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Neut/Web /e-war rebalance ideas
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Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#1 - 2014-01-13 15:38:58 UTC
Webs are definitely OP in its current state the most powerful e-war mods are usually quite weak on on unbonused ships
yet webs operate outside of this sensible system..

Webs
meta 1 ..... 33% strength 9km range 25 cpu
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / 29% strength
meta 3 ..... 20 cpu / 29% strength
meta 4 ..... 10km / 29% strength
meta 5/T2 ..... 40% strength/ 8km range /requires lv5 skill/ 30 cpu
Faction .... 11km/ 18 cpu/ 35% strength /requires lv4 skill

Neuts/Vamps
meta 1 ...... 5km / 10km / 20km
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / decreased strength/amount
meta 3 ..... reduced fitting requirements / decreased strength/amount
meta 4 ..... improved range / decreased strength/amount
meta 5/T2 ..... improved strength/amount / requires lv5 skill/ increased fitting requirements
Faction .... improved range/ reduced fitting requirements/requires lv4 skill

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Ix Method
Doomheim
#2 - 2014-01-13 15:43:40 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Webs are definitely OP in its current state the most powerful e-war mods are usually quite weak on on unbonused ships
yet webs operate outside of this sensible system.

Because you're bunching them in with racial ewar as opposed to scrams, neuts and points where they actually are. Should we be nerfing 'obviously OP' scrams to 4km too?

Travelling at the speed of love.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#3 - 2014-01-13 15:45:48 UTC
Lol

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Swiftstrike1
Swiftstrike Incorporated
#4 - 2014-01-13 16:01:01 UTC
Webs are not OP.

Casual Incursion runner & Faction Warfare grunt, ex-Wormholer, ex-Nullbear.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#5 - 2014-01-13 19:33:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Noxisia Arkana
Going to also have to disagree, I don't see any issues with webs.

edit: I saw your sig. It looks like you have multiple campaigns ongoing (T3s... drone assist).
Amarant'h
Council of Exiles
Brave Collective
#6 - 2014-01-13 19:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Amarant'h
Harvey James wrote:
Webs are definitely OP in its current state the most powerful e-war mods are usually quite weak on on unbonused ships
yet webs operate outside of this sensible system..

Webs
meta 1 ..... 33% strength 9km range 25 cpu
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / 29% strength
meta 3 ..... 20 cpu / 29% strength
meta 4 ..... 10km / 29% strength
meta 5/T2 ..... 40% strength/ 8km range /requires lv5 skill/ 30 cpu
Faction .... 11km/ 18 cpu/ 35% strength /requires lv4 skill

Neuts/Vamps
meta 1 ...... 5km / 10km / 20km
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / decreased strength/amount
meta 3 ..... reduced fitting requirements / decreased strength/amount
meta 4 ..... improved range / decreased strength/amount
meta 5/T2 ..... improved strength/amount / requires lv5 skill/ increased fitting requirements
Faction .... improved range/ reduced fitting requirements/requires lv4 skill


Why dont we just remove every single mod from the game that causes any kind of harm to others? ECM isnt OP, its fully counterable, easily, if you want to spend one slot for eccm, or buy skillbooks, or do both.
ECM is only harm for people that doesent have other accounts, that play alone, and certainly for the people that are stupid. Darw.. well, you know the guy who found out that everything survives for a good reason..
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#7 - 2014-01-14 19:59:50 UTC
Amarant'h wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Webs are definitely OP in its current state the most powerful e-war mods are usually quite weak on on unbonused ships
yet webs operate outside of this sensible system..

Webs
meta 1 ..... 33% strength 9km range 25 cpu
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / 29% strength
meta 3 ..... 20 cpu / 29% strength
meta 4 ..... 10km / 29% strength
meta 5/T2 ..... 40% strength/ 8km range /requires lv5 skill/ 30 cpu
Faction .... 11km/ 18 cpu/ 35% strength /requires lv4 skill

Neuts/Vamps
meta 1 ...... 5km / 10km / 20km
meta 2 ..... reduced cap usage / decreased strength/amount
meta 3 ..... reduced fitting requirements / decreased strength/amount
meta 4 ..... improved range / decreased strength/amount
meta 5/T2 ..... improved strength/amount / requires lv5 skill/ increased fitting requirements
Faction .... improved range/ reduced fitting requirements/requires lv4 skill


Why dont we just remove every single mod from the game that causes any kind of harm to others? ECM isnt OP, its fully counterable, easily, if you want to spend one slot for eccm, or buy skillbooks, or do both.
ECM is only harm for people that doesent have other accounts, that play alone, and certainly for the people that are stupid. Darw.. well, you know the guy who found out that everything survives for a good reason..


actually CCP have said they want to look at the ECM mechanic at some point as they are not fully happy with it.. plus they added sensor comp skills and realistically you only really fit eccm to battleships as most ships below that don't have many slots to throw away on eccm mods .. nothing has been added to counter webs at the strength they are now ..AB's aren't strong enough to counter it and use up too many fittings to be put on without nerfing the rest of the fit with pg rigs..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#8 - 2014-01-14 21:50:34 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Going to also have to disagree, I don't see any issues with webs.

edit: I saw your sig. It looks like you have multiple campaigns ongoing (T3s... drone assist).


consider that webs are more effective than Tracking computers with tracking script it would probably take multiple TC's too do the same thing but ofc webs are like TP's as all ships gain the benefit from it .. the serpentis web thread explained the effects better .. some suggested a 400% tracking boost from a 60% web or was it the 90% one ...
also Rapiers/ long range webbing ships make speed/sig tanking very difficult much more so than TP's on the same ships do thus the reason no one uses the TP bonus on the webbing ships..

look at TP's a kind of inverted web based on sig rather than velocity for tracking its base amount is about 30% only on bonused e-war ships are TP's actually even vaguely competitive with webs..

on my sigs :- i think drone assist is already being pushed by CSM's ... T3's will get nerfed hard by CCP's admission .. and
well ABC's are much like logistics cruisers in using oversized modules .. they really ought to be T2 for that alone ... but ofc we all saw in the thread for rebalancing ABC's that many people felt their dps and projection was too good especially for a easy access ship not too expensive too be used as gankers etc...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Jaz Antollare
SovNarKom.
Goonswarm Federation
#9 - 2014-01-14 23:40:28 UTC
Rework JAM thats all, rlly. All those falcon alts, wtf is that, ***** gameplay. Its mostly useless against large strong ships, and is super effective vs small weak types, where you get no fkin chance to get out of that jam. Ppl count on jam too much, especially in small scale pvp. Jam stands out too much of all the ECM types, why bother using dampeners or turret disruptors, if jam can do it all and better, you successful jam ->cant lock -> cant shoot + hold your opponent = its an ace for most of the situations, no real thinking is involved.

Imo right now, jam has no middle ground either it is totally useless if not specialized, or its totally OP on ships like falcons.

One possible solution for jam would be, it could just reset targets so the enemy needs to lock them again with some penalties. And not making the max target count 0 for 20 seconds.

With the other ECM you at least can DO SOMETHING, with sensor dampeners and turret disruptors you can at least fly closer and try to deal some damage, with jam you just sit on your ass and hope that you wont get jammed after this 20 secs of the first cycle.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#10 - 2014-01-15 00:49:34 UTC
Webs are very good at what they do. To consider them overpowered is... your opinion.

There are counters to webs: range, ECM, blowing the webbing ship up, have friends fly with you that can: blow the other ship up, web them out of your range, or even ECM them. Blink

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Petrified
Old and Petrified Syndication
#11 - 2014-01-15 00:54:52 UTC
Jaz Antollare wrote:

With the other ECM you at least can DO SOMETHING, with sensor dampeners and turret disruptors you can at least fly closer and try to deal some damage, with jam you just sit on your ass and hope that you wont get jammed after this 20 secs of the first cycle.


If you fly a missile boat: you can switch to FoF missiles.
Smart bombs - get close and personal with that ECM ship.
You can counter a falcon with Sensor Damps. A sensor damped falcon pilot is a sad falcon pilot - I know from personal experience.
You can counter ECM with friends blowing the offender up.
You can counter ECM by warping off... unless you are scrammed... then you better hope you have friends. Twisted

Cloaking is the closest thing to a "Pause Game" button one can get while in space.

Support better localization for the Japanese Community.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
Kitchen Sinkhole
#12 - 2014-01-15 01:07:08 UTC
Petrified wrote:
Jaz Antollare wrote:

With the other ECM you at least can DO SOMETHING, with sensor dampeners and turret disruptors you can at least fly closer and try to deal some damage, with jam you just sit on your ass and hope that you wont get jammed after this 20 secs of the first cycle.


If you fly a missile boat: you can switch to FoF missiles.
Smart bombs - get close and personal with that ECM ship.
You can counter a falcon with Sensor Damps. A sensor damped falcon pilot is a sad falcon pilot - I know from personal experience.
You can counter ECM with friends blowing the offender up.
You can counter ECM by warping off... unless you are scrammed... then you better hope you have friends. Twisted



Bouncers are great Falcon punchers Pirate

No trolling please
Mr Beardsley
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2014-01-15 05:56:35 UTC
You know, I've wondered for a long time why there is no anti-web device in the game, similar to a warp stab. There's no question webs are very OP when a couple bonuses will make them almost double as a warp jammer.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2014-01-15 07:50:03 UTC
Mr Beardsley wrote:
You know, I've wondered for a long time why there is no anti-web device in the game, similar to a warp stab. There's no question webs are very OP when a couple bonuses will make them almost double as a warp jammer.


Except that you can, you know, still warp. In fact, you can warp faster.

Unless you're in a bubble, of course. Why'd you go and land in a bubble?
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#15 - 2014-01-15 09:03:45 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Going to also have to disagree, I don't see any issues with webs.

edit: I saw your sig. It looks like you have multiple campaigns ongoing (T3s... drone assist).


The only issue with webs is that some ships are inappropriately bonused for them.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#16 - 2014-01-15 15:32:01 UTC
neuts and i believe nos's got fixed a year or so ago.

Ewar (jams) ECCM, backup arrays, remote ECCM and counter-jamming works on those. also lower tank due to having to use midslots.

webs. range is limited unless with fleet and wing boosts or in a costly ship or ship with special bonuses.

target painters, dont get much use i feel maybe they need a slight % bonus

sensor damps, could also be a counter to ECM range and/or lock speed.

in saying this i do how ever feel Ewar drones could do with a little tweeking... like slightly longer cycle time on ecm drones so if they fail it takes a little longer for them to try re-jam you.

web drones 5x of them only get 25% but also remove your drone dmg if this was doubled they may be of use.

never used sensor damp drones but i think they probably work the same as web drones.

never used neut drones so cannot comment on those.

so all in all ewar seems balanced for the drawbacks

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#17 - 2014-01-15 21:39:10 UTC
nos's got a minor improvement in its mechanics but that's about it and they really need to reduce its pg need..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
sci0gon
Kaira Innovations
#18 - 2014-01-16 00:21:19 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Webs are definitely OP in its current state the most powerful e-war mods are usually quite weak on on unbonused ships


i disagree with that statement and wish there was a down vote option on this forum
Kenrailae
Scrapyard Artificer's
#19 - 2014-01-16 05:01:53 UTC
I keep seeing all these 'webs are OP' threads...... :/

They're not. Plain and simple.

Fact: Falcon can Perma Jam you reliably from WELL beyond web range(with links, ship bonuses and faction webs). As can a Griffin.

Fact: Sensor Damps damp you down to less than 10k targetting range WELL beyond web range... Maulus, Celestis....

Fact: Neuts can shut webs down reliably at comparable ranges to webs simply slowing you down.


Fact: EC-300's can jam P much anything in the game except ships immune to Ewar(read Supers or in Siege, triage, bastion).

Target painters are kinda crap... but that may or may not be a fault of missiles as much as target painters. Tracking computers aren't supposed to suddenly make Medium weapons hit a frigate orbiting @1k/s in a 1k loop. That is what webs are for. TC's are for giving rails or arties that extra bit of tracking to ensure high hit quality on those pesky frigates aligning off gates or station 50k away.


Web's do not require a nerf. They're already nerfed by being a midslot mod and their VERY short range for an Ewar mod.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#20 - 2014-01-16 19:04:01 UTC
well i think TP's are fine actually .. the problem is that webs are so much better... i have a rapier myself and it is armour tanked so it has plenty of free mids to use TP's .. but guess what it is full of webs instead ... and people say webs aren't OP .. please

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
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