of the timer. CONCORD and gate guns will not defend you, and the attacker will not receive a reduction in Security Standings. The Suspect flag lasts for 15 minutes, and actions that will activate the flag differ depending on the Security Status of the solar system. Pod killing a capsuleer with an active Suspect Timer will not result in security status loss or CONCORD response.

In high-security space, you can acquire a Suspect flag by stealing from a container or wreck, and by providing a remote assistance to other players in possession of an active Suspect Flag, Criminal Flag or Limited Engagement, or players who have Outlaw status (have -5 Security Status or lower). You can also be given a Suspect flag if a player activates a kill right on you.

In low-security space, targeting a player's ship (not their capsule) with any offensive module, including Smartbombs and other non-targeted weapons, will provoke a Suspect flag. Stealing from a container will also provoke the flag, though assisting outlaw players in low security space will not.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Notorious Fellon
#10 - 2014-01-15 15:23:15 UTC
Maximus Aerelius wrote:
Xe'Cara'eos wrote:
I think an orca pilot should inherit all flags from someone who uses their services, as it is rendering assistance, but if the orca pilot's got his safety set to green, the system won't let him help a criminal to reship until he sets his safety to red (then inheriting the criminal flag from the criminal, and getting concordokken)

if I sit in an orca, fielding an endless resupply of ships for my buddy, proteus 1, proteus 2, etc, during a dual, I'm as good as RR'ing them, possibly better


I'd agree with hooking it into the Green-Amber-Red safeties but also bearing in mind that you can grant explicit access to Corp and Fleet Members for the SMB and FH on an Orca. It may only take one to "go off the reservation" and attack someone and then dive into your hanger as he's in your Corp\Fleet and all hell breaks loose...pop goes the Orca.

It's a troublesome one and I agree that it should inherit some of the risk for directly affecting the outcome of an engagement be it ganking, dueling or whatever. Should it be Criminal Flagged? I don't think so as it hasn't directly committed a crime and therefore I think Suspect Flag is enough as it's assisting but not directly involved:

Crimewatch wrote:

Suspect Timer

Only applicable in Empire-owned space (0.1 to 1.0), the Suspect Flag allows any other player to attack you without penalty for the duration of the timer. CONCORD and gate guns will not defend you, and the attacker will not receive a reduction in Security Standings. The Suspect flag lasts for 15 minutes, and actions that will activate the flag differ depending on the Security Status of the solar system. Pod killing a capsuleer with an active Suspect Timer will not result in security status loss or CONCORD response.

In high-security space, you can acquire a Suspect flag by stealing from a container or wreck, and by providing a remote assistance to other players in possession of an active Suspect Flag, Criminal Flag or Limited Engagement, or players who have Outlaw status (have -5 Security Status or lower). You can also be given a Suspect flag if a player activates a kill right on you.

In low-security space, targeting a player's ship (not their capsule) with any offensive module, including Smartbombs and other non-targeted weapons, will provoke a Suspect flag. Stealing from a container will also provoke the flag, though assisting outlaw players in low security space will not.


I agree here. Limit the Orca pilot to gaining Suspect flag, regardless of the flag on the ship-swapper.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Dyfchris
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-01-15 16:52:55 UTC
-1 . I use my orca ship maintenance bay...
Capt Retard
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-01-15 17:20:22 UTC
Yes - as expected - dont fix this broken thing - "I use it" - as does everyone else I might add.

A key thing here is its abuse - the wrong form of 'use'. Its mining support role, not carrier role, is the oddity. The Rorqual restricts itself to mining and industrials.

Fix the ships role or fix the abuse of that role ...

Criminal flag if used by criminals seems more than reasonable. The vast majority of abuse is done by orca alts in NPC corps that cant be wardecced, and thus are immune from any other means of getting at the griefers.

I prefer the criminal flag fix myself. But would support either - its simply an oversight by CCP.
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
#13 - 2014-01-15 17:27:32 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
Yes - as expected - dont fix this broken thing - "I use it" - as does everyone else I might add.

A key thing here is its abuse - the wrong form of 'use'. Its mining support role, not carrier role, is the oddity. The Rorqual restricts itself to mining and industrials.

Fix the ships role or fix the abuse of that role ...

Criminal flag if used by criminals seems more than reasonable. The vast majority of abuse is done by orca alts in NPC corps that cant be wardecced, and thus are immune from any other means of getting at the griefers.

I prefer the criminal flag fix myself. But would support either - its simply an oversight by CCP.


I'm sorry but abuse...or emergent gameplay? Changing the POS Forcefield password to effect a Drebuchet is emergent gameplay but abuses the POS Forcefield password mechanic...ummm.

Depends how you look at it but I'm not a greifer but as the Orca is less specialised in the role of Mining Support and the Rorqual is an industrial processing plant as well as an industrial platform I don't think the two can be compared directly.

The Orca is a general purpose T1 Capital Industrial Command Ship which should be able to field vessels from it's SMB. It's restricted in what in how many ships\what type it can carry already by the limited amount of m3 available.

Suspect Flagging would enable people to take it out of the game and hopefully the X number of Catalysts that are still in the SMB at the same time thus adding to the KM the happy miners would receive Twisted.

[b]Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station[/b] Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up!
Anys Thes'Realin
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2014-01-15 18:01:43 UTC
A lot of people would be very angry if they suddenly they can't use their Orca for their original purpose and loosing a good chunk of training. I'm not a miner, and I wouldn't otherwise touch Mining Foreman V.

I used Orcas a lot on my old character, and am looking to train this up in the near future so I can use an Orca again to move my stuff around a bit more conveniently than using an Itty V.

Now letting an Orca pilot inherit aggression/criminal/suspect flags is perfectly reasonable, and being able to tie it into the GYR Safety System would be perfect. I can't say how difficult that would be to implement, depends on how hard it'd be to hook the Safety/Crimewatch system into the older Fleet/Shared Maintenance Array

My EVElopedia roleplaying profile, last updated February 23rd, 2014: http://tinyurl.com/nfazlch I support having more clothes for our characters!  http://tinyurl.com/kpafjh2
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#15 - 2014-01-15 18:54:35 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:

My proposal:
Remove combat ships from the maint bay.
Make the maint bay size grow with skill level.
Make the ore bay size grow with skill level (50k start, 200k max).


I like how you threw these in, despite them having nothing to do with your complaint.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Khoul Ay'd
The Affiliation
#16 - 2014-01-15 18:55:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Khoul Ay'd
Capt ****** wrote:
Yes - as expected - dont fix this broken thing - "I use it" - as does everyone else I might add.

A key thing here is its abuse - the wrong form of 'use'. Its mining support role, not carrier role, is the oddity. The Rorqual restricts itself to mining and industrials.

Fix the ships role or fix the abuse of that role ...

Criminal flag if used by criminals seems more than reasonable. The vast majority of abuse is done by orca alts in NPC corps that cant be wardecced, and thus are immune from any other means of getting at the griefers.

I prefer the criminal flag fix myself. But would support either - its simply an oversight by CCP.


No, leave it as is. Using an Orca this way is the closest we have to a Q Ship in Eve.

Additionally, just because you don't fly to fleet in a frig or cruiser and reship into a barge for a mining op doesn't mean the rest of us indies are so fixed on 'ship roles'.

The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it
Khoul Ay'd
The Affiliation
#17 - 2014-01-15 19:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Khoul Ay'd
Capt ****** wrote:
A key thing here is its abuse - the wrong form of 'use'. Its mining support role, not carrier role, is the oddity. The Rorqual restricts itself to mining and industrials.

Fix the ships role or fix the abuse of that role ...


Criminal flag, fine. But leave the mechanic of docking what fits in the bay alone.

It's an industrial COMMAND ship, two roles not one. Because someone doesn't use every feature does not constitute abuse!

By this argument fitting a shield harmonics link or other non-industrial boost module is also abuse. What about salvage dessies, battle badgers, bait barges. If I use a ship and don't fit for its bonuses am I 'abusing the system.'

Eve allows us to use our imaginations to come up with new roles and new fits. Adjust!

The things we do today we must live with forever.... Think about it
JamnOne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2014-01-15 20:25:45 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:

And why is this carrier now so easy to train for ...


It is a mini-carrier with basically a limited role. I will agree, that because of what it can do that it might seem a little bit too easy for someone to train into it. Maybe think about making those who fly it have to train up the same skills - minus the ship - as those who have to fly a Command Ship.

Even this won't change the issue that you are seeing. The Orca is working as planned. Cars were not designed for drive-by shootings. The Orca wasn't designed to grief people - that we know of. Criminals are going to do whatever they can to get the advantage. This is just one of those advantages. Enjoy it!
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2014-01-16 05:05:36 UTC
Welcome to the Sand Box.



Please keep your walls in your corner of it. The rest of us like the flexibility we are given with the tools CCP has provided for us. It's called.... ah yes, Emergent Game Play, thank you rest of thread, and is the core of Eve.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#20 - 2014-01-16 11:24:00 UTC
Capt ****** wrote:
A simple solution would be to change the Orca bay to only accept haulers or mining vessels.


No.

Capt ****** wrote:
Or: Orcas grab aggression from pilots who use the maint bay :)


Yes.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.
12Next page