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What would happen if CCP finally nerfed hisec?

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Prince Kobol
#661 - 2014-01-14 07:42:05 UTC
I am not going to claim that this isn't for profit because it is, was for me anyway.

I spent my first few years in Eve as an Industrialist and I chose to remain in HS because when I did my calculations, isk v time + effort + risk , HS was always the winner by a long margin.

There simply wasn't and there still isn't enough incentive to manufacture in null and the main incentive is isk.

I will not pretend that isk was not my main motivation.

At the moment I run lvl5 missions in low sec on a alt as for me it is worth the risk, the carrot is tasty enough so to speak.

The incentive for a miner to up sticks and move all of his stuff to mine and produce goods in null is not there.

Now it isn't just stations that is the problem, it is a combination of many different factors but the fact is, most people will always chose to HS over anywhere.

This is something that needs addressing by CCP.

As the risk, time, effort increases, so should the ability to earn more isk.

If this was true then more people would be out in null now mining and producing goods to sell.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#662 - 2014-01-14 07:54:20 UTC
Anslo wrote:
Who cares? It's a ******* game. Get over it, nerds.


Isn't it time for football practise?... Big smile

I thought nerd calling was limited to, what is that 'merican phrase..., jocks?
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#663 - 2014-01-14 07:59:00 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

The incentive for a miner to up sticks and move all of his stuff to mine and produce goods in null is not there.

Now it isn't just stations that is the problem, it is a combination of many different factors but the fact is, most people will always chose to HS over anywhere.

This is something that needs addressing by CCP.

As the risk, time, effort increases, so should the ability to earn more isk.

If this was true then more people would be out in null now mining and producing goods to sell.


The players themselves could do a lot. Goons could setup a few stations where you could refine, manufacture, and sell goods.
They would not even have to do it themselves, just get income from the tax at the stations.Make a deal with a neutral industry corp. Gonns supply the facilities, the industry corp supply the ships and manpower.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#664 - 2014-01-14 08:31:56 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

The incentive for a miner to up sticks and move all of his stuff to mine and produce goods in null is not there.

Now it isn't just stations that is the problem, it is a combination of many different factors but the fact is, most people will always chose to HS over anywhere.

This is something that needs addressing by CCP.

As the risk, time, effort increases, so should the ability to earn more isk.

If this was true then more people would be out in null now mining and producing goods to sell.


The players themselves could do a lot. Goons could setup a few stations where you could refine, manufacture, and sell goods.
They would not even have to do it themselves, just get income from the tax at the stations.Make a deal with a neutral industry corp. Gonns supply the facilities, the industry corp supply the ships and manpower.




There's a fool born every minute, but even in eve I don't think many would view an offer from GS to "Come out, you stay neutral and mine, I promise we won't shoot you, wink wink" to be even a remote possibility.
Josef Djugashvilis
#665 - 2014-01-14 08:32:17 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I think you're confusing "it's possible to do it" with "it makes sense to do it".
It might be possible, sure, if we fill every single system with a factory outpost. But don't ******* tell me that requiring us to do so in order to get a decent industrial base is good game balance.


I think you are confusing "it's possible to do it" with 'we are too damn lazy to do it and want CCP to give us more cake'

This is not a signature.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#666 - 2014-01-14 08:35:48 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Kira Enomoto wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

The incentive for a miner to up sticks and move all of his stuff to mine and produce goods in null is not there.

Now it isn't just stations that is the problem, it is a combination of many different factors but the fact is, most people will always chose to HS over anywhere.

This is something that needs addressing by CCP.

As the risk, time, effort increases, so should the ability to earn more isk.

If this was true then more people would be out in null now mining and producing goods to sell.


The players themselves could do a lot. Goons could setup a few stations where you could refine, manufacture, and sell goods.
They would not even have to do it themselves, just get income from the tax at the stations.Make a deal with a neutral industry corp. Gonns supply the facilities, the industry corp supply the ships and manpower.




There's a fool born every minute, but even in eve I don't think many would view an offer from GS to "Come out, you stay neutral and mine, I promise we won't shoot you, wink wink" to be even a remote possibility.


Well, perhaps Goons was the wrong example... The point still stands though.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#667 - 2014-01-14 09:02:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Kira Enomoto wrote:


Well, perhaps Goons was the wrong example... The point still stands though.


TLDR: A large nullsec alliance/coalition gets far more income off of renting a few mediocre system, at less effort, than they would get from inviting a massive number of industrialists, babysitting them to try and keep them safe, and having a small tax on refining/sales/whatever.

Part of it is that any activity that the alliance might value is done far more easily in or near empire. Importing all your t2 needs in a single JF is simple beyond belief. There's not a single reason to do significant t2 prod in nullsec.

About the only thing industrialists do of any value is A: Mine Ice so hauling in fuel for towers is less of a hassle, and B: Produce doctrine t1 PvP BS and BC Hulls. Cruisers and below are easily moved en masse. And even the isotopes are of debatable worth, since most characters can make enough casually ratting to pay for an entire JF worth of isos, + JF delivery fee in much less time than mining the isotopes.

And with the wonders of mineral compression, a person with a decent setup can haul a dozen freighters worth of mins from high to null in a single JF. I see that local miners Aka roaming gang bait are a wonderful asset again.

A station with say a 1% transaction tax would require 100 bil worth of transactions in order to get the same amount as the owner renting off an awful system for a month. And renting off the station system itself would probably net them significantly more than that.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#668 - 2014-01-14 09:04:01 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:


Well, perhaps Goons was the wrong example... The point still stands though.

The problem is, all the big null entities pretty much are known to have scammed/awoxed industrialists in the past after promising them opportunities. They treated industrialists like a second class citizen except for the privileged few cap/super cap manufacturers who have been with them for a long time. And now most older industrialists know better than to trust them. Obviously if you are a Goon main and have an industrial alt you aren't as likely to get ganked by goons if you move, but the industrialist mains aren't likely to believe any of them now.

They effectively shot themselves in the foot by doing all of that when Null Industry was in a terrible state & setting up the most efficient import lines they could, that now it is starting to get into better shape, the incentive isn't there to change how they are doing business. Straight Inertia will keep most large entities doing things the same way, even if something 5% better comes along, because the effort involved in changing methods isn't worth 5%.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#669 - 2014-01-14 09:37:03 UTC
Kira Enomoto wrote:


The players themselves could do a lot. Goons could setup a few stations where you could refine, manufacture, and sell goods.
They would not even have to do it themselves, just get income from the tax at the stations.Make a deal with a neutral industry corp. Gonns supply the facilities, the industry corp supply the ships and manpower.



It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.

We can add a million production slots to each station and get 100% refining efficiency and high sec would still be the cheaper option simply because they have near no costs.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#670 - 2014-01-14 09:47:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
baltec1 wrote:


It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.

We can add a million production slots to each station and get 100% refining efficiency and high sec would still be the cheaper option simply because they have near no costs.

Again, pure myth.
Importing product includes two sets of JF fuel costs.
Producing locally at an outpost has no more cost than high sec. Unless your alliance is choosing to tax industrialists in which case.... guess what, you are CHOOSING to drive them away.

So producing locally should be cheaper than importing. If it's not you are doing something wrong. Especially on the bulky items such as ships, where you actually produce them even cheaper than high sec, because your production lines are faster so the time cost is less. (Insignificant as it is atm I know)
Edit: I guess on the smaller T1 ships you might be true. But only because of the crowd who view minerals they mine themselves as 'free'. So sell under the actual mineral cost to build the ships. And those players are making a loss on their sales. So... Yea. Those don't apply in any serious assessment.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#671 - 2014-01-14 09:54:36 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.

We can add a million production slots to each station and get 100% refining efficiency and high sec would still be the cheaper option simply because they have near no costs.

Again, pure myth.
Importing product includes two sets of JF fuel costs.
Producing locally at an outpost has no more cost than high sec. Unless your alliance is choosing to tax industrialists in which case.... guess what, you are CHOOSING to drive them away.

So producing locally should be cheaper than importing. If it's not you are doing something wrong. Especially on the bulky items such as ships, where you actually produce them even cheaper than high sec, because your production lines are faster so the time cost is less. (Insignificant as it is atm I know)


We need to make more JF trips for production in null space. We can only have one outpost per system so we have to move the materials around more as well as still importing low end minerals. I have told you this five times now.

Our costs are much higher than high sec which means high sec simply undercuts us.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#672 - 2014-01-14 09:59:54 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


We need to make more JF trips for production in null space. We can only have one outpost per system so we have to move the materials around more as well as still importing low end minerals. I have told you this five times now.

Our costs are much higher than high sec which means high sec simply undercuts us.

I know it's a strange thing, but Null Sec has gates too..... You don't 'have' to jump freighter everything, and if you set it up right you would have your industry right next to a refinery. And in Null Sec you can even shoot first so scouts and escorts actually work. While high sec industrialists move around unable to shoot first so are actually vulnerable to ganks.

So, using a JF for any movement is again, a CHOICE.

And importing Low ends is a CHOICE. You have local low ends in belts, you can mine them. The volume of low ends available in Null is vastly more than available in high. You can also over mine high ends and export the excess for profit quite easily now the ore has had it's mineral distributions adjusted, because you aren't out at nearly the ratio you were before.

So, these are simply CHOICES you are making in how you do business. Not costs forced on you.
stationmonkey
Synthetic Arbitration
Job's Done.
#673 - 2014-01-14 10:03:51 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
everything the OP said would happen, but to a lesser extent than he says. Bots would still be rampant in highsec, and there would still be huge numbers of carebear noobs who don't know how to play the game.

If highsec income were cut hugely at the highest points, say 75% less income from incursion vanguards in highsec and 50% less incoming DPS, no more incursions other than vanguards in highsec, no more level 4 missions in highsec, the top anomalies give 50% less income in highsec -- and if resource generation were reduced greatly, say 50% less PI yield in highsec, no plasma planets in highsec, no ores above omber and kernite in highsec and those only available in small quantities in grav sites you have to scan down, and 33% less tritanium and pyerite from veldspar and scordite which would be the only ores available in large quantities in asteroid belts in highsec...


..Where to start. I didn't include the conclusion paragraph. But that's because its less than half right. Sure some people would migrate to Low and Null, sure some people would still play in High, content with the lesser amounts. But for the love of god, the mass migration away from eve would shut CCP's doors. Do you guys honestly think CCP can nerf High Sec?

Think with me for a minute if you will. What is the percentage of players game wide who play in Nullsec? The general consensus is somewhere between 25 and 35 percent. So, at best that means that 65 percent of the players are in High sec. Now, assume if you will half those either go on to greener pastures or just stay content with what they have left. your still left with 1/3 of the game up and quitting. ONE THIRD of the game would just say "**** this"

Who is going to make that "leet pvp ship" you love so much? The guys in Null and Low? Seriously? how stupid can you be? The fact that there is the "illusion" of relative safety in High security space is the only reason you have that little ship to fly around in. Granted there are some entities out there who can keep their people safe enough to make ships and modules in Null. (how many of the null blocks can) Without High all your commerce are belong to NOBODY!. High security space creates your ships.

Cry foul and moan all you like. But if you take away any more of what little they have. If you remove the wool from their eyes. Take away the illusion of safety they have with Concord response times. Take away their rocks, their missions, their incursions. Who is going to buy your Officer loot? (level 3 mission runners?) Who is going to sell you Tritanium and Pyerite? (low sec or nullsec miners?) I think perhaps some of you need to pull the proverbial wool off your own eyes. Your disillusioned to a degree that is laughable. You seem to have lost sight of the fact that EVE is a game whose economy is PLAYER BASED.

That does not mean players only buy... That means players create, sell, trade, steal, beg, scam, and borrow. Without those publord newbies working high sec rocks, missions and incursions you hate so much. You WHOLE ECONOMY would collapse. Its like nobody who has tasted the blood of others can remember sometimes. That ship you just used to kill that high sec miner, may well have been built by the guy you just blew up.

If you really have such a terrible issue with the way high sec is. If you really think they should be less safe. Then join New Order Logistics, or create your own similar entity. HTFU you guys. Your supposed to be the "1337" players of EVE right? Act like you have some idea how the game actually works. How an economy functions. Or.. and this one will likely be the better path. Shut the **** up and follow your FC's commands. Talk when spoken to, like a good little line member. Your opinion only matters in your own mind. (yes I understand this goes for me too) But you got your piece. So I will get mine =-)~

Fly True, Strike Sure, and Keep Up!

Stationmonkey
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#674 - 2014-01-14 10:09:30 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I know it's a strange thing, but Null Sec has gates too..... You don't 'have' to jump freighter everything, and if you set it up right you would have your industry right next to a refinery. And in Null Sec you can even shoot first so scouts and escorts actually work. While high sec industrialists move around unable to shoot first so are actually vulnerable to ganks.

So, using a JF for any movement is again, a CHOICE.

And importing Low ends is a CHOICE. You have local low ends in belts, you can mine them. The volume of low ends available in Null is vastly more than available in high. You can also over mine high ends and export the excess for profit quite easily now the ore has had it's mineral distributions adjusted, because you aren't out at nearly the ratio you were before.

So, these are simply CHOICES you are making in how you do business. Not costs forced on you.


We will never have the manpower to mine enough low ends so no its not a choice.

As for convoys, there is a very good reason why everyone stopped using these when the carrier arrived, they are far too easily destroyed. The last alliance to try doing this lost half of their freighters in just two weeks so no, that is not a real option either.
Kira Enomoto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#675 - 2014-01-14 10:15:24 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:

I know it's a strange thing, but Null Sec has gates too..... You don't 'have' to jump freighter everything, and if you set it up right you would have your industry right next to a refinery. And in Null Sec you can even shoot first so scouts and escorts actually work. While high sec industrialists move around unable to shoot first so are actually vulnerable to ganks.

So, using a JF for any movement is again, a CHOICE.

And importing Low ends is a CHOICE. You have local low ends in belts, you can mine them. The volume of low ends available in Null is vastly more than available in high. You can also over mine high ends and export the excess for profit quite easily now the ore has had it's mineral distributions adjusted, because you aren't out at nearly the ratio you were before.

So, these are simply CHOICES you are making in how you do business. Not costs forced on you.


We will never have the manpower to mine enough low ends so no its not a choice.


Something I made a suggestion as to how to remedy.

But, granted, most of the big corps made the CHOICE to scare all those who mine your minerals and build your ships away.

Perhaps a bit of forethought from those corps and alliances would be a good idea. Some choices are really rather obvious, I think we can all agree that you do not start painting the floor by the door. Except, thats what happend with the war on non PvP'ers
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#676 - 2014-01-14 10:21:18 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


We will never have the manpower to mine enough low ends so no its not a choice.

As for convoys, there is a very good reason why everyone stopped using these when the carrier arrived, they are far too easily destroyed. The last alliance to try doing this lost half of their freighters in just two weeks so no, that is not a real option either.

What, jumping next door gets half your freighters destroyed? If that is happening, I think you have serious spy issues. Or are you saying the goons had their spies in fleet and you were the ones destroying them via actually being half their alliance. I'd believe the later. Convoys all the way from high are totally different to 'convoys' from one system to the neighbour. Heck. If you are only moving a couple of jumps BR's can move massive amounts per hour in almost total safety (Unless you have a million bubbles on the gate, which again, is a CHOICE).

And the manpower could be there if you hadn't built up a reputation for luring miners in then awoxing them for lolz. Plenty of people would love to mine in Null with perma Rorq boosts. And if you procurer fleet mine, you can deal with interceptors roaming easily. Fit a mix of points & webs, and 40 warriors + 10 ECM drones will eat interceptors alive as they are triple webbed & pointed. It's all easily possible, you simply don't want to do it.
Prince Kobol
#677 - 2014-01-14 11:22:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We will never have the manpower to mine enough low ends so no its not a choice.

As for convoys, there is a very good reason why everyone stopped using these when the carrier arrived, they are far too easily destroyed. The last alliance to try doing this lost half of their freighters in just two weeks so no, that is not a real option either.


Nevyn Auscent wrote:
What, jumping next door gets half your freighters destroyed? If that is happening, I think you have serious spy issues. Or are you saying the goons had their spies in fleet and you were the ones destroying them via actually being half their alliance. I'd believe the later. Convoys all the way from high are totally different to 'convoys' from one system to the neighbour. Heck. If you are only moving a couple of jumps BR's can move massive amounts per hour in almost total safety (Unless you have a million bubbles on the gate, which again, is a CHOICE).


There is no way you have ever lived in null otherwise you would of never suggested this.

You have any idea how easy it is to kill a JF?

Jesus having an alliance move that much volume in JF's via gates would be a dream come true for cyno pilot / blops fleet.

It has nothing to do with spies but the fact that most areas of null will have pilots from other corps/alliances roaming cloaked looking for potential targets.

Considering a JF costs on average 6bil and then what ever it is carrying, it would be worth whelping a few dreads killing them.

Nevyn Auscent wrote:
And the manpower could be there if you hadn't built up a reputation for luring miners in then awoxing them for lolz. Plenty of people would love to mine in Null with perma Rorq boosts. And if you procurer fleet mine, you can deal with interceptors roaming easily. Fit a mix of points & webs, and 40 warriors + 10 ECM drones will eat interceptors alive as they are triple webbed & pointed. It's all easily possible, you simply don't want to do it.


You really have a thing with the goons don't you lol You do realise that there are other people who live in null other then the goons.

As for luring away miners from HS, again stop with the goons crap as it effects all null sec alliances.

I have said before that I have personally tried it but those people who did come out learned very quickly that it wasn't worth their time and effort.

We did everything we could to make life as easy as possible for them but it still didn't work. You try and pursade any miner to come out to null and mine veld in a belt and see how hard he laughs at you.

You can have all the rorq boosts you want, webs, ECM drones what ever, a few well placed bombs or a inty fleet and you can kiss good bye to your mining fleet.

Just to point something out as it is pretty easy to spot you have never pvp'ed, you do realise that crows orbit and apply damage at 40km and beyond doing approx 3.5k - 4k m/s

Your drones are going to do next to no damage, you can't web / scam **** as they are out of range and you sitting in a bubble waiting to die

Also if it isn't a bomber or inty fleet that gets you it will be a covert cyno and blops fleet that makes mince meat out of you.

The risk is inherently greater yet the rewards are not, hence why not many people bother.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#678 - 2014-01-14 11:35:12 UTC
ECM drones, Skirmish links, heck, ECM itself would have impact.
Sure, a full Inty fleet might actually get you. Though they sure aren't getting a procurer fleet in under a minute unless there are a heck of a lot of them and I hope your intel channels would warn you about 200 Inties heading your way.

Also, Jump Freighters, why the hell would you use jump freighters if you aren't jumping. My whole point was that there are other ships like, oh, normal freighters, or more likely since it's a short distance you should be moving things, cargo rigged blockade runners. Since your intel channels should be capable of telling you if anyone is sitting on those few gates between your locations.

As for goons? To my knowledge, all the large null entities have a rep for screwing over industrialists, it's not just goons, they just have the worst rep.

Covert Cyno? So..... You weren't watching local then were you? Since it has to warp to you, find you on the first warp magically (If it takes time to deep scan it has to find you on the first scan), drop it's cyno then you still be on grid waiting to die. Bombs? Feel free to give me the actual maths on how many bombs it takes to insti pop a procurer that's fitted decently.

The Rewards are greater for Null miners. About double for the same time what high sec miners can turn between the higher end options and the better boosts.
Risks, sure, they are greater too. All you are saying is you aren't prepared to take any at all. In effect, you are just as carebear as any high sec player you care to abuse.

P.S. Been there, done PvP, am I a PvP god, nope. Do I know the sensible basics enough to know when you are just trying to spin a sob story about how evil null sec is and how you can't undock with dying. Yep.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#679 - 2014-01-14 11:37:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
It would still be cheaper to import the finished product.


I'd imagine it would be even cheaper to import human capital. Import miners and industrialists to nullsec. Show them the wonders of the untamed wilds of New Eden. Care for them as you would any investment. Pay them an honest wage. And stop shooting at them.

The reason this would be difficult is that you and others in Null have spent the past 5 years or more being shitboxes to these people.

You're asking for CCP to step in and modify game mechanics because you simply can't be bothered to be ******* nice to people.

Emergent gameplay does not always have to involve asshattery. It can also involve actually building an Empire and not something that resembles Somalia.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#680 - 2014-01-14 11:48:46 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
baltec1 wrote:


We will never have the manpower to mine enough low ends so no its not a choice.

As for convoys, there is a very good reason why everyone stopped using these when the carrier arrived, they are far too easily destroyed. The last alliance to try doing this lost half of their freighters in just two weeks so no, that is not a real option either.

What, jumping next door gets half your freighters destroyed? If that is happening, I think you have serious spy issues. Or are you saying the goons had their spies in fleet and you were the ones destroying them via actually being half their alliance. I'd believe the later. Convoys all the way from high are totally different to 'convoys' from one system to the neighbour. Heck. If you are only moving a couple of jumps BR's can move massive amounts per hour in almost total safety (Unless you have a million bubbles on the gate, which again, is a CHOICE).

And the manpower could be there if you hadn't built up a reputation for luring miners in then awoxing them for lolz. Plenty of people would love to mine in Null with perma Rorq boosts. And if you procurer fleet mine, you can deal with interceptors roaming easily. Fit a mix of points & webs, and 40 warriors + 10 ECM drones will eat interceptors alive as they are triple webbed & pointed. It's all easily possible, you simply don't want to do it.


Only its not jumping next door is it?

We would need tens of thousands to produce enough low ends which, ignoring the fact that it will be impossible to get that many miners into null, would mean a large population spread out across our space so no, they will not by simply "jumping next door".

The simple fact is that until highsec has to pay costs to the same level as we do they will undercut null, low and WH space industry. It is very clear now that you have never been in null let alone tried to set up production there.