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Orca Mining Fleet Boosts persisting through warp/dock
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Professor Ichigo
Doomheim
#1 - 2014-01-14 18:33:23 UTC
Since my first thread of revolutionising mining met some "why?" and "Use an orca" and "you're a bot" responses, I think there is a far more elegant solution.

Currently, I know many orcas that sit in a POS and go AFK, with open fleets to newbie corps and other mining corps, which is a real waste of a character to me (though they are providing a very valuable combined bonus of ~70% to yield). If the orca boosts were to remain active while the orca was in warp and/or docked, then the orca could fulfil it's role of hauling (given it's humongous hauling capability of ~160,000m³), without hindering it's role of enhancing a mining fleet's yield/range. Perhaps just put the mining fleet modules bonuses as ship bonuses, linked to leadership skills, and remove the capacity to fit leadership modules.

Mining fleet bonuses are already unique to other fleet assists, since they will work through a POS shield, where any other off-grid bonus command ship has to be outside the POS shield and susceptible to gank.

TL;DR: Orca fleet bonuses remain active while warping/docked so it can be an effective hauler as it was intended to be.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-01-14 20:10:52 UTC
Bonuses while DOCKED?

So even in nullsec, your booster doesn't even experience one microscopic little fraction of a risk? If you're in a tower you can be bumped out by spies/passwords/etc, but docked? Nope, completley invulnerable.

Now, explain why you should be able to gain these boosts from someone who can't even be awoxed.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-01-14 20:24:08 UTC
Professor Ichigo wrote:
Since my first thread of revolutionising mining met some "why?" and "Use an orca" and "you're a bot" responses, I think there is a far more elegant solution.

Currently, I know many orcas that sit in a POS and go AFK, with open fleets to newbie corps and other mining corps, which is a real waste of a character to me (though they are providing a very valuable combined bonus of ~70% to yield). If the orca boosts were to remain active while the orca was in warp and/or docked, then the orca could fulfil it's role of hauling (given it's humongous hauling capability of ~160,000m³), without hindering it's role of enhancing a mining fleet's yield/range. Perhaps just put the mining fleet modules bonuses as ship bonuses, linked to leadership skills, and remove the capacity to fit leadership modules.

Mining fleet bonuses are already unique to other fleet assists, since they will work through a POS shield, where any other off-grid bonus command ship has to be outside the POS shield and susceptible to gank.

TL;DR: Orca fleet bonuses remain active while warping/docked so it can be an effective hauler as it was intended to be.


Syncronize your harvester and you will be able to warp-dock-unload-undock-give boost for next cycle-warp back to belt for new load/next cycle.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2014-01-14 20:28:30 UTC
Personally i never understood the whole not being able to boost while warping thing. I guess warping around the whole time would make you practically invulnerable so long as you don't warp to a bubble or end up within point range by the time you align to warp.
JamnOne
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-01-14 20:38:38 UTC
I have to agree with Danica - bonuses while docked is a bad idea.

As for giving mining bonuses while in the bubble, since you brought it up CCP will now look into it and possibly fix that.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2014-01-14 20:51:36 UTC
Mining links boosting from a POS bubble was only left until they have the chance to do a balance pass in industrial command ships.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#7 - 2014-01-14 20:52:05 UTC
JamnOne wrote:
I have to agree with Danica - bonuses while docked is a bad idea.

As for giving mining bonuses while in the bubble, since you brought it up CCP will now look into it and possibly fix that.

I highly doubt that.

Mining boost ships, such as the Orca & Rorqual, are not balanced to be required having such vulnerability.
Their sole defense scheme is evasion.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Zerlestes
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-14 21:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Zerlestes
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid
Professor Ichigo
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-01-14 21:08:41 UTC
Zerlestes wrote:
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid



Well yeah, this is quite right, docked does seem a bit imbalanced, so what about just in warp?
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2014-01-14 21:36:58 UTC
Professor Ichigo wrote:
Zerlestes wrote:
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid



Well yeah, this is quite right, docked does seem a bit imbalanced, so what about just in warp?


Then you're still invulnerable 99.9% of the time. A properly set up series of bookmakers would make this just as safe as a station.
Professor Ichigo
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-01-14 21:41:48 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Professor Ichigo wrote:
Zerlestes wrote:
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid



Well yeah, this is quite right, docked does seem a bit imbalanced, so what about just in warp?


Then you're still invulnerable 99.9% of the time. A properly set up series of bookmakers would make this just as safe as a station.


If your orca pilot is that active, then it's just as safe as being sat in a POS too... what's your point?
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#12 - 2014-01-14 21:43:35 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Professor Ichigo wrote:
Zerlestes wrote:
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid



Well yeah, this is quite right, docked does seem a bit imbalanced, so what about just in warp?


Then you're still invulnerable 99.9% of the time. A properly set up series of bookmakers would make this just as safe as a station.

With enough preparation, many things can be relatively quite safe.

Right now, the comparison is to sitting behind POS shields. Even with limited exposure from properly placed BMs available, that is not the absolute safety of sitting in the POS, all snug with a mug of hot cocoa.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#13 - 2014-01-14 21:46:41 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Bonuses while DOCKED?

So even in nullsec, your booster doesn't even experience one microscopic little fraction of a risk? If you're in a tower you can be bumped out by spies/passwords/etc, but docked? Nope, completley invulnerable.

Now, explain why you should be able to gain these boosts from someone who can't even be awoxed.



I'm kinda ok with 'while in warp,' but I agree that docked is no bueno.
Professor Ichigo
Doomheim
#14 - 2014-01-14 21:48:31 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Professor Ichigo wrote:
Zerlestes wrote:
as long it is aktive in warp unload the ore dosnt cost much time

i also agree that the orca and rorqual needs to be rebalanced befor the boost goes ongrid



Well yeah, this is quite right, docked does seem a bit imbalanced, so what about just in warp?


Then you're still invulnerable 99.9% of the time. A properly set up series of bookmakers would make this just as safe as a station.

With enough preparation, many things can be relatively quite safe.

Right now, the comparison is to sitting behind POS shields. Even with limited exposure from properly placed BMs available, that is not the absolute safety of sitting in the POS, all snug with a mug of hot cocoa.


Quite right. The whole idea behind this thread is to allow an orca to haul without losing boosts. In my home systems, I have at least 1 tower across 4 systems, giving me 4 systems worth of mining with a safe orca haven to afk in. At least if these changes get implemented, my orca will be slightly more AT risk from actually BEING USED and leaving the bubble, no hot of mug coca, just the cold depths of space Pirate
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-01-16 05:17:52 UTC
Solution:


Use 2 orca's.


1 boosting, 1 hauling.


Or.... IDK... a newly rebalanced industrial designed to haul ore....

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#16 - 2014-01-16 14:15:43 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
Solution:


Use 2 orca's.


1 boosting, 1 hauling.


Or.... IDK... a newly rebalanced industrial designed to haul ore....

I dunno about this, it has the wrong feel to it.

I like players who multibox just fine, but I don't want this to be the only good answer for those who can't reliably be online with enough friends.
If bring more people were the answer, the question would never have any traction in the first place, and multiboxing has a few pay to win aspects which not everyone has fair access to.

I feel we need to consider improving the existing options. We are already dealing with at least two accounts, (probably more to justify the math), whether multiboxed or individual players.

Telling people they need an additional dedicated hauler sounds wrong.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2014-01-16 14:41:39 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
Solution:


Use 2 orca's.


1 boosting, 1 hauling.


Or.... IDK... a newly rebalanced industrial designed to haul ore....

I dunno about this, it has the wrong feel to it.

I like players who multibox just fine, but I don't want this to be the only good answer for those who can't reliably be online with enough friends.
If bring more people were the answer, the question would never have any traction in the first place, and multiboxing has a few pay to win aspects which not everyone has fair access to.

I feel we need to consider improving the existing options. We are already dealing with at least two accounts, (probably more to justify the math), whether multiboxed or individual players.

Telling people they need an additional dedicated hauler sounds wrong.



Very well, I want my Damnation links to be allowed back inside POS's, to persist through warp, and while you're at it, I want a 300% damage bonus to the 2 launchers I can actually fit to my Damnation.



There are 0 situations in Eve where you should ever be 100% safe, barring 1: Docked. Everything else has to have some risk/reward trade off to it.


Every one of these 'make my orca easier' threads quotes 2 hulks at the going rate for filling an Orca. So you need 2 hulks, an orca, and a miasmos to run 'smoothly.' That's not too many people, is it? Eve should have no 'I win' buttons for anything.

One of my other Char's is a max skilled Orca.

No. The Orca does NOT need to be made into even more of an Easy mode for high sec.


Telling people they should be able to just waltz around in their 1 man band wagon's and expect to get all the benefits of playing with people(as Eve is designed to be played) is more wrong.


Trade off: Play alone or in a small group, lose the benefits of playing with other people.
Play with larger groups, more risk of ganks/theft/etc, get the benefits of everyone's resources being put together.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Electrique Wizard
Mutually Lucrative Business Proposals
#18 - 2014-01-16 14:45:43 UTC
I completely agree links on an orca should change, enforcing its role more. The links should only function when on-grid.

I am the Zodiac, I am the stars, You are the sorceress, my priestess of Mars, Queen of the night, swathed in satin black, Your ivory flesh upon my torture rack.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#19 - 2014-01-16 15:07:23 UTC
Electrique Wizard wrote:
I completely agree links on an orca should change, enforcing its role more. The links should only function when on-grid.

Sounds great.

While they are at it, they can balance this by keeping the ship survivable under these conditions, equal to it's current levels.

I mean, seriously, the ship is already balanced to have the current level of risk, jacking it up so it is useless in it's role due to trivial survivability is a joke anyone could recognize.

And Kenrailae, the follow through on your suggestion would be to change the Damnation INTO the new Orca.

Keep it's defense, and it's offense, but add to it the following:

All of the Orca's storage, SMB and refitting functionality.
All of the Orca's mining boost functionality.

At that point, it would be balanced to operate on grid exclusively for boosts.

The expectation of more fights while mining might be realistic to expect, then.
It really would be the killer whale the Orca is named for.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Dave Stark
#20 - 2014-01-16 15:47:37 UTC
while docked is a terrible idea.

while warping, meh, sure, i have no opposition to this.
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