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Remove the Covert Ops Cloak from Stealth Bombers
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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-01-12 23:28:11 UTC
OMG face palm... idk why some people bother

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
buyer Bedala
Doomheim
#22 - 2014-01-12 23:51:17 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Come on, even I do think that bombers are fine..

Make them exposed to enemy fire before they can launch their bombs would defeat their purpose eintirely.


That is not inherent to this change; the only difference would be that a bomber couldn't warp without being at least briefly decloaked. On grid maneuvers could still be performed while wholly invisible, including positioning for the bombing run.


Regular cloaks have a 10 second timer between decloaking and locking a target.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-01-13 00:26:53 UTC
buyer Bedala wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Come on, even I do think that bombers are fine..

Make them exposed to enemy fire before they can launch their bombs would defeat their purpose eintirely.


That is not inherent to this change; the only difference would be that a bomber couldn't warp without being at least briefly decloaked. On grid maneuvers could still be performed while wholly invisible, including positioning for the bombing run.


Regular cloaks have a 10 second timer between decloaking and locking a target.


Indeed, hence the suggestion of a decloak timer delay bonus. The only target for the change is warping while cloaked; the stealth bomber should be bonused in the use of regular cloaking devices accordingly.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2014-01-13 00:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
No, Luddites are wrong and should just be ignored. This is a Luddite topic.

Surprise and stealth are the SB's only survival tool, and you're trying to take surprise away. Oh any ship can be stealthed, but the SB is in the Cov-ops section of the game, so it does indeed merit and require the cov-ops cloak.
It would be disgusting to see it otherwise, Everyone would know where they are by where they warped to.

It would be like walking into a bank with a gun in your hand, waiting till you had been seen by all and recorded, then putting on a mask, and hiding the gun and proceeding to rob the bank.

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-01-13 00:55:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
No, Luddites are wrong and should just be ignored. This is a Luddite topic.

Surprise and stealth are the SB's only survival tool, and you're trying to take surprise away. Oh any ship can be stealthed, but the SB is in the Cov-ops section of the game, so it does indeed merit and require the cov-ops cloak.
It would be disgusting to see it otherwise, Everyone would know where they are by where they warped to.

It would be like walking into a bank with a gun in your hand, waiting till you had been seen by all and recorded, then putting on a mask, and hiding the gun and proceeding to rob the bank.


When did covert jump portal generators on black ops battleships cease to exist?

I don't buy the argument that the stealth bomber has no utility if it can't warp while cloaked. It maintains a powerful weapons capability, and still holds the only truly effective AOE weapon available at this time.

It's interesting that you call it a luddite concept when you consider that the game's player count has been in a plateau for the past four years. Forward progress is not inherent to additional game mechanics.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2014-01-13 01:08:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dolorous Tremmens
Evelgrivion wrote:
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
No, Luddites are wrong and should just be ignored. This is a Luddite topic.

Surprise and stealth are the SB's only survival tool, and you're trying to take surprise away. Oh any ship can be stealthed, but the SB is in the Cov-ops section of the game, so it does indeed merit and require the cov-ops cloak.
It would be disgusting to see it otherwise, Everyone would know where they are by where they warped to.

It would be like walking into a bank with a gun in your hand, waiting till you had been seen by all and recorded, then putting on a mask, and hiding the gun and proceeding to rob the bank.


When did covert jump portal generators on black ops battleships cease to exist?

I don't buy the argument that the stealth bomber has no utility if it can't warp while cloaked. It maintains a powerful weapons capability, and still holds the only truly effective AOE weapon available at this time.


there is also the surprise aspect. if you KNOW they're on grid with you and where they were, you can scatter appropriately. They're not just useful for bombing. they're used to scout and take out targets of opportunity, opportunities lost if they can see it coming.

The jump portals are a red herring, and they're used for hotdrops, and not bombing. with bombing,you jump in remotely, not right on target. You warp at distance from target, remain cloaked and begin the approach. That last bit is negated if the see you warp in, and then cloak. I feel I have to explain the obvious since I am repeating myself.
Have you even flown SB's? used a jump portal? been on a bombing run? Are you a forum alt, cause I don't see any of that on your KB.

Seeing none of that, I have to conclude that this is a personal axe to grind, or just a soapbox to troll from.

**edit: It is an axe to grind. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1322882 and http://www.eve-search.com/thread/312087-1/page/1 **

/thread

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2014-01-13 01:16:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
there is also the surprise aspect. if you KNOW they're on grid with you and where they were, you can scatter appropriately. They're not just useful for bombing. they're used to scout and take out targets of opportunity, opportunities lost if they can see it coming.

The jump portals are a red herring, and they're used for hotdrops, and not bombing. with bombing,you jump in remotely, not right on target. You warp at distance from target, remain cloaked and begin the approach. That last bit is negated if the see you warp in, and then cloak. I feel I have to explain the obvious since I am repeating myself.
Have you even flown SB's? used a jump portal? been on a bombing run? Are you a forum alt, cause I don't see any of that on your KB.

Seeing none of that, I have to conclude that this is a personal axe to grind, or just a soapbox to troll from.


You should look a little closer, because I can, have, and do use Black Ops Battleships for hot-drops, have used stealth bombers for bombing runs, and have flown them in their previous iterations.

Bombers are part of a larger perceived problem, and the proposed change in this thread is mean to help alleviate some of that problem. Bombs are not a good game mechanic; they are a force multiplier that are most effective as a part of an already multiplied force.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#28 - 2014-01-13 01:28:44 UTC
A thread about removing stealth abilities from stealth bombers? And maybe also removing bombing abilities from stalth bombers cause is a bad mechanic?!

Adding a 10 seconds cooldown to target after declocaking?

Are you guys serious?
Evelgrivion
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2014-01-13 01:29:56 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
A thread about removing stealth abilities from stealth bombers? And maybe also removing bombing abilities from stalth bombers cause is a bad mechanic?!

Adding a 10 seconds cooldown to target after declocaking?

Are you guys serious?



I can see that you haven't actually read the discussion in this thread.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#30 - 2014-01-13 01:42:54 UTC
Perhaps the problem with bombers is... Oh wait, there is no problem with bombers. Comparing them to the old AOE doomsday is just absurd. CCP finally has an effective anti-blob weapon that still has a good counter (or ten).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#31 - 2014-01-13 04:05:46 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
...an invisible hoard of highly maneuverable, and most of the time, effectively indestructible frigates...

...bombers have become too powerful...


Lay off the drugs, man.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Ordo Malus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-13 08:38:47 UTC
Evelgrivion wrote:
Null security combat is ruled by a handful of ever present threats. You are at constant risk of being hot-dropped, pounced by a larger force at the other end of a stargate, and, prominently, of having your entire fleet annihilated by a bombing run at an inopportune moment.

It is the prospect of being destroyed by an invisible hoard of highly maneuverable, and most of the time, effectively indestructible frigates that leads me to believe that bombers have become too powerful for the game's own good. Operations in nullsec are consistently operating under the imminent prospect of getting bombed, and must seek to mitigate the situation accordingly - a tactical reality that I don't find to be healthy.

I believe that bombers could be made a little less overwhelming by reducing their maneuvering capabilities. It is the ability to position the stealth bomber in system with impunity (especially now that cloaked ships can't decloak each other) that really makes the opportunistic bombing run such a threatening prospect. When the only recourse another fleet has is to narrow their options just to reduce the threat posed by bombers, the depth of the strategic landscape suffers, and other, less savory strategies, such as massing capital ships, come into greater prominence.

To alleviate the tension that bombers have created, the bomber should have to warp without the protection of a cloaking device. A window of exposure forces more consideration in their deployment - offering their victims a better opportunity to react twithout eliminating their flavor of gameplay altogether. However, to compensate, the bombers would need a significant cloaked velocity bonus, comparable to the Black Ops Battleship.

I believe that this change would broaden the strategic tapestry of nullsec, and would ultimately be a net benefit to the game.


Read part of your post, you're a ******* scrub. Bombers are already easy to kill. Stop being ******* terrible.
I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2014-01-13 08:45:08 UTC
The title of this thread cracked me up. Didn't read anything, just thought I'd share my amusement.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-01-13 09:14:16 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Remove the stealth from stealth bombers you mean?

Remove literally the only protection they have? Make them entirely unable to do their job, that is, hit and run attacks on fleets of larger ships?



well for along time stealth bomber coudl nto use covert ops cloaks. THey used the normal t2 cloak, but they had a massive speed boost while in cloak and could target without delay after uncloak.

I for ocne foudne them more FUN back then.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tchulen
Trumpets and Bookmarks
#35 - 2014-01-13 10:54:04 UTC
I wasn't going to post in this thread but I simply can't help it.
Evelgrivion wrote:
Bombs are a terrible game mechanic.

They are not a threat until they are, their actual window of opportunity is seconds long, and the only thing people can do in response to them is disengage or get hammered.

"They are not a threat until they are"... How does this make them any difference than anything else? Nothing is a threat until it is. You're wrong about the rest. Like most things in the game other than those that aren't completely unbalanced (and there aren't many of those left), fleet commanders who know how to adapt are adapting. When you have a fleet of ships and are concerned about bombs the FC merely spreads the fleet out rather than clumping it together. This mitigates a large amount of the threat that a bomber fleet can impose on a larger fleet. Also, FCs take a few instacanes or the like. With each bombing run the bomber fleet loses a few bombers. If the large fleet keeps spaced out the logi can generally rep everyone who took hits back up before the bombers make another run meaning that the bombers lose over time. Bombers aren't invincible. Either you're trolling or you simply don't know how to think tactically.

Evelgrivion wrote:
Game mechanics should encourage people to get in fights and stick with them as long as they believe they can get something done, not leave people with the immediate choice to abandon the fight or die.

By design, stealth bombers only leave the players in the target area the option to bail. Anyone around them with a fast locking time can point them and shoot their ship out from under them, sure, but the stealth bomber remains a relatively small loss. Meanwhile, the damage they can do to opposing fleets have made many doctrines untenable, and driven the current metagame towards skirmish fleets with small signature radius, and brick fleets.

As explained above, you're wrong. People don't have to warp off every time. spacing out and either having a small enough sig radius or a large enough buffer tank does the trick. Adapt or die!

Evelgrivion wrote:
Ever wonder why N3 has moved to capital ship doctrines? When they try other things, they die in a fire; they don't have the numbers to back up any gained experience. Jump drives, huge buffer tanks, flexibility in combat, and effective immunity to bombing runs has driven just about everyone who can't push a numbers advantage in a nullsec fight into capitals; they have no other choice, as sub-capitals don't have the staying power to last against, or out-maneuver, a numerically superior force. Bombs contribute heavily to this problem, which, by design, immediately destroy any opportunity an opposing fleet has to have "fun" - they immediately lose their power to shoot back. Bombs have no utility value except in immediately destroying significant portions of an opposing fleet. It's a strategically valuable capability, but mass destruction without recourse is a dis-empowering design.

After reading this last paragraph I was perplexed to discover, on looking at your killboard, that you actually fly in nullsec and that a lot of your kills and losses are not in capital ships. I would expect you to know how many more subcaps are flown in nullsec compared to cap ships. The cap proliferation is getting quite large but by no means stopping people flying subcaps. You're exaggerating to enhance your point but due to your exaggeration being incorrect you really only damage your argument.

Evelgrivion wrote:
Fundamentally, a bombing run is no fun for the same reason the AOE doomsday is no fun. Between fight or flight, barring a few choices that are the subject of much ire, the only choice is flight - and that's bad.

Again, only if your FC and fleet are bad. Use the right tactics and take a few of the right ships and you can counter bombers effectively.

In conclusion: Bombers are fine as they are. There are sufficient counters to bombers already in game.
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-01-13 11:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Debora Tsung
That OP is almost a new one. Straight

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#37 - 2014-01-13 12:55:47 UTC
My reaction -> http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/173/576/Wat8.jpg

Doing bomb runs is far more hard to execute than a titan hot drop, and they work in low, so if you want to deal with threats constantly around while you're in a fleet, I suggest we take a look at that first. But bombers are FINE.

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