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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#681 - 2014-01-14 11:48:51 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.


I'd imagine it would be even cheaper to import human capital. Import miners and industrialists to nullsec. Show them the wonders of the untamed wilds of New Eden. Care for them as you would any investment. Pay them an honest wage. And stop shooting at them.

The reason this would be difficult is that you and others in Null have spent the past 5 years or more being shitboxes to these people.

You're asking for CCP to step in and modify game mechanics because you simply can't be bothered to be ******* nice to people.

Emergent gameplay does not always have to involve asshattery. It can also involve actually building an Empire and not something that resembles Somalia.


This is true, it is also the other end of the same spectrum when comparing to boring high sec miners who constantly complain that mommyCCP isnt doing enough to stop gankers that they should be organising and planning around stopping themselves.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#682 - 2014-01-14 11:51:44 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.


I'd imagine it would be even cheaper to import human capital. Import miners and industrialists to nullsec. Show them the wonders of the untamed wilds of New Eden. Care for them as you would any investment. Pay them an honest wage. And stop shooting at them.

The reason this would be difficult is that you and others in Null have spent the past 5 years or more being shitboxes to these people.

You're asking for CCP to step in and modify game mechanics because you simply can't be bothered to be ******* nice to people.

Emergent gameplay does not always have to involve asshattery. It can also involve actually building an Empire and not something that resembles Somalia.


There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

We do however have a very large industry base in empire that supply us.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#683 - 2014-01-14 11:56:54 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


This is true, it is also the other end of the same spectrum when comparing to boring high sec miners who constantly complain that mommyCCP isnt doing enough to stop gankers that they should be organising and planning around stopping themselves.

Except most high sec miners don't do that. Only a few vocal ones do, some of which are certainly ganker alts doing it in a deliberate troll to stir an opposite reaction using reverse psychology. This is EVE after all. Metagame included.

As for Baltec1, LMAO. The Miners obviously exist since the minerals exist. And Null mining is more profitable per hour than High Sec mining. If for no other reason than Rorq boosts that would be true. However larger roids also mean less dead time mining when it has hit 0, and auto respawning anoms mean unlimited ore in a single system so less waste time moving across multiple systems. As well as high end ores which also now contain large amounts of low end minerals ensuring they will always be more valuable to mine.
So..... why are they so spread out when anoms respawn again?

So, if you can't get the miners to Null, you really only have yourselves to blame for creating a null sec environment where they don't believe you can/will keep them safe.

P.S. Nullsec does pay the same costs as high sec for actual industry lines. Unless you are taxing them which is a CHOICE.
And Null Miners make more profit....
So..... You do have it better than High already.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#684 - 2014-01-14 12:01:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Ramona McCandless
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


This is true, it is also the other end of the same spectrum when comparing to boring high sec miners who constantly complain that mommyCCP isnt doing enough to stop gankers that they should be organising and planning around stopping themselves.

Except most high sec miners don't do that. Only a few vocal ones do, some of which are certainly ganker alts doing it in a deliberate troll to stir an opposite reaction using reverse psychology. This is EVE after all. Metagame included.


What is that based on?

You are saying that all massive threads about how unsafe highsec is are ganker alts?

And that all the tears posted on Minerbumping are alts are made up?

Sorry, no. Thats simply not true.

And to reduce the cost of living in Null to the cost of industry lines... well you clearly have no idea what living in Null is like.

In short, Im guessing you are a WH dweller given how little an understanding how people are reacting and what its actually like out there at either end of the scale.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#685 - 2014-01-14 12:02:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

We do however have a very large industry base in empire that supply us.


And this everyone, is why we stay in HS.

This is the one and only reason. Do not lie to yourselves, it ill becomes you.
Prince Kobol
#686 - 2014-01-14 12:03:26 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
ECM drones, Skirmish links, heck, ECM itself would have impact.
Sure, a full Inty fleet might actually get you. Though they sure aren't getting a procurer fleet in under a minute unless there are a heck of a lot of them and I hope your intel channels would warn you about 200 Inties heading your way.

Also, Jump Freighters, why the hell would you use jump freighters if you aren't jumping. My whole point was that there are other ships like, oh, normal freighters, or more likely since it's a short distance you should be moving things, cargo rigged blockade runners. Since your intel channels should be capable of telling you if anyone is sitting on those few gates between your locations.

As for goons? To my knowledge, all the large null entities have a rep for screwing over industrialists, it's not just goons, they just have the worst rep.

Covert Cyno? So..... You weren't watching local then were you? Since it has to warp to you, find you on the first warp magically (If it takes time to deep scan it has to find you on the first scan), drop it's cyno then you still be on grid waiting to die. Bombs? Feel free to give me the actual maths on how many bombs it takes to insti pop a procurer that's fitted decently.

The Rewards are greater for Null miners. About double for the same time what high sec miners can turn between the higher end options and the better boosts.
Risks, sure, they are greater too. All you are saying is you aren't prepared to take any at all. In effect, you are just as carebear as any high sec player you care to abuse.

P.S. Been there, done PvP, am I a PvP god, nope. Do I know the sensible basics enough to know when you are just trying to spin a sob story about how evil null sec is and how you can't undock with dying. Yep.



The fact is any red fleet reported near you and will will dock up.. lost time.

No mining fleet can defend itself against a pvp fleet, end off. You either dock up or die.

Even normal freighters will die because you know if they are risking moving a number of freighters which it will take because we are talking about a massive number of materials, try building a cap sometime and you will see, then its worth killing.

Blockade runners to move that much material.. it would take you weeks in not months, at least make a sensible suggestion.

As for intel channels, sure they will tell you there is a red cloaked up in system and that is it. If you decide to move a train of freighter then you deserve to lose them.

Please prove how all null sec alliances have screwed over industrialists.

You have no idea how quick you can scan down ships now do you. As I said before, if you haven't docked up when your Intel channel reported a red and that red jumps into your system, you will die as you will not warp before they land on you.

Also a lot of campers will sit offline in your system. they will be be able to land on grid before you manage to warp away, bubble and light their cyno. I know because I have seen it happen enough times now.

As for bombs.. who said anything about insta popping, a couple of bombs and you have no drones so what you going to defend yourself with now Big smile

According to you a miner can make more isk per hour mining in a procurer then a he can make in a exhumer in HS.. really? You sure.

Unless you are saying that he can mine for hours on end in null, which he wont be able to where as he can in HS and in a better ship, semi afk, with perfect orca boosts, with perfect refinery, with lots of free manufacturing slots.

You claim you pvp'ed have yet you seem to think a group of procurer's can take out a Inty fleet....
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#687 - 2014-01-14 12:06:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

We do however have a very large industry base in empire that supply us.

And now we know you are delusional.
Lets slap you with some real numbers.
Tippia says 68,000 slots in High sec. Sounds good enough for me.
Assumption. 50% are empty. You all go on about how so many slots are empty if you move away from the trade hubs. So sounds a reasonable ratio.
You also go on about how no significant industry (Exception, Caps/Supers) happens outside of high.

So. 34,000 slots supply New Eden, meaning 34,000 slots for over 500,000 players.

Goons are less than 50,000 players. So less than 10% of EVE. Lets assume for a minute you were 50,000 though to take a massively high end figure. Not sure if that is the alliance or the entire coalition.

34,000*10% = 3,400.
3,400 slots required to supply the Goons.
This is 10-15 Amarr outposts with industrial upgrades. Depending how efficiently you use the slots bonus times. Given goons, I imagine you would manage them pretty well, so lets say 10. (420 maximum potential per outpost, so I'm allowing for about 25% inefficiency here already)
Goons have what, 220 Sov systems between the alliance?
So.... That's about 1 outpost per 20 systems you control. You have 90 outposts already for that matter. So that's 1 Amarr outpost per 9 outposts you ALREADY HAVE.

So..... You are trying to convince me that you don't have a place for the industrialists? The Numbers show you are either lying, or simply haven't tried to provide for them. And are just trying to get High Sec nerfed into the ground so you can make even more isk.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#688 - 2014-01-14 12:08:39 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
There's a fool born every minute, but even in eve I don't think many would view an offer from GS to "Come out, you stay neutral and mine, I promise we won't shoot you, wink wink" to be even a remote possibility.


And who's fault do you think that is? Do you really believe it's CCP's responsibility to fix this pickle GS is in? They blow up low end miners. Now they're short on low end minerals. Of course they're going to have a hell of a time recruiting low end miners. It'd be naïve to think otherwise. Some how they need to fix this themselves. But of course, the easiest solution is to whine to CCP to fix it for them Blink.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#689 - 2014-01-14 12:08:43 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


This is true, it is also the other end of the same spectrum when comparing to boring high sec miners who constantly complain that mommyCCP isnt doing enough to stop gankers that they should be organising and planning around stopping themselves.

Except most high sec miners don't do that. Only a few vocal ones do, some of which are certainly ganker alts doing it in a deliberate troll to stir an opposite reaction using reverse psychology. This is EVE after all. Metagame included.

As for Baltec1, LMAO. The Miners obviously exist since the minerals exist. And Null mining is more profitable per hour than High Sec mining. If for no other reason than Rorq boosts that would be true. However larger roids also mean less dead time mining when it has hit 0, and auto respawning anoms mean unlimited ore in a single system so less waste time moving across multiple systems. As well as high end ores which also now contain large amounts of low end minerals ensuring they will always be more valuable to mine.
So..... why are they so spread out when anoms respawn again?

So, if you can't get the miners to Null, you really only have yourselves to blame for creating a null sec environment where they don't believe you can/will keep them safe.

P.S. Nullsec does pay the same costs as high sec for actual industry lines. Unless you are taxing them which is a CHOICE.
And Null Miners make more profit....
So..... You do have it better than High already.


Wrong again.

You cannot stuff several hundred miners into a system just like how you cannot stuff several hundred ratters in a single system. The number of miners we would need to supply the minerals will number tens of thousands, the CFC would need to double in size. All of these miners would need the space to mine in, which is a lot and it would be impossible to provide refineries and production station for even half of them and that's before we even factor in the cost of these outposts and upgrades.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#690 - 2014-01-14 12:09:18 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Lets slap you with some real numbers.


Assumption. 50% are empty.


Terrible

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#691 - 2014-01-14 12:11:17 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
There's a fool born every minute, but even in eve I don't think many would view an offer from GS to "Come out, you stay neutral and mine, I promise we won't shoot you, wink wink" to be even a remote possibility.


And who's fault do you think that is? Do you really believe it's CCP's responsibility to fix this pickle GS is in? They blow up low end miners. Now they're short on low end minerals. Of course they're going to have a hell of a time recruiting low end miners. It'd be naïve to think otherwise. Some how they need to fix this themselves. But of course, the easiest solution is to whine to CCP to fix it for them Blink.


What difference does it make who it is?

Why concentrate on GS specifically?

CoT have recently taken on a terrible mining corp and handed them a system in Venal

I saw a BL fleet heading that way late last night

I wonder if they got out alive

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#692 - 2014-01-14 12:12:06 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

We do however have a very large industry base in empire that supply us.

And now we know you are delusional.
Lets slap you with some real numbers.
Tippia says 68,000 slots in High sec. Sounds good enough for me.
Assumption. 50% are empty. You all go on about how so many slots are empty if you move away from the trade hubs. So sounds a reasonable ratio.
You also go on about how no significant industry (Exception, Caps/Supers) happens outside of high.

So. 34,000 slots supply New Eden, meaning 34,000 slots for over 500,000 players.

Goons are less than 50,000 players. So less than 10% of EVE. Lets assume for a minute you were 50,000 though to take a massively high end figure. Not sure if that is the alliance or the entire coalition.

34,000*10% = 3,400.
3,400 slots required to supply the Goons.
This is 10-15 Amarr outposts with industrial upgrades. Depending how efficiently you use the slots bonus times. Given goons, I imagine you would manage them pretty well, so lets say 10. (420 maximum potential per outpost, so I'm allowing for about 25% inefficiency here already)
Goons have what, 220 Sov systems between the alliance?
So.... That's about 1 outpost per 20 systems you control. You have 90 outposts already for that matter. So that's 1 Amarr outpost per 9 outposts you ALREADY HAVE.

So..... You are trying to convince me that you don't have a place for the industrialists? The Numbers show you are either lying, or simply haven't tried to provide for them. And are just trying to get High Sec nerfed into the ground so you can make even more isk.


As I have told you seven times now, null sec products are more expensive than importing high sec products. It doesnt matter how many slots you give us so long as high sec has near no costs they will beat us on price and thus, industry in null is not an option.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#693 - 2014-01-14 12:14:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us. When they become useful to us then we will take them in.

We do however have a very large industry base in empire that supply us.

And now we know you are delusional.
Lets slap you with some real numbers.
Tippia says 68,000 slots in High sec. Sounds good enough for me.
Assumption. 50% are empty. You all go on about how so many slots are empty if you move away from the trade hubs. So sounds a reasonable ratio.
You also go on about how no significant industry (Exception, Caps/Supers) happens outside of high.

So. 34,000 slots supply New Eden, meaning 34,000 slots for over 500,000 players.

Goons are less than 50,000 players. So less than 10% of EVE. Lets assume for a minute you were 50,000 though to take a massively high end figure. Not sure if that is the alliance or the entire coalition.

34,000*10% = 3,400.
3,400 slots required to supply the Goons.
This is 10-15 Amarr outposts with industrial upgrades. Depending how efficiently you use the slots bonus times. Given goons, I imagine you would manage them pretty well, so lets say 10. (420 maximum potential per outpost, so I'm allowing for about 25% inefficiency here already)
Goons have what, 220 Sov systems between the alliance?
So.... That's about 1 outpost per 20 systems you control. You have 90 outposts already for that matter. So that's 1 Amarr outpost per 9 outposts you ALREADY HAVE.

So..... You are trying to convince me that you don't have a place for the industrialists? The Numbers show you are either lying, or simply haven't tried to provide for them. And are just trying to get High Sec nerfed into the ground so you can make even more isk.


As I have told you seven times now, null sec products are more expensive than importing high sec products. It doesnt matter how many slots you give us so long as high sec has near no costs they will beat us on price and thus, industry in null is not an option.


What are those costs? Give some numbers, estimates, anything...
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#694 - 2014-01-14 12:14:43 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

Lets slap you with some real numbers.


Assumption. 50% are empty.


Terrible

Really? Perfectly scientific actually. I've made an assumption based on logic however since it's an assumption I've made it clear that it is. There are certainly plenty of empty slots in high sec at any moment.

A quick scan in Heimatar where I currently am shows over 50% slots are empty.

But, lets say you are right that it's a terrible assumption and lets assume every single slot in High Sec is being used to maximum capacity....
This only doubles the number of stations required.

So instead of 10 outposts out of the 90 the Goons already own. They would need 20 outposts.
This is still below 25% of the outposts that they already have built that they would need. Exactly what ratio of outposts they have currently, I don't know. But given there are only four races of outposts less than 25% of the already owned outposts needing to be Amarr certainly doesn't sound excessive.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#695 - 2014-01-14 12:15:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


As I have told you seven times now, null sec products are more expensive than importing high sec products. It doesnt matter how many slots you give us so long as high sec has near no costs they will beat us on price and thus, industry in null is not an option.

As you have lied seven times you mean?
Because quite frankly, Null sec products are not more expensive when done right.
Because you have LESS costs than high sec for industry. Not more.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#696 - 2014-01-14 12:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
baltec1 wrote:
There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us.

baltec1 wrote:
We dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends.

Nothing clicks yet? Roll

And this attitude of yours is why you're in the situation you're in. CCP doesn't need to intervene. The solution is staring you right in the face and you refuse to acknowledge it.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#697 - 2014-01-14 12:19:39 UTC
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
There is no place for these people out in null right now so they are useless to us.

baltec1 wrote:
We dont have the numbers to mine enough low ends.

Nothing clicks yet? Roll

And this attitude of yours is why you're in the situation you're in. CCP doesn't need to intervene in this problem of yours. The solution is staring you right in the face and you refuse to acknowledge it.


Shhhh.... Don't tell them, I am having a cheap laugh at their expence....
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#698 - 2014-01-14 12:20:35 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

A quick scan in Heimatar where I currently am shows over 50% slots are empty.

But, lets say you are right that it's a terrible assumption and lets assume every single slot in High Sec is being used to maximum capacity....


*Sigh* no its terrible because you say you are going to use figures then through a wild assumtion into the equation

If I was asked to make any call Id say it was closer to 80% free capacity.


Again Ill say, if you think that industry in Null is limited primarily by line availability, you know nothing about Null Sec operations

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#699 - 2014-01-14 12:25:02 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:


*Sigh* no its terrible because you say you are going to use figures then through a wild assumtion into the equation

If I was asked to make any call Id say it was closer to 80% free capacity.


Again Ill say, if you think that industry in Null is limited primarily by line availability, you know nothing about Null Sec operations

Without hard figures on free capacity I have to make an assumption there however. And I chose to go on the high useage side. Rather than assume a high free capacity and then have nullbears complain that I was underestimating how much was going on. If you are right and it's 80% free, that means even fewer Amarr stations are needed (All of 4 needed for the entire of the goons to be accurate). Which makes it even easier for Null.

Certainly it's not the only bottleneck, minerals is the other bottleneck, but they can solve that bottleneck without any changes to the game since they already have significant advantages in that field. They just have to stop treating miners & industrialists like dirt. And overcome the years they have built up treating them like such.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#700 - 2014-01-14 12:32:40 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Ramona McCandless wrote:


*Sigh* no its terrible because you say you are going to use figures then through a wild assumtion into the equation

If I was asked to make any call Id say it was closer to 80% free capacity.


Again Ill say, if you think that industry in Null is limited primarily by line availability, you know nothing about Null Sec operations

Without hard figures on free capacity I have to make an assumption there however. And I chose to go on the high useage side. Rather than assume a high free capacity and then have nullbears complain that I was underestimating how much was going on. If you are right and it's 80% free, that means even fewer Amarr stations are needed (All of 4 needed for the entire of the goons to be accurate). Which makes it even easier for Null.

Certainly it's not the only bottleneck, minerals is the other bottleneck, but they can solve that bottleneck without any changes to the game since they already have significant advantages in that field. They just have to stop treating miners & industrialists like dirt. And overcome the years they have built up treating them like such.


Confirmed; you can build an Archon with a production line and some minerals

Seriously, you have no idea what you are talking about.

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann