These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Lets relook at ECM; in a different way than before
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-01-03 07:30:49 UTC
ViRtUoZone wrote:


1. Remove ECM from the game and give Caldari an entirely new form of EWAR. (Not preferable by any means, would require tons of work and lots of people would be upset by the process.


I seriously hate those posts for two reasons

A) fixing something by removing it is not a fix.

B) ECM is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't want to be affected by it, fit something that boosts your signal strength there are even systems that allow you to do remotely boost someone elses signal strength, I suggest you give them a try before complaaining about anything ECM related.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#22 - 2014-01-03 13:18:55 UTC
ecm is not the problem its the volume of use in certain fleet docs. insted of nerfing ECM buff the other electronic attack moduals as ewar is the only kind of tank an ewar ship has.

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-01-03 15:44:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
ViRtUoZone wrote:
So as we can all tell CCP seems to be taking steps to improving the game for small gangs and solo pilots right? Mobile Depots, siphon units ect. Now can we please take a look at fixing ECM. And I don't mean nerfing it or buffing ECCM at what it does; I mean completely fixing the system. Lets give ECCM some love, but in a different way than just buffing them.

Why?

Well for small gangs, such as 3-6 people, one ECM boat cripples the entire fleet and the only reasonable counter is another ECM boat.


Actually you have a few options.

My usual rant.....range. Even before buff I found a use for cerb (we can argue RLM nerf in its many other threads renerfing cerb lol). Sniping falcons was its use. Broken record but....not every ship in fleet should be sr spec. Falcon would be one good reason why.


Or you can mix up the fleet. Not sure what 3-6 man team you have in mind but....when I as falcon pilot had intel of a pure minmatar roam of 3-6 people coming in and I have a few seconds to fit for it before undocking to meet and great them guess what ecm mods I'd put on? racial diversity like in real life is a good thing. You want to force a falcon to rainbow fit. Off racials hurt less and imo multi specs can be iffy (barring officer ones ofc).
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#24 - 2014-01-03 16:42:24 UTC
Make racial jammers have zero effect on other races.

Mulit spectrals aside, it makes it harder for a typical ECM boat with a variety to have an overwhelming impact across the board.
Sigras
Conglomo
#25 - 2014-01-03 20:38:12 UTC
There are two fundamental issues with ECM as it currently stands:

1. It uses a random number generator - Random effects should really be avoided in competitive games. Its the reason that all competitive TF2 servers turn off random crits. Its the reason all the units in StarCraft do an exact amount of damage instead of a range of damage. Randomness means that you can lose because the computer decides that you lose even if you should have won, and there is nothing you can do about it.

TL;DR - Unnecessary randomness has no place in competitive games

2. There is no way to play around ECM - All other forms of E-war are good or at least fair examples of what Extra Credits calls "counter play" IE they give the player options of what to do to work around the effects. With ECM you either leave the field (if you can) or pray to RNGesus that you get unjammed for long enough to shoot . . . This isnt good game design.

The problem is, I have no idea how to fix either of these things, and im guessing CCP doesnt either which is why it remains unfixed.

If anyone has any ideas how to fix one or both of these problems, i'd love to hear it.
ViRtUoZone
Commie Bunny Pirates
#26 - 2014-01-04 05:35:36 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
ViRtUoZone wrote:


1. Remove ECM from the game and give Caldari an entirely new form of EWAR. (Not preferable by any means, would require tons of work and lots of people would be upset by the process.


I seriously hate those posts for two reasons

A) fixing something by removing it is not a fix.

B) ECM is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't want to be affected by it, fit something that boosts your signal strength there are even systems that allow you to do remotely boost someone elses signal strength, I suggest you give them a try before complaaining about anything ECM related.



Yeah, kind of why I put the 'Not preferable by any means part after it'
Sigras
Conglomo
#27 - 2014-01-04 08:17:16 UTC
Debora Tsung wrote:
ViRtUoZone wrote:


1. Remove ECM from the game and give Caldari an entirely new form of EWAR. (Not preferable by any means, would require tons of work and lots of people would be upset by the process.


I seriously hate those posts for two reasons

A) fixing something by removing it is not a fix.

B) ECM is not broken, it's working as intended. If you don't want to be affected by it, fit something that boosts your signal strength there are even systems that allow you to do remotely boost someone elses signal strength, I suggest you give them a try before complaaining about anything ECM related.

our argument is not that ECM is broken IE it does not do what it is designed to do.

Our argument is that it is designed to do something stupid and should be redesigned.

As you can see, from my earlier post, it is considered bad game design that removes all choice from a player and has them sitting there doing nothing.
Coyote Laughing
#28 - 2014-01-04 09:02:32 UTC
Half the problem could be solved by having the ship automatically start to re-lock the original target (waiting the usual lock time delays), which would cut down on annoying mouse clicks.

NPCs don't suffer lag, latency, or response times equivalent to using a mouse and keyboard interface - so why should players? There are supposed to be crew members aboard - surely they can sit at a console somewhere and do that annoying task.

The other option is to make a lock based on a percentage of the relevant module activating every cycle and this value can be reduced by ongoing ECM attacks, but the recovery is scaled like capacitor and shields - fastest under 33%, also weighted by the percentage of the target range compared to the maximum lock range.

l8r \o/
Jureth22
EVE-RO
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2014-01-11 22:33:58 UTC
its hilarious how a kitsune can perma jam a battleship and a battlecruiser from 100km.

do not nerf it,it works good.for the people who use it of course.
Bobby Frutt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2014-01-12 01:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobby Frutt
I don't know too much about EWAR, but in my few experiences using such ships I found with just a Maulus I could reduce the targeting range of ECM pilots I was up against enough to make them ineffective.

A Falcon pilot for instance may jump onto the field at 40km lets say (many times further). With just my Maulus I could cut him down to close to 15km range, making him trek 25km in before he could lock anyone again. I'm guessing the bonus on Celestis would be enough to cut that Falcon down to almost 10km?

Using the example from the post above, we have a Kitsune jamming battleships at 100km. Now the SD pilot jumps in, cuts that Kitsune's range down to under 20km. Now the battleships lock him, and snipe him at 100km. I'm guessing this is how it would go down anyways
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#31 - 2014-01-12 02:06:38 UTC
If you are looking to defeat a falcon....

Sensor damp it so it can't lock anything unless its on top of it. If it can't lock you, it can't jam you. Keep in mind that if a falcon decloaks next to you, you have about 5 seconds to do whatever you want before he can begin locking you.

Drones, drones, and more drones. A falcon will not jam out drones, so try flying a drone boat and if you get jammed, just assist your drones to someone who is not jammed. Or you can even set your drones to aggressive and if the falcon is the only person targetting you, the drones will go after him (Assuming he's in range)

Out range the falcon's jams. Have a couple snipers in your fleet in T3 BC that can hit easily deep into the falcons falloff (reducing his chance to jam).

The biggest thing about ECM is that you are always rolling the dice whether it will work or not. The only time your guarenteed to jam the target is if you get your jam strength higher then your targets sensor strength. While damps and tracking disrupters, they are guarenteed to work within their optimal range.

If you want to look at the effectiveness of damps on their own vs ECM, look at the hookbills double damp fit.

Bottom line is the ECM mechanics are fine as is, if you don't want to see falcons used as much, get in larger fleets. ECM does not scale well and combined with ECM boats lack of EHP, they are not used in large fleets like logis are.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-01-12 06:59:09 UTC
I confirm maulus is a ***** to go against in a falcon.

EWAR is not the I-WIN button you think it is.

One missed jam cycle and youre dead.

Besides, as someone who flies falcons and flies AGAINST falcons often, I can tell you, fit ECCM in a utility mid. Its a good module. And dont fly ships without a utility mid.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#33 - 2014-01-12 10:59:32 UTC
Jureth22 wrote:
its hilarious how a kitsune can perma jam a battleship and a battlecruiser from 100km.

do not nerf it,it works good.for the people who use it of course.
You of course have figures and data, to show this is indeed the case. It would be hilarious if you just made it up.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Gimme more Cynos
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-01-12 12:29:39 UTC
There is a simple solution to fixing ECM.

It's called a DiminishingReturn, and should reduce the duration of each Jam within a certain timeframe (to the point of beeing non effective at all).

I.E. give it a 100% chance to hit, and make it something like 15/7/3.5/1.75/0 (oseconds of jam if ECM is used on the same target within 30/60 seconds.

This would remove the frustration on both sides (damn, I get permajammed for 10 minutes / damn, that important cycle missed). It would make ECM a reliable option to have, and would also solve the issue with paper-thin Scorps which basically have to have mids pumped with ECM's and a paper-tank as a result.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#35 - 2014-01-12 12:48:02 UTC
tl;dr

come back again tomorrow for the next "Nerf ECM" thread!
Previous page12