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[Proposal]Repeating ship bumping in higsec space should attract concord's attention

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Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#21 - 2013-10-29 13:12:29 UTC
If you criminalize bumping someone, I swear I shall sit on the Jita undock with an alt in a Charon and rack up killmails.

The problem with criminalizing an otherwise innocuous act, nevermind that it's petty and childish, is that because a considerable portion of the time the act is commited, it's accidental without harm intended.

You could, instead, just not be afk. I mean, I suppose it's technically easier to complain on the forums than push the "orbit" button, but even so, I'd go ahead and put in the extra effort while mining, were I you.

As for escorts, L2 escort and double web.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#22 - 2013-10-29 13:23:05 UTC
An important thing to remember....anything you get, I also get. Keep that in mind, when advocating for these changes.

It'd sure make ganking cheaper for one. Two noob ships. Noob ship A bumps the miner into noob ship B. Concord responds. Blaps Ship A for bumping the miner, then blaps the miner for bumping ship B.


Us gankers have come up with an awesome solution to bumping. Give miners a siege module, that locks them in place. Locked to one spot for a 15 minute cycle time. Can't move, or be moved an inch. I'm positive there's no way that could be used for nefarious purposes, and it's exactly what miners want.




That was sarcasm, if you didn't catch it.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-10-29 15:03:12 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
An important thing to remember....anything you get, I also get. Keep that in mind, when advocating for these changes.

It'd sure make ganking cheaper for one. Two noob ships. Noob ship A bumps the miner into noob ship B. Concord responds. Blaps Ship A for bumping the miner, then blaps the miner for bumping ship B.


Us gankers have come up with an awesome solution to bumping. Give miners a siege module, that locks them in place. Locked to one spot for a 15 minute cycle time. Can't move, or be moved an inch. I'm positive there's no way that could be used for nefarious purposes, and it's exactly what miners want.




That was sarcasm, if you didn't catch it.


Just as well that it's sarcasm, because siege mode doesn't work that way anyway. You can very definitely still be moved. Blink

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Lady Areola Fappington
#24 - 2013-10-30 03:21:49 UTC
mynnna wrote:

Just as well that it's sarcasm, because siege mode doesn't work that way anyway. You can very definitely still be moved. Blink


True enough, yup. I suppose I was using "siege mode" in a generic way.

Still, please, please give miners they're much requested space anchor. I'd have zero problems with a miner stuck in one spot for 15 minutes.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kyalla Ahashion
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2013-11-05 10:44:47 UTC
Hesod Adee wrote:
How exactly will Eve determine which ship bumped the other ?

Because people will attempt to exploit whatever algorithm CCP uses.

What happens when someone tries to play docking games at Jita 4-4 ?
Won't they keep hitting ships every time they undock ?


The algorithm could be relatively simple. Base it on what navigation command was last issued. If it was to approach an object, or to manually fly via double clicking, treat it as a bump, but only once per navigation command. Orbiting. keep at range, undocking, and aligning actions (or simply flying in a direction you are already pointed) would not be tracked as bumping, thus eliminating most accidental bumps from consideration, while making it relatively difficult to bump repeatedly AND intentionally.

Allow half a dozen bumps or so before CONCORD warns them to knock it off "Reckless Pilot Warning" , then 2-3 more after that before a suspect flag. After the reckless pilot warning is given, if the player has green safeties on, the navigation commands which can produce a suspect command should ask for confirmation of those commands.

It might also be worthwhile to use the same algorithm with different rules for ships knocked out of alignment as they are trying to warp, giving them an "impeding navigation warning", with a chance of getting a criminal flag if they are still on grid when a ship they just bumped is criminally attacked. This would address the problem of "outside assistance" in suicide ganks (The chances of this could be based on hidden factors, such as past use of outside assistance by the ganker, and how close the interfering pilot still is when concord shows up.)
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#26 - 2013-11-06 07:48:56 UTC
Suspect flags for miner bumping will create more opportunities for PvP!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Homem na Estrada
#27 - 2013-11-06 09:00:41 UTC
After reading a lot responses here, all I see is the common place in a lot of threads, discuss an issue that is a consequence as if it was a cause. Bump is a normal game mechanics that can serve to a fair purpouse within the game universe, and it is just a way of harassing people because SOMETHING else the game mechanics allow, not the bumping perse.

Bumping can be not only a annoying thing, but a regular strategy we use in our industrial only corporation to help in gate camping counter actions, pirate persuit and emergency warp delaying until interdictors arrive. The problem is not the mechanic of bumping, but the strange thinking behind CCP development team that for honest naiveness or condescending dismissal, impress on texts how EVE players are, and how EVE universe is, when everyone know that a small fraction of people is remotely like the way they say eve players are, and a very few people is or ever will be able to enjoy the game as they say it is.

I sure have nothing to complain about EVE. It is the way I first found it interesting and still is, and it is unique among MMOs. The thing is, it is not due to the reasons the site adverts it is, but it is unique in the sense that no MMO out there has such lack of regard in giving people equal chances to achieve goals.

In WoW a lvl 90 (is there 90 already ?) say, warrior, can one shot a dozen newly created chars, which prevents groups newly created with the sole purpouse of doing that. In EVE, someone like that famous guy can alone create a dozen chars that need a few days only to be able to do lone ganking. But, you usually will find people with 2 or 3 accounts that want to get together to do a ganking fast. You can use 1 week chars to do a lot of things that wont even reflect after you delete them. Damn, 7 people can plex their way into making a whole 1.0 hisec system into a death trap for weeks.

And people still complaining about bumping.

There are two powers: Power of Numbers and Power of Leadership They compensate or add to each other, but nothing compensates or add to having neither. Politics: If you dont use it, it will use you.

Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#28 - 2013-11-13 08:54:13 UTC
I very much doubt that we need more CONCORD intervention.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#29 - 2013-11-17 17:25:04 UTC
Headline :
80 Man Friendly fleet at war slaughtered by concord after being stupid enough to orbit gate at 2,500 and colliding with each other.

Think your ideas through OP. Roll

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#30 - 2013-11-22 14:11:23 UTC
What I see here is just a bunch of a-bloo-bloo-bloo because someone bumped their ship prior to violencing their boat, and they were either AFK, or just far too stupid to move out of the trajectory of the oncoming ship.

Works as intended, and if you can't take it, take the following measures to correct this problem:

- Give me your stuff
- Biomass

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#31 - 2013-11-28 10:58:09 UTC
The tears from people who get bumped are delicious.

The tears from the exact same people after they were instantly killed upon undocking from a market after implementing their own poorly thought out ideas would be equally delicious though.

It's win win for my tear bucket
Megan Lynn Tsero
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-13 00:05:26 UTC
After having read through this post and all the links a situation with bumping does need to be evaluated by CCP.

ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.

Bumping had been in the game for a long time however it is now being used instead of a trigger. This is also very wide spread and spreading wider. I can see a day when no one will use capital freighters to move material. You have an economist on staff, ask him the effect on the EVE economy when goods are no longer transported. Once freighters are extinct the industrials will be next and they don't need as many in the gank squad to kill it.

So the high points are:
Bumping to keep a slow, defenseless ship in high sec from warping.
No concord attention.
Miners and freighters classed together (totally different activities)

Game mechanics and/or recognizing the aggression exhibited need a serious look.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#33 - 2014-01-13 01:42:37 UTC
Omg this thread again... please CCP do it! For 48 hours only enable suspect flag for bumping. So maybe they'll get the point.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#34 - 2014-01-13 16:03:16 UTC
Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:
ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.


45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you.

Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap.
Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#35 - 2014-01-14 15:44:31 UTC
Endovior wrote:
Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:
ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.


45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you.

Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap.

Sure, because it's completely possible to 'bail someone out' when you have 20+ ships throwing a one-shot alpha at a freighter.

We'll ignore your stupid post for today.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#36 - 2014-01-14 21:38:30 UTC
Quote:
So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.


I found your problem.

If you were dumb enough to carry that much in a freighter, you deserve what you got.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Endovior
PFU Consortium
#37 - 2014-01-14 23:10:32 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
Endovior wrote:
Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:
ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.


45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you.

Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap.

Sure, because it's completely possible to 'bail someone out' when you have 20+ ships throwing a one-shot alpha at a freighter.

We'll ignore your stupid post for today.


Firstly, notice that my point was specifically in regards to the implausible situation of a bumper holding a freighter in place for 45 minutes. If you can't figure out some way to deal with a little bumpy frigate in that amount of time, you deserve what's coming to you. Obviously, if you're alone in space unable to flee and the gank squad is already on top of your defenceless freighter, your losing mistake was made a long time ago... but the story is different if you're caught by an opportunistic bumper who doesn't have a gank squad present, and is trying to call one in to deal with you. Much like with a tackled capital, that IS a window of time in which it IS possible to respond.

Secondly... one-shot alpha? Freighter? Usually not, no. Sure, there IS a number/composition of ships which can pull off the feat, but that tends to be a losing proposition (remember, gankers rely on that window of time between initial aggression and CONCORD's arrival to kill harder targets). At the very least, you could pre-summon CONCORD (read, have your buddy shoot their bumper, hopefully killing him, before dying to CONCORD in turn), which changes the ganking equation pretty unfavorably, since with CONCORD on the field, gankers will more or less instantly die after aggressing. Sure, it's possible that they brought enough DPS to win anyways, but the numbers are worse than even a gank in 1.0; not perfect protection, but if you've been at all sensible with your cargo value, you've just guaranteed a loss to the gankers.
Kyon Rheyne
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2014-04-10 20:16:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyon Rheyne
Endovior wrote:


45 minutes. That's a long time.


Yes. And it's actually THE case where abnormalilty of bumping ship owner's behaviour SHOULD be obvious to law enforcing authorities. In fact, it SHOULD be much less span of a time. Like, repeating bumping for 5 to 10 minutes. And if its too quick for you, that amateurish bunch of gangsters you are running obviously needs a proper training program prescribed to them. At least put some effort and soul in the "job" you enlisted for, okaaaay?
But prosecution by deadly force is too much, indeed Just webifiying to zero all those who were bumping and will be trying to bump after for some period of time will be enough. All timers can be tied to the actual sec level of the solar system.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#39 - 2014-04-14 21:09:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lilly Naari
Endovior wrote:
Megan Lynn Tsero wrote:
ACTUAL EVENT: You load your Charon with 923,000 M3 of material to transport to Hek. Along the way You exit a gate and are singled out by a bumper. For the next 45 minutes (while you are trying to escape) the bumper continues to hold you from going to warp. Since a Charon can not be fit, and has such a great top speed it is easy to see where this is going. The bumper receives no damage to his ship and is not flagged for this activity. When the gank crew arrives you die. You can not get away, go to another location etc. You would like to do that very thing. So in the end you loose the 1.6 billion isk ship and the 4.5 billion isk collateral for the load.


45 minutes. That's a long time. If this is such a widespread problem, you'd think that freighter pilots would start hiring escorts to protect them. Or, alternately, that they'd have guys on-call in their corp/alliance to come bail them out when they get caught. Heck, if you're 'actively trying to escape' during that time, you'd probably have time to hire in-game mercenaries to come save you. But any of that would require you to interact with other players, so I can see where it holds a difficulty for you.

Given that, as a freighter pilot, you probably could use someone to web you anyways, it's really not much of a stretch to have that same guy fit for suicide ganking, so that in an emergency, he can trade himself for a bumper to let you escape a trap.


lol what good is calling corp mates to help you in highsec against a bumper who is not criminally flagged and probably in a ship that would take more then the freighters worth to gank effectively? Not to mention the loss of the corps ships for the suicide?

Also a freighter is so big and has so much mass the bumper could miss 5 times and still have another go at bumping you out of alignment before you warped. On average it takes a freighter 3-5 minuets to align and warp. The bumper is not going to be distracted by your corp mates that long, if at all. Unless one of them wants to sacrifice a ship to save you by either scramming and webbing the bumper and even then concord is going to kill him and the bumper is going to continue bumping you before you can warp.

Really man. You should think more before commenting.

Just one of the many reason I do not carry more then 500 mil of stuff in my freighter and even then I only carry minerals, and nothing even remotely useful or worth ganking for. And why my freighter is always insured. Does it take me more time to do stuff? sure. Do gankers leave me alone? Yep because I am not worth the time or effort.
Lilly Naari
Enclave Security Forces
#40 - 2014-04-14 21:14:54 UTC
Kyon Rheyne wrote:
Endovior wrote:


45 minutes. That's a long time.


Yes. And it's actually THE case where abnormalilty of bumping ship owner's behaviour SHOULD be obvious to law enforcing authorities. In fact, it SHOULD be much less span of a time. Like, repeating bumping for 5 to 10 minutes. And if its too quick for you, that amateurish bunch of gangsters you are running obviously needs a proper training program prescribed to them. At least put some effort and soul in the "job" you enlisted for, okaaaay?
But prosecution by deadly force is too much, indeed Just webifiying to zero all those who were bumping and will be trying to bump after for some period of time will be enough. All timers can be tied to the actual sec level of the solar system.


Just give them a suspect flag, trust me they'll be dead in seconds.
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