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Very serious danger for all people who like to do missions in faction ships

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stoicfaux
#41 - 2014-01-14 01:11:01 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Or farm them in ships that aren't multi-billion isk loot piñatas?

Couple of hundred million will see you a dominix which laughs at any and all level 4 content. If you're THAT paranoid, insure it and after like...three missions you're in pure profit, even if it pops.

Not quite. The pilot also lost his MTU. My guess is that the gankers attacked the MTU, the Domni's drones auto-aggressed the gankers, at which point it was a consensual PvP, so no CONCORD.

But the other fits were waaaaaaaaaay over-pimped. Given the level of bling, these guys aren't simply ganking for grins and giggles; they're businessmen running a farm.


Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2014-01-14 03:25:58 UTC
Gonna throw my 2 ISK worth of opinion into this convo as well.

First of all, nothing wrong with fitting Faction / Deadspace modules at all, as long as it's a good sound fit up. It makes the ships perform better which in turn makes the NPC encounters quicker to run. What else are you gonna spend your ISK on anyway? I'm definitely not gonna gimp my ship fits because of some griefers looking to pad their KB stats.

I will admit that the days of just casually running missions or doing friendly mining ops are gone now. Suicide Gankers, mission invaders, scammers, griefers, etc are the basic game play options for high sec now. Unfortunately as others have stated, players who wanna run missions in high sec now have to act the same way they do when in low sec.

Anyway, players can still use bling fits, just gotta make sure to dot your I's and cross your T's, mind your P's and Q's and above all else, act like a skittish rabbit ready to warp out at a drop of a dime.

Ugh

It's getting really tough nowadays to find positive things to say about this game. It's a shame really. Within the past couple of years I've watched this game quickly turn into Griefer Online. The creds for that definitely goes to Soundwave & Co.


DMC

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Qalix
Long Jump.
#43 - 2014-01-14 04:44:22 UTC
The particular SOE missioning aspect of the OP is what sets this apart. With only a few systems to focus on, it's a target rich environment. These guys are shooting fish in a barrel and I really can't blame them. You can run bling fits in quiet corners, but not in LP farming central.

I use a classic t2 cruise raven fit just fine in L4s and even epic arc missions, which are a lot tougher than most L4s. I originally splurged on a deadspace XL shield booster that's worth 80mil, but now an XL ASB works just as well (bursts of shield repair are surprisingly unnecessary with good range management). If you've got the isk and are looking to cut run times and have that sort of mission profit focus, you're better off starting a power of two account and running two t2 fits and cutting your run times in half plus get the benefits of leadership bonuses.
Tear Jar
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#44 - 2014-01-14 06:31:06 UTC
Koral Eden wrote:
I'm relatively new to Eve, but have recently started soloing Level 4s. If you are using your max D-scan every 1-2 minutes you should be fine right? I keep an eye out for combat probes. Isn't that the only way for them to find and warp to you while in missions? I hope so because that is the assumption I have been operating under. I figured I could just warp to a station if they popup on D-scan.


Every 1-2 minutes isn't enough to be certain. Ever 20 seconds would be ideal.

The key is that if you see combat probes or scanner probes around you, warp then. That means someone is likely scanning you down to kill you..
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#45 - 2014-01-14 07:31:45 UTC
Tear Jar wrote:
Koral Eden wrote:
I'm relatively new to Eve, but have recently started soloing Level 4s. If you are using your max D-scan every 1-2 minutes you should be fine right? I keep an eye out for combat probes. Isn't that the only way for them to find and warp to you while in missions? I hope so because that is the assumption I have been operating under. I figured I could just warp to a station if they popup on D-scan.


Every 1-2 minutes isn't enough to be certain. Ever 20 seconds would be ideal.

The key is that if you see combat probes or scanner probes around you, warp then. That means someone is likely scanning you down to kill you..


Every 5 seconds wlill show you the probes from a virtue implant scanner who knows how to get a 1hit scan in a system that lets them get out of your d-scan range to drop the probes. By the time you see the probes you may also not have got out of your mission before they have the location (which then presents dangers if you return later) and there is the old problem of false negatives (ie they could be hitting someone else, or they could leave a set out there just to make people get impatient and run anyway).

IMO this an inherent risk of PVE in a system full of neutrals, such as highsec is.
Metamonic
Bubbles Bubbles Bubbles
#46 - 2014-01-14 07:55:17 UTC
Why is everyone talking about how to mitigate the problem, rather than what the OP was first suggesting, that there might be a balance issue with the effort of killing an expensive ships compared to the effort of getting an expensive ship? Everybody always immediately run to their extreme default positions. Carebears cries that it is impossible to operate normally in Empire (no it is not), and proponents of free and open pvp cries that the other side wants to remove pvp from Empire (which no one wants).

I never hear anyone touch on what should be discussed. For example, what happened if we somewhat limit the effort of destroyer ships in particular (make them more expensive, or halve their dps, or make them one type of damage only). Wrong or right, it at least discusses the topic at hand, rather than filling pages after pages with how the topic is wrong.

Also, I am against the term griefing on this context, now that it is actually (vastly) profitable to kill a faction/officer fitted L4 mission boat with cheap little destroyers. Why on earth would you not? Perfectly normal when you gain so much.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#47 - 2014-01-14 09:26:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Metamonic wrote:
Why is everyone talking about how to mitigate the problem, rather than what the OP was first suggesting, that there might be a balance issue with the effort of killing an expensive ships compared to the effort of getting an expensive ship? Everybody always immediately run to their extreme default positions. Carebears cries that it is impossible to operate normally in Empire (no it is not), and proponents of free and open pvp cries that the other side wants to remove pvp from Empire (which no one wants).

I never hear anyone touch on what should be discussed. For example, what happened if we somewhat limit the effort of destroyer ships in particular (make them more expensive, or halve their dps, or make them one type of damage only). Wrong or right, it at least discusses the topic at hand, rather than filling pages after pages with how the topic is wrong.

Also, I am against the term griefing on this context, now that it is actually (vastly) profitable to kill a faction/officer fitted L4 mission boat with cheap little destroyers. Why on earth would you not? Perfectly normal when you gain so much.


Because the game is 10 years old, and without destruction within some distant tolerance of proportion to creation it would mudflate to death. Also because a game balanced such that destroyers are entirely useless, and battleships are indestructible is terrible (destroyer roaming lowsec is one of the first tastes of pvp for many people).


also this thread is filled with people who have remarkable short memories, because I once sold 500 brutixes to people that ganked with them, and they paid me with the insurance money from the last brutix they just lost. ie the cost/danger ratio has never really changed much.
Tronjay II
Tronjay II Corporation
#48 - 2014-01-14 09:32:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tronjay II
Although i mission very rarely these days, I wanted to give my newly acquired Rattle for a spin.
EVE-mission guide was offline so I checked forums and saw your post while undocking.
Man was i lucky.........docked up again...........searched killboards and added all those lowlifes.

They were in next door system active. i checked them out with an alt and you were 100% on the spot.
All these guys seem Russians btw. (prolly rus kiddiesTwisted).

Nevertheless, +1 and a like for you.

In regard to this discussion, be creative.
Start doing missions in a team with RR, bring lots of small drones and fit for PVP fights.......meaning adapt.

I will setup a closed admined INTEL channel for missionrunners only, will be up in a few hours called INTEL PVE (Player vs Extraordinaries).

Again my gratitude for the warning.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#49 - 2014-01-14 09:42:44 UTC
Tronjay II wrote:
Although i mission very rarely these days, I wanted to give my newly acquired Rattle for a spin.
EVE-mission guide was offline so I checked forums and saw your post while undocking.
Man was i lucky.........docked up again...........searched killboards and added all those lowlifes.

They were in next door system active. i checked them out with an alt and you were 100% on the spot.
All these guys seem Russians btw. (prolly rus kiddiesTwisted).

Nevertheless, +1 and a like for you.

In regard to this discussion, be creative.
Start doing missions in a team with RR, bring lots of small drones and fit for PVP fights.......meaning adapt.

I will setup a closed admined INTEL channel for missionrunners only, will be up in a few hours called INTEL PVE (Player vs Extraordinaries).

Again my gratitude for the warning.

the channel thing is a great idea. since 90 of the people in that channel will be spies itll be an easy way to find all the gankers in one spot.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#50 - 2014-01-14 09:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
The paranoia in this thread is, honestly, unbelievable. D-scan every 20, or even 5 seconds in high sec? Hahahahahahahahaha.

Here's the thing, if they want you dead, they'll get you on a gate - a fixed point from which there's no escape.

Less worry, more enjoyment and don't fly what it'll hurt you to lose. Seems to be a lot of people with more isk than sense these days.


@stoicfaux: yes, there are exceptions but the rule is solid - they're not doing it for lulz, they're in it for the loot.
Panseluta
PerRiko Industries
#51 - 2014-01-14 10:08:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Panseluta
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The paranoia in this thread is, honestly, unbelievable. D-scan every 20, or even 5 seconds in high sec? Hahahahahahahahaha.


About what paranoia you talk my friend? You looked on killboard for few seconds before write anything? Dozens and dozens of missioning batlleships killed in just few days are the product of our minds or what??!?!? Shocked

Edit: here is the link again if you miss it first time:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=JIis#13896908966371&if_height=170
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#52 - 2014-01-14 10:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The paranoia in this thread is, honestly, unbelievable. D-scan every 20, or even 5 seconds in high sec? Hahahahahahahahaha.

Here's the thing, if they want you dead, they'll get you on a gate - a fixed point from which there's no escape.

Less worry, more enjoyment and don't fly what it'll hurt you to lose. Seems to be a lot of people with more isk than sense these days.


@stoicfaux: yes, there are exceptions but the rule is solid - they're not doing it for lulz, they're in it for the loot.


There is absolutely no reason for not being travel or ehp fit on a gate anymore. if you don't want to have people land in your encounter, unfortunately 5 second d-scan is required to detect the probes -reliably-. I would not actually bother to do that myself.
Dirk Massive
D.O.O.M.
#53 - 2014-01-14 10:16:57 UTC
I've put the known gankers I know about on my contact list, and mark them as hostile. So I can tell at a glance if they are even in my system. Key word there is "known", and it's impossible to know of everyone who might have hostile intent.

**Bringing WAR and TERROR to a system near you.... **
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2014-01-14 10:32:05 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Or here's a crazy thought. stop trying to be like apparently everyone else mad farming SOE LP. So far the 2 threads you have started, the ganks are happening in SOE mission hubs. So gankers have figured out that rich missioners are using pimp ships to blitz SOE missions for LP and are capitalizing on that.

Just doing a quick check of other good mission hubs, there is no noticable gank activity going on with them.



The effect although is huge on perception. Ganking was more spread all around. Now is very very focused and makes is far more apparent .

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2014-01-14 10:44:16 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The paranoia in this thread is, honestly, unbelievable. D-scan every 20, or even 5 seconds in high sec? Hahahahahahahahaha.

Here's the thing, if they want you dead, they'll get you on a gate - a fixed point from which there's no escape.

Less worry, more enjoyment and don't fly what it'll hurt you to lose. Seems to be a lot of people with more isk than sense these days.


@stoicfaux: yes, there are exceptions but the rule is solid - they're not doing it for lulz, they're in it for the loot.


There is absolutely no reason for not being travel or ehp fit on a gate anymore. if you don't want to have people land in your encounter, unfortunately 5 second d-scan is required to detect the probes -reliably-. I would not actually bother to do that myself.


Yes - but my point is, if they want you dead - that's where to do it - just bring enough guns and nothing and no amount of care will stop it.

It's hardly the rampant crazy that people are making it out to be, loot piñatas have been getting popped for years and I expect them to be popped for years to come.

Don't fly about the busiest, lowest security 'high sec' systems with what amounts to PLEXs in module slots. Simples.

What's the old, old saying? A fool and his money are soon parted...
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-01-14 11:42:49 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@stoicfaux: yes, there are exceptions but the rule is solid - they're not doing it for lulz, they're in it for the loot.


They are in for the lulz, the loot is just covering expenses.

After CCP introduced security status for tags suicide ganking has exploded, you no longer need to recycle alts or grind security status. A gank including security status costs some 30M pr player, which totals 15 dessies just short of 500M. You can go through the km's and see they are by no means getting rich of suicide ganks.

It's just like ganking miners, no one does that because you get rich. Ganking mission runners, is just taking miner ganking to the next level.

Of cause there are people who gank mission runners for profit, but they are a lot more selective in what they gank, compared to the seo system griefers.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#57 - 2014-01-14 14:09:09 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Metamonic wrote:
Why is everyone talking about how to mitigate the problem, rather than what the OP was first suggesting, that there might be a balance issue with the effort of killing an expensive ships compared to the effort of getting an expensive ship? Everybody always immediately run to their extreme default positions. Carebears cries that it is impossible to operate normally in Empire (no it is not), and proponents of free and open pvp cries that the other side wants to remove pvp from Empire (which no one wants).

I never hear anyone touch on what should be discussed. For example, what happened if we somewhat limit the effort of destroyer ships in particular (make them more expensive, or halve their dps, or make them one type of damage only). Wrong or right, it at least discusses the topic at hand, rather than filling pages after pages with how the topic is wrong.

Also, I am against the term griefing on this context, now that it is actually (vastly) profitable to kill a faction/officer fitted L4 mission boat with cheap little destroyers. Why on earth would you not? Perfectly normal when you gain so much.


Because the game is 10 years old, and without destruction within some distant tolerance of proportion to creation it would mudflate to death. Also because a game balanced such that destroyers are entirely useless, and battleships are indestructible is terrible (destroyer roaming lowsec is one of the first tastes of pvp for many people).


also this thread is filled with people who have remarkable short memories, because I once sold 500 brutixes to people that ganked with them, and they paid me with the insurance money from the last brutix they just lost. ie the cost/danger ratio has never really changed much.


People have short memories in general, which is why they tend to think things are 'new' when they aren't. I remember being told about how bad all the ganking was in Sister's agent systems...in GICODEL in 2008. People were jumping up and down about how much ganking has increase "because gankers found out you could pop one npc BS per null sec system to regain sec status so easy!" lol.

The guys who introduced me to EVE spent a LOT of time teaching me "gank mitigation techniques", the same very easy techniques that i've been using for 6 years now. The problem is that too many high sec mission runners tend to be the types who think they are entitled to easy gameplay and total safety.

They also have the extreme min/max mentality, so it never crosses their minds that flying an even slightly blingy ship in an 0.5 system with a sister's agent is a bad idea when they could be in a 1.0 system using a regular (but still good) mission agent with much less chance of experiencing a gank attempt. I mean look at those kill board links for kills in the Lanngisi area, to say that 99% of them don't have so much as a damage control (that magical mod that gives you sooooooo much more EHP on a battleship hull) is an understatement.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#58 - 2014-01-14 14:22:58 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
The paranoia in this thread is, honestly, unbelievable. D-scan every 20, or even 5 seconds in high sec? Hahahahahahahahaha.

Here's the thing, if they want you dead, they'll get you on a gate - a fixed point from which there's no escape.

Less worry, more enjoyment and don't fly what it'll hurt you to lose. Seems to be a lot of people with more isk than sense these days.


This. I'm pretty sure I keep local closed when I'm running missions or epic arcs in hisec. If I wanted to dscan and watch local, I'd be off running an 8/10 somewhere. If I do get a desire to blitz missions in SOE-land, I'll be sure to cut down to like 300m worth of deadspace or less.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Vinyl 41
AdVictis
#59 - 2014-01-14 14:56:16 UTC
this looks to me as a wide scale operation to up the prices on the current top pve ships since they recently become cheaper so killing a few hundred will increase the demand on those and the same the prices will go up, the loot is just the cherry for those gankers - so even if you go t2 fitted they will still aim for you just check the killboards
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#60 - 2014-01-14 15:13:00 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Gonna throw my 2 ISK worth of opinion into this convo as well.

First of all, nothing wrong with fitting Faction / Deadspace modules at all, as long as it's a good sound fit up. It makes the ships perform better which in turn makes the NPC encounters quicker to run. What else are you gonna spend your ISK on anyway? I'm definitely not gonna gimp my ship fits because of some griefers looking to pad their KB stats.

I will admit that the days of just casually running missions or doing friendly mining ops are gone now. Suicide Gankers, mission invaders, scammers, griefers, etc are the basic game play options for high sec now. Unfortunately as others have stated, players who wanna run missions in high sec now have to act the same way they do when in low sec.

Anyway, players can still use bling fits, just gotta make sure to dot your I's and cross your T's, mind your P's and Q's and above all else, act like a skittish rabbit ready to warp out at a drop of a dime.

Ugh

It's getting really tough nowadays to find positive things to say about this game. It's a shame really. Within the past couple of years I've watched this game quickly turn into Griefer Online. The creds for that definitely goes to Soundwave & Co.


DMC

I dunno in all the years I've played I feel it has only gotten harder to gank. off the top of my head, they decreased concord response time, gave concord more power, removed insurance payouts (probably the biggest change, Hell at one point I discoed to -10 in jita making money on insurance), looting gives suspect timer, increased sec losses, buffed mining barge EHP. Maybe some of the ship rebalancing helped gankers (probably t3 bcs, and the destroyers)

and the profits from ganking can't be anywhere near what it once was. in general most faction/deadspace loot just seems super cheap right now. Plus ganking is a far more commonly known thing than it once was, get less whales. and with no insurance payout you have to either risk losing more in ship costs, or bring more people diluting the payout. Although I guess you do get the occasional cargo full of plex.

my rule used to be no more than 300m in loot on my ship, but that was back when you could fully insure ships, and a coordinated gank might consist of 5 alpha ships. now if they are bringing ~15 destroyers I'm tempted to raise my limit, as that seems like a large number of people and a small payout assuming half drops. with the marauder changes I don't think you would even want to go past 300m in fittings. ah well the old rule was generally 100m for every 10k ehp. seems like that might not be far off.



dexington wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
@stoicfaux: yes, there are exceptions but the rule is solid - they're not doing it for lulz, they're in it for the loot.


They are in for the lulz, the loot is just covering expenses.

After CCP introduced security status for tags suicide ganking has exploded, you no longer need to recycle alts or grind security status. A gank including security status costs some 30M pr player, which totals 15 dessies just short of 500M. You can go through the km's and see they are by no means getting rich of suicide ganks.

It's just like ganking miners, no one does that because you get rich. Ganking mission runners, is just taking miner ganking to the next level.

Of cause there are people who gank mission runners for profit, but they are a lot more selective in what they gank, compared to the seo system griefers.


every time I've ganked a mission runner it has been for the loot (admittedly it has been a while). I looked at a few of the kills and they were loaded up with faction/deadspace loot. I'm bored so I did a table as seen below.

the security hit for ganking a mission runner is quite small. It is going to take a LOT of ganks for tags for sec to be a bother.

And yes ganking miners was completely for teh lulz, although it only took a destroyer/cruiser or two back in the day. I'm not sure hulkageddon ever recovered from the mining barge buff.

looking at the kills linked by the op and using the BC prices.

5b paladin
1.2bil cerb
3b paladin
1.4b Tengu
2.4b Kronos
3.1b CNR
2.4b CNR
2.6b Golem
4.3b mach
1.5b rattlesnake
2.8b Paladin
1.6b Tengu
2.3b Kronos
5.7b Golem
cheap domi that probably got MTU aggro
3.3b Golem
1.6b Tengu

these all look like profit kills. and I think I might have to take back my comment about whales.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter