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Author
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#101 - 2014-01-12 16:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Benny Ohu wrote:
i'm not posting to please you


No, you're posting zero content trolls. Pretty obvious ones at that.

If you have nothing relevant to say, maybe you should keep it to yourself.

You're also derailing the conversation -- probably deliberately.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2014-01-12 17:16:06 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
i'm not posting to please you


No, you're posting zero content trolls. Pretty obvious ones at that.

If you have nothing relevant to say, maybe you should keep it to yourself.

You're also derailing the conversation -- probably deliberately.

you're posting baseless accusations. 'mentioning a ship class' is not pursuing an agenda, 'speaking while being in a coalition' is not indication of bias, 'not specifically mentioning every ship' is not evidence of corruption

i'm not interrupting a conversation of any worth
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#103 - 2014-01-12 17:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Benny Ohu wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
i'm not posting to please you


No, you're posting zero content trolls. Pretty obvious ones at that.

If you have nothing relevant to say, maybe you should keep it to yourself.

You're also derailing the conversation -- probably deliberately.

you're posting baseless accusations. 'mentioning a ship class' is not pursuing an agenda, 'speaking while being in a coalition' is not indication of bias, 'not specifically mentioning every ship' is not evidence of corruption

i'm not interrupting a conversation of any worth


It's not baseless. Have you even read the minutes? This was about the third or fourth sentence into the balance discussion of the entire game.

What is and is not brought up is absolutely evidence of priorities. Who in particular brings what up and when is evidence of the relative priorities of the individual.

Would you argue that lobbyists (a CSM is basically an elected lobbyist - a weird notion but there it is) regularly bring up and pursue topics that don't have personal relevance to them? Talk about backwards.

I would love to see an example of a CSM taking a stance on something that would be both:
1) To the direct disadvantage of their own coalition
and
2) To the direct advantage of the game as a whole

Statistically, you would expect to see this with /some/ regularity for unbiased individuals. Maybe it still wouldn't be overly common because perhaps it would present a rare opportunity. Again though - you would expect for it to happen every now and again from most of the individuals.

Given the rarity/nonexistence of this behavior, we can conclude there is substantial bias.

Instead you see more things more like:
1) To the direct advantage of their own coalition
2) To the direct disadvantage of a competing coalition
3) Of neutral benefit to the game as a whole
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#104 - 2014-01-12 17:51:02 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
What is and is not brought up is absolutely evidence of priorities. Who in particular brings what up and when is evidence of the relative priorities of the individual.

then the individual, a respected member of the community voted for in a fair election in which every player had a vote, and in receipt of information not allowed to the rest of the playerbase, believes that this is an issue deserving of a high priority

and the rest of your post is baseless
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2014-01-12 17:56:06 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
What is and is not brought up is absolutely evidence of priorities. Who in particular brings what up and when is evidence of the relative priorities of the individual.

then the individual, a respected member of the community voted for in a fair election in which every player had a vote, and in receipt of information not allowed to the rest of the playerbase, believes that this is an issue deserving of a high priority

and the rest of your post is baseless


it's easy to troll and call something baseless while posting with zero content.

it's much harder to actually post something with actual content. done replying with you until you can formulate a coherent, logical response.

your post is baseless. there, i contributed as much as you.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2014-01-12 18:19:56 UTC
you're failing to back up your premises, instead you're attacking me personally

how could i possibly be at fault
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#107 - 2014-01-12 18:29:36 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
If you like I could get any one of several of the "neutral" CSMs to re-watch that part of that session and then come here and post confirming the fact that while I was the first one who spoke about it, basically everyone in the room affirmed their interest in the answer.

Somehow I don't expect this to change your opinion at all, however.

e: I could engage you in honest debate on the subject but your conduct over the last page or so has shown that to not be of value, so instead I'm going to take a very cynical approach to further attack and ridicule your argument: Even if what you say is true, there are fourteen members on the council with a diverse set of backgrounds, ensuring that no one of them is able to "ram an agenda through" without aide from others.

Another way to put that is this: Other members of the council, if they're still willing to post in this awful thread, would likely back me up when I say that our greatest successes in getting change to happen have come when the majority of the council is in agreement.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#108 - 2014-01-12 18:41:22 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:

What does the CSM think of this issue? Is stagnation good or bad? It's going to move up or down? Is it being dealt by CCP or don't?


A trivial answer: the default state for a 10 year old MMO is "shut down, maybe a few unofficial private servers running somewhere". Compared to that, stagnating at around half a million subscriptions and and average of 33k characters logged in at any one time on TQ (plus an unknown number on Serenity, probably in the 5-7.5k range) looks pretty good.

We could question whether it is necessary for EVE to grow much larger. Instinctively of course we want our chosen hobby to be successful and popular, but do we need it? What do we, the players, get from it exactly? That's a harder question to answer.

With respect to Ripard's excellent article a number of thoughts occurred to me in response. The main one is this: EVE is qualitatively different to other MMOs in that there are a very large number of people who are interested in what happens within the game (as Ripard mentions). In comparison, when was the last time that you say an unironic article about something that happened in SW:TOR or Runequest or WoW. I'm going to go with "never". No one who doesn't play those games gives the tiniest of dambs that someone completed a raid 30 seconds faster than the previous record or whatever.

In comparison, EVE has a large audience of people who are fascinated with what happens in game, and I'm pretty sure that this audience is larger than the number of people who are making those things happen. No one cares about what Empire Mission Runner #46,184 does unless he appears as the victim in an unusually spectacular gank, because he's not doing anything different that can be done in dozens of other MMOs. They care about what the big coalitions do, the space-politics, the wars, the treachery and alliances and the metagame; they care about the truly ingenious scammers and corp thieves, the social engineers and so forth. They care about the unique and dramatic player interactions that are only found in EVE.

The thing is that being one of these happeners, these movers and shakers, takes a lot of talent (for want of a better word), and also the time and the willingness to actually commit to do so. And that's a pretty small subset. It may be that pretty much all the people who are (1) interested in EVE and (2) have that talent/motivation are playing it already. Obviously there's some turnover as players "retire" and fresh young talent joins, but I think it's quite likely that the available players are pretty much fully employed.

In that case, there is an obvious opportunity for CCP to increase the size of the EVE business. And that is to focus not on increasing the number of "happening" players, but on developing and monetising EVE as consumable media - comics, fiction, anime, mini-series, figures, streaming big battles, interviewing perpatrators of spectacular crimes, etc. In short, to start mining that halo of "rather read about it than play it" for money directly, rather than trying to square the circle of getting sub money out of people who don't actually want to play EVE.

Of course, as you will immediately realise that also has some pretty dramatic implications for what direction EVE the game will take.

And that's the conclusion I'm leading up to. In my opinion EVE is stagnating because for the last half decade for so, CCP has been trying to have their cake and eat it. Rather than commiting to a direction for EVE and developing towards it, they've been trying to tell one story to Empire Mission Runner #46,184 and another story to the pirates who want to gank his officer-fitted Golem. They've been trying to develop the narrative of the dark, deadly, dramatic, player driven universe while at the same time they've been unable to resist trying to get some of that "but don't want to play it" money into their wallets by making it more and more possible to play EVE without actually playing it. (ie: by playing WoW in space).

So it's quite possible that CCP would be better off with a smaller, better focused player base that generates lots of exciting, monetisable media content and doesn't care a fig for expensive-to-develop PvE content. Or it may be that the commercial future lies in converting those millions of departing WoW players into WoW-in-space players. But just as it's rather difficult to get parents to bring their kids to a themepark that's advertised as having lots of pedophiles and pickpockets, it's also going to be difficult for CCP to grow EVE by trying to do both.


This ability to understand the EVE situation in unbiased fasion is why Malcanis is a CSM member and Ishtanchuk Fazmarai is too busy having his compalint threads locked by CCP.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#109 - 2014-01-12 18:52:48 UTC
mynnna wrote:
If you like I could get any one of several of the "neutral" CSMs to re-watch that part of that session and then come here and post confirming the fact that while I was the first one who spoke about it, basically everyone in the room affirmed their interest in the answer.

Somehow I don't expect this to change your opinion at all, however.


It wouldn't.

It would take again, concrete examples of CSM's advocating for a change that would be:

1) Detrimental to their own individual power group/alliance/coalition/whatever
2) Positive for the game as a whole

I realize this would be rare - but without extreme bias there would surely be a few examples.

Sadly, I can't find any.

mynnna wrote:
e: I could engage you in honest debate on the subject but your conduct over the last page or so has shown that to not be of value


Wondering where you got this from. Was it because I was responding to a troll who just repeatedly says "baseless" with no other content, while I write paragraphs describing exactly how I draw my conclusions and the logic behind them?

Or perhaps it's just a random personal attack because you have nothing much else to say of value.

mynnna wrote:
so instead I'm going to take a very cynical approach to further attack and ridicule your argument: Even if what you say is true, there are fourteen members on the council with a diverse set of backgrounds, ensuring that no one of them is able to "ram an agenda through" without aide from others.


A silly and unrealistic notion. The smaller the group is (14 is pretty small) the more easy it is to use up time, and push personal agendas. If there are certain centralized agendas - such as the power balance of certain ships, which directly affect the power balance of the big alliances....

Those agendas will be pursued from multiple directions from everybody on the CSM who has a stake in it, which is probably well over half the CSM team.

mynnna wrote:
Another way to put that is this: Other members of the council, if they're still willing to post in this awful thread, would likely back me up when I say that our greatest successes in getting change to happen have come when the majority of the council is in agreement.


That's not really a surprise, and it says nothing of the absolute levels of success. It's basically saying "when everybody agrees, it's more likely to happen."

No, really? Roll

Conversely, just because not everybody agrees, does not mean a change will not happen - thus making your point irrelevant.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2014-01-12 19:01:53 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Wondering where you got this from. Was it because I was responding to a troll who just repeatedly says "baseless" with no other content, while I write paragraphs describing exactly how I draw my conclusions and the logic behind them?

no, you only posted a conclusion and a single premise, which you failed to back up

Pinky Hops wrote:
It would take again, concrete examples of CSM's advocating for a change that would be:

1) Detrimental to their own individual power group/alliance/coalition/whatever
2) Positive for the game as a whole

perhaps you should provide evidence for your own assertions first, as the assumption of 'csm is acting as they're expected' is more likely than the assumption of 'csm is corrupt'

secondly the fact that a csm may advocate mostly or solely for changes that benefit their own alliance is not indication of corruption, as those changes themselves may be beneficial and in the interest of the wider playerbase
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#111 - 2014-01-12 19:03:40 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
The thing is that you just say that to sound edgy and cynical.


No man.

You made the assertion that I was saying it to be "edgy" which puts the burden of proof on you. It also makes you look like a child -- but that's a separate issue.


You've been most helpful in relieving me of that burden.

You tried really hard.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#112 - 2014-01-12 19:04:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Benny Ohu wrote:
secondly the fact that a csm may advocate mostly or solely for changes that benefit their own alliance is not indication of corruption


hahahahahhahahha

that's cute dude.

no, it's just a GIANT coincidence.

Roll

Malcanis wrote:
You've been most helpful in relieving me of that burden.

You tried really hard.


More lovely content from a CSM. I honestly have no idea what you are even talking about anymore as you:

1) Made a personal attack as a response to me pointing out bias.
2) You then stated that I needed to be the one to disprove your personal attack -- totally backwards.
3) Now you're just reposting the same stale crap over and over, with no content.

In summary:

I think you are just posting this stuff to appear edgy, Malcanis.

The burden of proof lies on you to prove me wrong. There, now I'm as logical as you are.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2014-01-12 19:07:22 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
secondly the fact that a csm may advocate mostly or solely for changes that benefit their own alliance is not indication of corruption


hahahahahhahahha

that's cute dude.

no, it's just a GIANT coincidence.

Roll

unless shown otherwise, yes, just a coincidence
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#114 - 2014-01-12 19:11:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Benny Ohu wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
secondly the fact that a csm may advocate mostly or solely for changes that benefit their own alliance is not indication of corruption


hahahahahhahahha

that's cute dude.

no, it's just a GIANT coincidence.

Roll

unless shown otherwise, yes, just a coincidence


Ming bogglingly naive. Statistically impossible for this to be true as long as you stretch out time long enough.

It's like a casino arguing that it's just a coincidence that the house always wins.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2014-01-12 19:26:29 UTC
and yet, no support
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#116 - 2014-01-12 19:33:58 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
and yet, no support


Considering you believe in the fairytale of never-ending coincidence, I don't think any amount of evidence, support, or reasoning would ever sway you.

After all, it could all just be a coincidence. Now there is an argument that always "works" -- depending on your standards, of course.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#117 - 2014-01-12 19:41:53 UTC
until you are able to provide proof to a premise to support the conclusion that 'change x was not to benefit the game but to benefit a csm', then yes, a circumstance where a csm supports a change to the benefit of their alliance and the game is just circumstance

i have provided no argument, i am asking you to supply yours, and you have failed
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2014-01-12 19:43:29 UTC
unless asking someone to support their ridiculous, damaging claims against prominent and respected members of the playerbase is ~trolling~
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#119 - 2014-01-12 19:59:01 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
until you are able to provide proof to a premise to support the conclusion that 'change x was not to benefit the game but to benefit a csm', then yes, a circumstance where a csm supports a change to the benefit of their alliance and the game is just circumstance

i have provided no argument, i am asking you to supply yours, and you have failed


I did supply it. Several times.

I consider it to be evidence of bias that CSM members prioritize supercapitals in a discussion of balance. It effects a small portion of the game and it's relevant to their own home teams.

You consider it to be a coincidence. When I pushed the matter -- you stated that even if the coincidences piled up over and over again, it wouldn't prove anything (which pretty much every mathematician, scientist, logician, statistician, actuary, etc , in the world would disagree with...)
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#120 - 2014-01-12 20:18:44 UTC
I personally always advocate things that benefit me. I'm an EVE player.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016