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CCP - Falcons - Still massively overpowered!

Author
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#61 - 2011-11-24 05:08:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Hans Jagerblitzen
Grimpak wrote:
ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).


TD's = 100% protection if they enable you to get under the opponents guns. A few frigates can take down turret ship of any size with these. Just lock, TD, kill drones, blow up ship.

SD = almost better than ECM when used properly because while ECM is chance based and can fail, SD always breaks a lock as long as you've done your range math right and have sufficient speed. They jam a lock 100% of the time, and can do so while fitted on ships that aren't even bonused for them, unlike ECM which is restricted to only a few ships to be effective.

TP = great with stealth bombers, drakes, sniper BS, pretty much any situation where you need more DPS on targets smaller than your caliber of weapon. About to become VERY useful with the new Tier 3 BC's - where hitting stuff smaller than your gun caliber will be a critical challenge, easily assisted by fitting a TP, or better yet, bringing along a rapier that could do the job even better. Everyone forgets that gun turrets have their own intrinsic scan resolution that must be smaller than sig radius to do full damage, so tracking is not the only factor in whether you do full DPS. TP are more useful than they are given credit for, they just work differently than the other ewars designed to prevent a ship from shooting back, so they're impossible to compare to something like ECM. Lack of popularity =/= lack of usefulness.

The racial ewar's are only LOL if you haven't seen them used them to frak over an opponent before, using the right ship in the right situation. Falcons and blackbirds are also situational. They are always primary, and can be taken out faster than any other ship that gets used in combat on grid. Falcon / BB pilots must have BALLS. One mistake, and you're toast. I'm fine with those weaknesses being offset by a powerful ewar effect.

And no, I'm not a caldari fanboy. I've never even injected Caldari Cruiser skill (out of hatred for drakes). I've only been on the receiving end of jams, but I've never seen them used often enough to be raising a ruckus about it. If they were used in every fight, it would be one thing. But they're not.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Suitonia
Order of the Red Kestrel
#62 - 2011-11-24 05:34:34 UTC
Overall ECM isn't really overpowered. You're right in the fact that It's a horrible game mechanic with horrible scaling, and often feels horrible to use and even worse to have it used against you. The ECM mechanic IS overpowered, however this is balanced by the fact that the only ships that can use it well are pretty gimped combat and fittings wise. This actually creates a big problem on a player satisfication level though. It's also balanced around there being a counter module to it.

If you jam someone, do you really get that much satisification from it? You pressed F1, you got a lucky dice roll. Consequentially, as an ECM pilot it really really sucks if you don't jam someone, because you are more or less useless until your jammers recycle, as you do minimal DPS, and don't provide anything else, you are also most likely dead. Also because of the chance mechanic, there are times where you come in to a fight only to have several jams fail and die instantly.

If you get jammed, you feel like ****. 20 seconds of not being able to do absolutely anything except manoeuvre your ship. If you get TD'd, you can still provide tackle, repair your friends etc. The same applies with being damped, with the added option of being able to move in closer, or just maybe sit on top of a friendly ship and repair it, also I feel like people who use dampeners or tracking disruptors effectively are out playing me, or have out smarted me more than I feel when I see a falcon appear and just permajam me because he got lucky rolls. It doesn't feel good to counter ECM either, it's all done in the fitting screen before you undock, this also creates a problem with roaming, mobile gangs since you either choose to cripple your ships with fitting ECCM and lose to an equal-numbered gang that doesn't have ECM, or you don't and can't engage or lose to ECM. This is what I hate most about ECM, in a lot of cases the presence of ECM for a gang/pilot that doesn't have ECCM basically means "sorry we can't engage".

It scales horribly too. In a 5v5 a falcon is broken as **** since it basically turns the fight into a 1-2v4. where as in a 50vs50 the falcons impact is minimal and pretty much instantly dies. In smaller engagements people are less likely to use ECM and more likely to use ships with lower sensor strengths too, which if any of them are under 14 (50% of the ships in eveonline do). They get permajammed by a recon 5 falcon with racial jammer.

I really wished they change the ecm mechanic to something which isn't so completely binary and overwhelming, and at the same time, make it more consistant, buff the ecm ships so they provide utility and bring additional worth to fleets outside ECM. Right now its **** to use, **** to fight against, kills most solo/small gang PvP, and causes people to not engage.

Contributer to Eve is Easy:  https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos

Solo PvP is possible with a 20 day old character! :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvOB4KXYk-o

Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations
#63 - 2011-11-24 06:03:09 UTC
TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

this:

Sobic wrote:
Yet ECM ships die by the truck load every week...


this:

baltec1 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I have not seen a single falcon for months...


this:

Malcanis wrote:
Guys let me tell you about this one time I got jammed for 2 cycles in a row and then ran like a monkey with it's tail on fire to the forums to complain about being "permajammed"


and this:

KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread.



0ccupational Hazzard --> check out the true love story 

Tobias Sjodin
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2011-11-24 06:18:02 UTC
Losers always find a way to lose, falcons or not.

Ronald Reagan: I do not like Sweden, they support communism. Minister: Sir, but Sweden are anti-communist, Sir.  Ronald Reagan: I do not care what kind of communists they are.

Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#65 - 2011-11-24 06:30:27 UTC
Zhula Guixgrixks wrote:
TD;LR

- Ministry of War seems to have real issues with ECM warfare.
- Terminal Troll's carrier got jammed by EC-300's !11!! . Hint: A monocle doesn't help against ECM
- Some Genos trying to hijack an ECM thread again
- Tears from random toons

this:

Sobic wrote:
Yet ECM ships die by the truck load every week...


this:

baltec1 wrote:
Now that I think about it, I have not seen a single falcon for months...


this:

Malcanis wrote:
Guys let me tell you about this one time I got jammed for 2 cycles in a row and then ran like a monkey with it's tail on fire to the forums to complain about being "permajammed"


and this:

KFenn wrote:
This is a terrible thread.





Your well balanced and entirely non-peurile response is duly noted in the 'worthless post' pile.

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)

Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2011-11-24 06:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Il Feytid
I would like ECM to work 100% of the time like painters and damps, except some other form of EW that does not keep a player from playing the game for 20 seconds.

So if it did work 100% of the time, would it be OP? What would it need to be to not be OP?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#67 - 2011-11-24 11:26:52 UTC
As I said, the Falcon itself is not OP. The whole system needs to be looked at.

In small gang warfare. Let's say, two BCs coming your way, another guy reported aswell, don't know his shiptype.
I'm like, okay, two BCs, I can take on them with a triple-plated Abbadon I guess. See what I'm doing there ? I know I have a chance of doing something, I know, well, I think I can take them down solo, or I'll kill one of them and the other one will get out of my webrange.

Then what happens, the third guy is a falcon.

What can I do ? I'll get permajammed. If I bring a mate and his BS, we will still get jammed between the falcon, and the two sets of ECM drones. If I bring 3 BS, 2 BCs, this is now a blob, they'll try to run as fast as they can, and we won't catch sh*t. And can't bait, they'll jam the bait anyway.

See where is the problem ?

You'll tell me, take a SD boat or even a regular SD module. I'll have to lock faster than a Falcon, who have a higher scan res than any armor BS. What now ?

A Falcon can pretty much permajamm 3 targets at once. And there is NOTHING the targets can do about it. They can move around the grid, they can't point anything, they can't remote, they can't shoot, they can't throw their drones. For 20s cycles.

That's where ECM is OP compared to other EWs.

Other EWs are counter-able or at least fight-able by regular ships. I can fight a Curse (neutralizing curse, not a full EW curse) with a Tempest (I did, actually, there was a Drake and a Cane with him I think, took down the Drake, the others were out of range and left), I can fight a damping Arazu by rushing towards him or toward my targets. I'll then be in my max targetting range, and I'll be able to do something. I can fight a Rapier by...well, It slow me down, but I can still shoot at him if he is in range (And with large ACs, he is usually in Barrage range).

A Falcon is just something you can't fight, because it doesn't care where you are and what you're doing, it will just prevent you from doing ANYTHING.

However, I'm not nerfing the cr*p out of the Falcon with the changes I proposed.

I'm nerfing ECM drones, because they need nerfing.

I'm buffing ECCMs. This is NOT the same as nerfing Falcons and jammers. You still need to fit an ECCM in order to effectively counter a Falcon. I'm just cutting by half the amount of ECCMs needed to counter those ships, and I'm trying to find a parameter that an ECCM could affect on your ship, so it actually enhance the ship passively (Even when you're not fighting a Falcon).

And yes, I'm nerfing by 25% Optimal/Falloff of Falcons. Why ? Because it's currently very powerfull, and I don't think you should be able to COMPLETELY and PERMANANTLY incapacitate 3 targets at 120km when a Rapier can't web **** at 65km (Well, it can web at that range, with some bonuses, overloading or faction modules, but still). Oh and it can cloack.

Last thing, why do I want non-racial strengh on racial jammers to be removed ?

Because it forces Falcon pilots not to throw a MWD and a full rack of random ECMs, and count on the sheer hull bonuses to make them work.

If you want to jam a Caldari ship and you don't have caldari jammers, use your multispectral jammer.

And I'm not touching jammers duration, because of that thing I added about how ECCMs have a chance of breaking an ECM cycle. Why ? In a small group of players, let's say Rooks and Kings, because those guys are awesome and really know how the game works. Let's say one of their 3 logistics is jammed. He'll tell the other logistics/ships who have an ECCM module to lock him and activate their modules, it might stop the ongoing ECM cycle. That means, the clever use of those modules in a "team-play" way will ensure a more efficient defense against ECMs. And this is what EVE is all about right ? Playing with other peoples.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#68 - 2011-11-24 11:32:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Grimpak wrote:
ECM as it is, is only really OP because it's compared to TD's (meh), dampners (LOL) and painter (ROFLOL).


TD's = 100% protection if they enable you to get under the opponents guns. A few frigates can take down turret ship of any size with these. Just lock, TD, kill drones, blow up ship.

SD = almost better than ECM when used properly because while ECM is chance based and can fail, SD always breaks a lock as long as you've done your range math right and have sufficient speed. They jam a lock 100% of the time, and can do so while fitted on ships that aren't even bonused for them, unlike ECM which is restricted to only a few ships to be effective.

TP = great with stealth bombers, drakes, sniper BS, pretty much any situation where you need more DPS on targets smaller than your caliber of weapon. About to become VERY useful with the new Tier 3 BC's - where hitting stuff smaller than your gun caliber will be a critical challenge, easily assisted by fitting a TP, or better yet, bringing along a rapier that could do the job even better. Everyone forgets that gun turrets have their own intrinsic scan resolution that must be smaller than sig radius to do full damage, so tracking is not the only factor in whether you do full DPS. TP are more useful than they are given credit for, they just work differently than the other ewars designed to prevent a ship from shooting back, so they're impossible to compare to something like ECM. Lack of popularity =/= lack of usefulness.

The racial ewar's are only LOL if you haven't seen them used them to frak over an opponent before, using the right ship in the right situation. Falcons and blackbirds are also situational. They are always primary, and can be taken out faster than any other ship that gets used in combat on grid. Falcon / BB pilots must have BALLS. One mistake, and you're toast. I'm fine with those weaknesses being offset by a powerful ewar effect.

And no, I'm not a caldari fanboy. I've never even injected Caldari Cruiser skill (out of hatred for drakes). I've only been on the receiving end of jams, but I've never seen them used often enough to be raising a ruckus about it. If they were used in every fight, it would be one thing. But they're not.



my point isn't that. I know pretty well that all the other forms of ewar are useful.

they are quite underpowered when compared with ECM tho.


SMT008 wrote:
stuff


so from your point of view, if I have the bigger ship I should come on top when going on a 3vs1 where the enemy is prepared and you're just fit to damage. then you decided to call for help and they came unprepared for the engagement as well.


Straight


also ECM drones are overrated.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2011-11-24 11:49:31 UTC
Sobic wrote:
On a serious note: If you could assign drone targets even when jammed. It would balance out ECM even further.



If your drones aren't heading that way the second he uncloaks you already have issues.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#70 - 2011-11-24 12:38:46 UTC  |  Edited by: SMT008
Grimpak wrote:

SMT008 wrote:
stuff


so from your point of view, if I have the bigger ship I should come on top when going on a 3vs1 where the enemy is prepared and you're just fit to damage. then you decided to call for help and they came unprepared for the engagement as well.


Straight


also ECM drones are overrated.


You're missing the point.

From my point of view, you'll get permajammed if there is a falcon, and there is nothing you can do about it except being a sieged dread or a supercapital.

I explained already that a Curse is counterable by using capacitor injectors, a Rapier just slow you down, you can still shoot or remote or whatever, an Arazu can be avoided by grabbing an ennemy ship with your scrambler + web and beat the crap out of it.

What can you do solo vs a Falcon ? Nothing. It will permajam you while this rookie ship kills you at the slow rate of 2hp/3s. Really ?

Bring 2 battleships, they'll get permajammed aswell. Well, maybe not PERMA, but what can you do when the falcon is 110km away. So what are you going to do ? Bring more peoples. Or bring a Falcon. Falcons are a force multiplier, they also create blobs because blobs are the most reliable way to fight falcons.

Oh and don't tell me "you can ask a frigate friend to kill the falcon, because the falcon have no guns and is paperthin", whatever comes under 60km from the falcon will get jammed anyway. Two solutions => Instapop it (Falcon pilots get mad when you do that), or sensor damp it. If you can lock before he locks you. And if you can fit sensor damps (Read : if you are in an armor tanked ship with enough medslots, or a shield tanked ship with too many medslots).

And, on top of that, capboosters, sensor boosters, and all other modules that are supposed to counter an EW ship to increase your ability to fight/lock/move/track EVEN WHEN NOT FIGHTING A EW ship.

ECCMs gimp your fits because you fit them JUST IN CASE THERE IS A FALCON and nothing else.

Sensor boosters don't gimp your fit JUST IN CASE THERE IS AN ARAZU, it helps you out with locking further or locking faster.

Same goes for capboosters, they don't gimp your fit, they are mandatory on Gallente/Amarr ships anyway, and usually usefull on every battleship.

And what is this faggotry about drones ? You can't throw them at a Falcon, because a falcon is usually 100km away from the fight. And don't even think about rushing 50km or so just so you can throw 5 light drones. It's useless.

EDIT : Oh and I forgot the part where a Falcon can COMPLETELY prevent 3 to 4 targets from doing anything, while the other recons can lighly incapacitate 2 targets at most. Don't tell me an Arazu can REALLY incapacitate 4 targets because it has 4 RSDs, or a Curse can incapacitate 4 battleships (Who can avoid that by fitting something usefull, like a capbooster). Oh and the Rapier usually have two webs. Three or four in armor setups, but still, if you want to decrease a target's speed, you want two webs per target. Also, the Rapier is forced to be at medium ranges, while the Falcon can stay at 100/120km all the time.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2011-11-24 12:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Onictus
What?

Seriously if Falcons were that crazy, there would be pirates ganking with them....not Vaga's and Cynabals.


:edit
Nice rant....there isn't a lot of reality behind it but nice.
The Tzar
T-Wrecks
R I O T
#72 - 2011-11-24 12:58:11 UTC
OMG I cannot believe this age old whine is still going.

I can promise the OP that against a decent fleet of decent pvpers even an excellent falcon pilot is FAR from overpowered.

Unless as a victim you are flying around in T1 cruisers or maybe maurauders the whole bull$hit concerning perma-jamming is exactly that; just plain lies.

Everyone is aware that the ECM is a 'statistical mod', say in an average fight if you're not primaried but die you might be on the field for 30 seconds to a couple of minutes. How is two to six successful roles of the dice suddenly stated as a permanent fact? You produce a table of over a hundred ECM events and over 95% of them are successes then your statement has credibility.

ECM is the only EW module that requires you to use lowslots AND rigs AND a specialised ship to be of any use whatsoever.

Webs, neuts, scrams/points, damps and disruptors are all seen on ships that don't have a bonus to them.
Coincidence?

I want my old 249km jamming, bubble skirting, safe-spot hopping, cyno-dropping falcon of old and then we shall see who is crying Twisted

Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2011-11-24 13:09:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
ECM - Electronic Counter Measures

I've read a fair amount of posts in this thread. Is ECM too strong? Can one counter ECM?

The falcon is like flying a wet paper bag. It can only target what it knows is on the field. It can be jammed by other ECM, countered by ECCM. Your drones can rip it to shreds and there's nothing a ECM boat can do to jam your drones.

The other forms of electronic warfare, tracking disruption and sensor dampening, pale in comparison because ECM is everything rolled up into one and much more effective. ECM is tracking disruption and sensor dampening to ultimate effect. ECM completely trumps tracking disruption and sensor dampening in all situations. This should not be.

I don't think the question is: Is ECM too strong? The question is should ECM be sub-divided into more categories with varying effects but more limited in SCOPE.

We already have that with tracking disruption and sensor dampening but ECM trumps it. I think ECM, because it is ultimately sensor dampening and tracking disruption in one very powerful module should have less chance of success. Sensor dampening and tracking disruption should be buffed to have a greater chance of being successful and with stronger effects. I think the ECM pilot should choose: Does he want to turn off a very few, possibly one, ships' abilities to target or effect a greater number of pilots' ability to track and reduce their target range. Such electronics weapons platforms should still remain long range, almost out of reach platforms, IMO.

Don't ban me, bro!

Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2011-11-24 13:36:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
SMT008 wrote:
Grimpak wrote:

SMT008 wrote:
stuff


so from your point of view, if I have the bigger ship I should come on top when going on a 3vs1 where the enemy is prepared and you're just fit to damage. then you decided to call for help and they came unprepared for the engagement as well.


Straight


also ECM drones are overrated.


You're missing the point.

From my point of view, you'll get permajammed if there is a falcon, and there is nothing you can do about it except being a sieged dread or a supercapital.

I explained already that a Curse is counterable by using capacitor injectors, a Rapier just slow you down, you can still shoot or remote or whatever, an Arazu can be avoided by grabbing an ennemy ship with your scrambler + web and beat the crap out of it.

What can you do solo vs a Falcon ? Nothing. It will permajam you while this rookie ship kills you at the slow rate of 2hp/3s. Really ?

Bring 2 battleships, they'll get permajammed aswell. Well, maybe not PERMA, but what can you do when the falcon is 110km away. So what are you going to do ? Bring more peoples. Or bring a Falcon. Falcons are a force multiplier, they also create blobs because blobs are the most reliable way to fight falcons.

Oh and don't tell me "you can ask a frigate friend to kill the falcon, because the falcon have no guns and is paperthin", whatever comes under 60km from the falcon will get jammed anyway. Two solutions => Instapop it (Falcon pilots get mad when you do that), or sensor damp it. If you can lock before he locks you. And if you can fit sensor damps (Read : if you are in an armor tanked ship with enough medslots, or a shield tanked ship with too many medslots).

And, on top of that, capboosters, sensor boosters, and all other modules that are supposed to counter an EW ship to increase your ability to fight/lock/move/track EVEN WHEN NOT FIGHTING A EW ship.

ECCMs gimp your fits because you fit them JUST IN CASE THERE IS A FALCON and nothing else.

Sensor boosters don't gimp your fit JUST IN CASE THERE IS AN ARAZU, it helps you out with locking further or locking faster.

Same goes for capboosters, they don't gimp your fit, they are mandatory on Gallente/Amarr ships anyway, and usually usefull on every battleship.

And what is this faggotry about drones ? You can't throw them at a Falcon, because a falcon is usually 100km away from the fight. And don't even think about rushing 50km or so just so you can throw 5 light drones. It's useless.

EDIT : Oh and I forgot the part where a Falcon can COMPLETELY prevent 3 to 4 targets from doing anything, while the other recons can lighly incapacitate 2 targets at most. Don't tell me an Arazu can REALLY incapacitate 4 targets because it has 4 RSDs, or a Curse can incapacitate 4 battleships (Who can avoid that by fitting something usefull, like a capbooster). Oh and the Rapier usually have two webs. Three or four in armor setups, but still, if you want to decrease a target's speed, you want two webs per target. Also, the Rapier is forced to be at medium ranges, while the Falcon can stay at 100/120km all the time.


so the falcon actually acts as a force multiplier, as is its role. Also at 100/120km we're talking about falcons that are already in quite the deep (over 2x) falloff of their jammers, since with max range skills you're looking at 48 opt. + 53falloff for racials and 32 opt + 35 falloff for multis. if you add 2 range rigs, you get a combined optimal+falloff of 67+53, which are your stated 120km.
but then again, at those ranges your jammers are already about half as effective, meaning the 11.25 str racial jammers (max skills no mods), are effectively a 5.8 jammer.

in which case, if your battleships were permajammed by a 5.8 str jammer then you had quite the ******* bad luck.



now that 's all said and done, what's the problem then?


edit: then again, you're a goon so you're probably just trolling.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Smiling Menace
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2011-11-24 13:51:27 UTC
Sobic wrote:
On a serious note: If you could assign drone targets even when jammed. It would balance out ECM even further.


You can kinda. Set your drones to guard someone that's jammed and they do the same, all drones head straight for the jamming ship.

Only really works if you aren't being aggressed by anything else though. Sometimes works very well to the lulz of the fleet when the ECM pilot is thinking 'WTF!?!? I had them all jammed'.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#76 - 2011-11-24 14:07:30 UTC
The only reason this problem exist is the unstobable urge people have to min, max every fit.

People don't want to use anti jamming devices because it, costs dps or tank, which is exactly why it works.

Jaming it self doesn't kill, you can always run. a very usefull stratigy now and then.

When flying with launchers always have a few F.O.F. missles in your cargo hold, falcons don't like to get hit and run rather fast, most of the times.

The only things a Falcon realy can do are fly stealthy, prevent you from killing it and call in the cavalery.
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#77 - 2011-11-24 14:12:08 UTC
I suppose I'm in favour of ecm modules breaking locks, having shorter duration and being chance based. Giving a ship a chance to reacquire a target until a ecm module starts a new cycle.

Instead of not being able to lock a target for 20 seconds and the time it takes for a ship to lock a target again. I don't know! BOOST CALDARI! Then myself and others will be alot more interested in changes to ecm. Also, in larger engagements they use to have less of an effect until the recent use of mass logistic ships. Should reduce logistic ships effectiveness and sensor strength.

I dunno, I've just lost alot of ships recently mostly because of ecm and to be honest. It may have alot more to do with the ships I'm flying now (Gallente) and committing more to engagements (in non-frigate hulls).

Still, not that big of a deal, but if I had to deal with that for along time I'm sure I'd be disgruntled too...


-proxyyyy
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2011-11-24 15:13:10 UTC
Grimpak wrote:

so the falcon actually acts as a force multiplier, as is its role. Also at 100/120km we're talking about falcons that are already in quite the deep (over 2x) falloff of their jammers, since with max range skills you're looking at 48 opt. + 53falloff for racials and 32 opt + 35 falloff for multis. if you add 2 range rigs, you get a combined optimal+falloff of 67+53, which are your stated 120km.
but then again, at those ranges your jammers are already about half as effective, meaning the 11.25 str racial jammers (max skills no mods), are effectively a 5.8 jammer.

in which case, if your battleships were permajammed by a 5.8 str jammer then you had quite the ******* bad luck

now that 's all said and done, what's the problem then?

edit: then again, you're a goon so you're probably just trolling.


What's the problem ? Compare it to Rapiers/Arazus/Curses.

I saw the last Will Adama's video, he was in a Deimos, and he engaged something like 3 drakes, a rapier and a Taranis.

He waited for the Rapier to decloack, he did something clever, he managed to rush toward the rapier, he took it down.

I could take down Will Adaman's Deimos with ANY SHIP + One Falcon, if I had enough DPS to get through his reps.

You still don't see why Falcons > Other recons ?

Because it completely fsck a ship's ability to do anything about what's going on around him for 20s, where other recons force the targetted ships to do something clever/move closer/Capboosters.

AND, you can incapacitate 3/4 targets for 20s cycles (If you don't permajam them, you're still seriously messing with their DPS/remote capabilities), AND you're operating from a VERY long range compared to Rapiers or Curses which only have a 60km (Rapier) or a 37km (Curse) range. AND, ECCMs are only usefull vs Jamming ships, where other defenses against other EWs are usefull even when not encountering EW ships.

That's a bit too much for one EW system. Read my other posts in this thread, I've posted a possible fix to the current situation.

Fake EDIT : Then again, you're someone I don't personally know, so you're probably just trolling. See how ridiculous this is ? What?
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#79 - 2011-11-24 15:29:05 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
The only reason this problem exist is the unstobable urge people have to min, max every fit.

People don't want to use anti jamming devices because it, costs dps or tank, which is exactly why it works.

Jaming it self doesn't kill, you can always run. a very usefull stratigy now and then.



You don't get it, do you ?

Let's set it this way. I'm in an armor hurricane.

Highslots are the usual highslots.

Medslots are MWD, Capbooster, Scrambler, Tracking computer.

Lowslots are 1600mm, EANM x2, DC II, 2 gyros.

What can I remove from the ship in order to fit any kind of anti-ECM module ?

Should I remove my tracking computer ? The only tracking module I have on my ship ?

Should I remove my warp scrambler ? The only thing that prevent my target from warping away ?

Should I remove my prop mod ? Won't even explain why this is ********.

Should I remove my capbooster ? So I can't run my MWD for more than 5/6 cycles with neuts cycling ? What if I encounter a ship that have neutralizers ? Like a Tempest or something like that ?

Should I remove my armor plate ? No, that would be ********.

Should I remove one of my EANMs, well I think 2 EANMs are required in order to have decent resistances.

Should I remove the damage control ? Heck, of course not.

Should I remove one of my damage mods ? Nope, I already have 220mms because 425mms don't fit with a 1600mm plate. If I remove one of the two damage mods I have, what's left ?

And EVEN If I wanted to remove one of those (very important) modules, would it really enhance my ship ?

If I don't encounter an ECM ship : Not at all, it would be one totally wasted medslot/lowslot.

If I encounter an ECM ship : A bit, but since I'm a BC it wouldn't do much against a Falcon anyway.


You can fit ONE ECCM on a Megathron/Abbadon/Tempest because you have barely enough slots (The Megathron/Abbadon have enough lowslots and tanking abilitie to fit a tracking enhancer, and use the now-free tracking computer slot to fit an ECCM, the Tempest have 5 medslots so he can still fit MWD + scrambler + capbooster + tracking comp + ECCM) to do so. But lower tier ships simply can't fit ECCMs (Sensor backup arrays are useless because ECCMs really aren't THAT effective on regular hulls, so 1/2 ECCM won't help at all) because they don't have enough slots. And they won't sacrifice a USEFULL SLOT in order to fit something that MIGHT be SOMEWHAT usefull if they encounter an ECM ship.


And I'm not even talking about active tanking ships, those simply don't have enough slots/CPU to active tank properly, don't even talk about fitting ECCMs on those.
Cartheron Crust
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#80 - 2011-11-24 15:48:45 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
WTB slot 3 booster to increase sensor strength.


Really good idea right here. Idea