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Totally broken game mechanic who need changed
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Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2014-01-12 13:38:53 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Mojo Joo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So, the guys who lose sec status, their ship and their insurance, and if they do it enough can be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, don't face a speck of risk.

What they lose, a 800k destroyer when kill a ship who worth 1000-2000 times more? Insurance for destroyers?!?!?!? You are a free time clown or what? Shocked


Explain why it should be impossible to gank a pimpfit ship.

Now explain why a ship should be invulnerable purely because it's expensive.


Not that I agree too much with the OP, but ganking should have a consequence imo. If the consequence is completely non existent, something is wrong.

Imho, you shouldn't be able to:

- gank a player
- loot his stuff
- sell the stuff
- buy sec-status back
- still having profit

That's no consequence at all imho. That's pretty laughable to the point that average mission-runners have 10 times more consequences than gankers do. After all, they do get consequences for shooting stuff in missions (standing-loss), while gankers have a get out of jail card, which is paid by the victim..

Or do you seriously feel that buying sec-tags and moving them to a proper concord-station is an appropriate consequence? 5 minutes of flight-time in a cov-ops to make up for all the consequence? Really?


I don't think so.

Same is true for ganking frighters. Just that the issue is not the ganking, it's the out of jail card gankers can obtain.


Would you rather they had to go spend a couple of hours ratting instead? (And why do you insist on ignoring the multiple posts in this thread pointing out that the gankers don't always CARE about thier sec status? How do you know every ganker in EVE goes and buys tags for sec status?)

ANd how is being able to be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, not a consequence?
Mojo Joo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2014-01-12 13:57:45 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Would you rather they had to go spend a couple of hours ratting instead? (And why do you insist on ignoring the multiple posts in this thread pointing out that the gankers don't always CARE about thier sec status? How do you know every ganker in EVE goes and buys tags for sec status?)

ANd how is being able to be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, not a consequence?


Exactly.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#63 - 2014-01-12 14:17:10 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Would you rather they had to go spend a couple of hours ratting instead? (And why do you insist on ignoring the multiple posts in this thread pointing out that the gankers don't always CARE about thier sec status? How do you know every ganker in EVE goes and buys tags for sec status?)

ANd how is being able to be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, not a consequence?


Exactly.
Exactly what exactly? Exactly they can be shot any time anywhere by any one, when -5 and below? Or exacty that most care less about that because they except it, unlike those that seem not to accept suicide ganking? Or exactly that CCP expect the player base to enact retribution on other players? Or exactly that the whiners fail in this regard and wish mechanics to change, so CCP can hold their hands more?

So back to the question I asked earlier, which you failed to answer.

Why shouldn't suicide ganking be profitable?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Mojo Joo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2014-01-12 14:23:10 UTC
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=FauztX

That is not profitable suicide ganking, that is an insane printing isk machine. 2000 bilions isk killed using just dirty cheap destroyers? In few weeks? And you see nothing wrong? Shocked
Mag's
Azn Empire
#65 - 2014-01-12 14:31:44 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=FauztX

That is not profitable suicide ganking, that is an insane printing isk machine. 2000 bilions isk killed using just dirty cheap destroyers? In few weeks? And you see nothing wrong? Shocked
Yes I see plenty wrong, but not with suicide ganking. This is why you will always be a victim, you fail to see where the problem is.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-01-12 14:34:38 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Gimme more Cynos wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Mojo Joo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
So, the guys who lose sec status, their ship and their insurance, and if they do it enough can be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, don't face a speck of risk.

What they lose, a 800k destroyer when kill a ship who worth 1000-2000 times more? Insurance for destroyers?!?!?!? You are a free time clown or what? Shocked


Explain why it should be impossible to gank a pimpfit ship.

Now explain why a ship should be invulnerable purely because it's expensive.


Not that I agree too much with the OP, but ganking should have a consequence imo. If the consequence is completely non existent, something is wrong.

Imho, you shouldn't be able to:

- gank a player
- loot his stuff
- sell the stuff
- buy sec-status back
- still having profit

That's no consequence at all imho. That's pretty laughable to the point that average mission-runners have 10 times more consequences than gankers do. After all, they do get consequences for shooting stuff in missions (standing-loss), while gankers have a get out of jail card, which is paid by the victim..

Or do you seriously feel that buying sec-tags and moving them to a proper concord-station is an appropriate consequence? 5 minutes of flight-time in a cov-ops to make up for all the consequence? Really?


I don't think so.

Same is true for ganking frighters. Just that the issue is not the ganking, it's the out of jail card gankers can obtain.


Would you rather they had to go spend a couple of hours ratting instead? (And why do you insist on ignoring the multiple posts in this thread pointing out that the gankers don't always CARE about thier sec status? How do you know every ganker in EVE goes and buys tags for sec status?)

ANd how is being able to be shot by anyone, anywhere, anytime, not a consequence?


How is it a consequence if it takes you 5 minutes to get rid of it? Just because some people do not use it doesn't mean it's balanced to have such an option to begin with.

And beeing able to be shot by anyone is hardly a consequence if you can make it stop at any time. The only real consequence is the kill-right, which is laughable if you lose something that is covered by the profit you made earlier.

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2014-01-12 14:35:24 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=FauztX

That is not profitable suicide ganking, that is an insane printing isk machine. 2000 bilions isk killed using just dirty cheap destroyers? In few weeks? And you see nothing wrong? Shocked


First off: Learn what ISK printing actually is. No ISK is created for the gankers in this, they're selling stuff on to other players. ISK creation is things like bounties and insurance.


Now, explain why it's bad that stupid people are getting punished. Explain why a feature that has been in the game for ten years is bad enough for you to complain NOW, and wasn't before.


Now, explain why a dozen people working together shouldn't be able to kill one person simply because that one person spent more money than them.

Now, realise that ISK sum you posted is not over a couple of weeks, it's since November 2012. Even so, split that figure in half for the loot drop, then divide it by the number of people in the ganks, which seems to be 12-15. Numbers just keep on getting smaller. It's profitable, sure, but so are a lot of things in EVE.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#68 - 2014-01-12 14:36:26 UTC
Gimme more Cynos wrote:


How is it a consequence if it takes you 5 minutes to get rid of it? Just because some people do not use it doesn't mean it's balanced to have such an option to begin with.

And beeing able to be shot by anyone is hardly a consequence if you can make it stop at any time. The only real consequence is the kill-right, which is laughable if you lose something that is covered by the profit you made earlier.



Where is your proof that any real numbers of gankers are even using these tags? All I see are assumptions and hilarious tears.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2014-01-12 15:39:02 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
Gankers can just kill faction ships who worth a lot even t2 fitted because they don't risk anything in the process, and is cool to have tens of expensive ships kills on killboard just using cheap destroyers...
Also main problem is that is no backslash anymore for suicide ganking unlimited number of ships in hisec, because security status is not anymore a limited resource, period.


Funny i ran SoE missions before the patch in a BS. i saw many many nado and catalyst gangs and felt very very safe.
The people that ran those missions in blinged out faction ships with all those gankers around deserved to lose their stuff.
You really can't expect CCP to fix stupid.

1. Is my ship profitable to gank?
2. Do gankers often frequent this area?

If you answered yes to both those and still went ahead anyway whose fault is it?
not the gankers and not CCP would be my answer

Money at its root is a form of rationing. When the richest 85 people have as much wealth as the poorest 3.5 billion (50% of humanity) it is clear where the source of poverty is. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/20/trickle-down-economics-broken-promise-richest-85
Mojo Joo
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-01-12 16:57:51 UTC
Silvetica Dian wrote:
[

Funny i ran SoE missions before the patch in a BS. i saw many many nado and catalyst gangs and felt very very safe.
The people that ran those missions in blinged out faction ships with all those gankers around deserved to lose their stuff.
You really can't expect CCP to fix stupid.

1. Is my ship profitable to gank?
2. Do gankers often frequent this area?

If you answered yes to both those and still went ahead anyway whose fault is it?
not the gankers and not CCP would be my answer


So you felt very safe flying an ordinary raven with t2 fit, right? And people who want better ships and modules... deserve to die... just because you say so. OK. Now explain me a thing, where all deadspace modules will be sold after missioners took your advice and fly tech1 battleships with t2 fits?
A lot of null sec carebears will cry after good money who they get in present from high sec missioners. You want to destroy all the demand for expensive stuff, just because is no place safe enough to use that and everyone who use expensive modules deserve to die? Because you say so? You hate rich people or what? Lol

For this ones what advice you have:

https://zkillboard.com/corporation/98185728/kills/

To not fly anymore mining barges and use only ventures? Your vision is so narrow that provoke me an acute sensation of claustrophobia...

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#71 - 2014-01-12 17:17:23 UTC
One would assume the deadspace gear would go to capital, supercapital and particularly rich ratters in nullsec, along with wormhole guys who like to pimpfit their T3s, along with people in highsec who actually know what they are doing, rather than the apparently endless numbers of idiots who buy modules to make awful fits and then cry when they get killed.

There's plenty of use for deadspace gear outside of morons fitting them to mission ships.


The miner ganking has already been explained to you four or five times in this thread, you're just not actually reading it.


Now, will you explain why it is bad for expensive ships to die, and why you think that expensive ships should be immune to ganks simply because they're expensive?

And while you're at it, could you explain why you feel the need to bling out a mission running ship, when you can get 80-90% of the effectiveness for 10-20% of the price?
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#72 - 2014-01-12 17:22:30 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
To not fly anymore mining barges and use only ventures? Your vision is so narrow that provoke me an acute sensation of claustrophobia...


There is quite a lot people can do to avoid being ganked mining:

- fit a tank to their ship that makes them unprofitable to be ganked
- have multiple bookmarks and always be aligned while mining
- watch local for known gankers, dock up when there are many of them
- watch d-scan for incoming gankships and dock up/warp to a safe
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#73 - 2014-01-12 17:25:22 UTC
I cant believe you're still whining. Yah you stop missioning and supplying people with officer mods, that'll show us. The reason why you feel claustrophobic is that you have your head in the sand. Your ship was lost, it was your fault,Its not going to come back, this is the way eve gets played, it was the same when I started 7 years ago. Are you OCD? Did you HAVE to have that ship or something bad happens to the economy, the planet, your parents and all that sort of delusion?

People will continue to be dumb and buy things from you, even if you're just using a BS like the rest of the informed. You had a bubble burst and it goes like this:

You are not a special Snowflake.

It happens, and it likely happens to almost everyone, unless they're docked up for life. Whining won't bring it back, but begging in jita could probably get you the isk to get it back faster than whining here.

It may take a while to hammer this lesson in, but I'd suggest everyone sign their posts like this:

DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFORD TO LOSE

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#74 - 2014-01-12 18:13:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jeanne-Luise Argenau
tbh i think abit like the op even if he should be trolling. But nothing against suicide ganking to make a profit. The thing i have a problem with is that 7 catalysts can take down 1 good tanked hulk. That means a 20M maybe 30M fleet can destroy a 200M hull without big consequences. I dont talk about the fitting just about the hull, and thats where i think concord should lay a fine on them for the difference which automatically gets substracted and if the char cant pay it will either take it from another char on that account or put them in the red. But if that hulk would be fitted with a pith a-type medium shield booster that wouldnt be added to the CONCORD fine and the gankers could still make money out of their "profession".

EDIT:
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:

DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE

That doesnt mean so, that u can replace it :P
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#75 - 2014-01-12 18:18:34 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
tbh i think abit like the op even if he should be trolling. But nothing against suicide ganking to make a profit. The thing i have a problem with is that 7 catalysts can take down 1 good tanked hulk. That means a 20M maybe 30M fleet can destroy a 200M hull without big consequences. I dont talk about the fitting just about the hull, and thats where i think concord should lay a fine on them for the difference which automatically gets substracted and if the char cant pay it will either take it from another char on that account or put them in the red. But if that hulk would be fitted with a pith a-type medium shield booster that wouldnt be added to the CONCORD fine and the gankers could still make money out of their "profession".

EDIT:
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:

DON'T FLY WHAT YOU CAN'T AFFORD TO LOSE

That doesnt mean so that u can replace it :P


Which means that gankers would just store all their ISK on their market alts and fly around with deep negative wallets. It achieves nothing.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2014-01-12 18:19:29 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
tbh i think abit like the op even if he should be trolling. But nothing against suicide ganking to make a profit. The thing i have a problem with is that 7 catalysts can take down 1 good tanked hulk.


Why not? The Hulk is the Exhumer with the lowest EHP, if you are in a situation where you must rely on others to protect you, you'd be better off in a Skiff - which can easily tank 7 catalysts.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#77 - 2014-01-12 18:32:31 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
tbh i think abit like the op even if he should be trolling. But nothing against suicide ganking to make a profit. The thing i have a problem with is that 7 catalysts can take down 1 good tanked hulk.


Why not? The Hulk is the Exhumer with the lowest EHP, if you are in a situation where you must rely on others to protect you, you'd be better off in a Skiff - which can easily tank 7 catalysts.


im not a miner just to make sure. ^^ But rly why should i ever use a skiff in hs only because there might be some griefers who think just let us screw somebody over. Ok maybe a solo miner in a mackinaw would be the same maybe 8 cats to make sure it rly dies. My trouble is just the imbalance when the gankers destroy a expensive hull just for **** and giggles and lose nothing and have nothing to gain from it too.
Sipphakta en Gravonere
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2014-01-12 18:42:20 UTC
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
im not a miner just to make sure. ^^ But rly why should i ever use a skiff in hs only because there might be some griefers who think just let us screw somebody over.


Let me get this straight: Shooting spaceships is now griefing? And of course you would use a Skiff when there are gankers active in the system you mine in - or you use any of the multiple other options to prevent ganking. (Mining aligned, having friends to rep you, griffin/blackbird alts etc)

Quote:
Ok maybe a solo miner in a mackinaw would be the same maybe 8 cats to make sure it rly dies. My trouble is just the imbalance when the gankers destroy a expensive hull just for **** and giggles and lose nothing and have nothing to gain from it too.


Maybe they are industrialists that want to mine in the system without others "stealing" their ore. Or they produce exhumers and want to sell more. Who are you to decide that their way of playing the game is wrong? Surely if they don't gain anything from it they will run out of ISK and stop those unprofitable actions.
Jeanne-Luise Argenau
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2014-01-12 18:51:24 UTC
Sipphakta en Gravonere wrote:
Jeanne-Luise Argenau wrote:
im not a miner just to make sure. ^^ But rly why should i ever use a skiff in hs only because there might be some griefers who think just let us screw somebody over.


Let me get this straight: Shooting spaceships is now griefing? And of course you would use a Skiff when there are gankers active in the system you mine in - or you use any of the multiple other options to prevent ganking. (Mining aligned, having friends to rep you, griffin/blackbird alts etc)

Quote:
Ok maybe a solo miner in a mackinaw would be the same maybe 8 cats to make sure it rly dies. My trouble is just the imbalance when the gankers destroy a expensive hull just for **** and giggles and lose nothing and have nothing to gain from it too.


Maybe they are industrialists that want to mine in the system without others "stealing" their ore. Or they produce exhumers and want to sell more. Who are you to decide that their way of playing the game is wrong? Surely if they don't gain anything from it they will run out of ISK and stop those unprofitable actions.


the first point i concur (with defense against griefers).

the second sry to disapoint but i play the game long enough to have known enough ppl who do that kind of stuff rly only for the giggles. They get such a great feeling out of aggressing a "defenseless" ship and improving their kb just for the fun. And that is by my definition griefing. My point is just that a police force like CONCORD should balance the prices (hull not fitted stuff). But as you are from goon and that being one of your standard mode of operation i will never get u to agree so i wish u fun with the way u play.
Ynot Eyob
Nisroc Angels
The Obsidian Front - Reborn
#80 - 2014-01-12 19:10:21 UTC
I have to agree, its become rediculous.

Iv played for 6 years, iv seen over 100 people stop playing because of this unbalanced deal with ganking.

I dont mind ganks its a part of the game, but at least people should have a chance to defend them self and put up a fight before getting slaughtered by 100m detroyers killing your 2b isk mission ship, or you hard earned freighters.

I lost my Mach last night no big deal, but 15 Trashers took 2 sec to burn down the mach, i didnt even manage to lock any of them up before i was dead, with all hardners overheated.

If i took at BS to low sec, not even faction fitted, at least i get a fight if i meet a dessy gang and last 2-3 min before dieing in flames.

Those 100 people people iv seen stop playing, put ALOT of time and effort into fitting their mission ships, their type of game play. They have over the years dragged alot of new people into the game. Now those 100 people will only talk negative about EVE, and i rather see new people joining than anything else.

Nisroc - Angel of Freedom Nisroc is known as "The Great Eagle".