Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I was trying to figure out a frigate fitting that used smartbombs for something, but I noticed that there is no use at all for smartbombs other than Large Smartbombs on a Battleship. This led me to think of a way to make smartbombs into something usefull and viable.

First let me say that I'm not a pro at PvP nor an overall experienced player at all. For that reason I sticked to analyzing small smartbombs only, as that is the weapon size that I'm more used to. I'm not sure if everything I'll say below apply to all smartbomb sizes without making them overpowered, so bare with me when reading this.

First thing I did was to check the current state of smartbombs. Currently, fitting all high slots in an Atron with T2 small smartbombs of any damage type (their specs are all the same) would lead me to the following with an "all V's" character:

4x Small Smartbombs
28dps @ 3000m optimal/ 0m falloff
280 alpha damage

This not only is obviously underpowered (some blaster fits can have its alpha as DPS, with all V's and ship bonuses), as also eats up most of the ships Powergrid and CPU, leaving no room for much else. I'll do a comparision with the other strongest short range weapons systems available:

Small Smartbombs II
8 MW
30tf CPU
7dps @~3000m

Neutron Blasters II
9 MW
18tf CPU
37 dps @~1500m optimal (Void S)

Rocket Launcher II
4 MW
17tf CPU
22 dps @~8500m optimal (Antiship)

Small Focused Pulse Laser II
11 MW
16tf CPU
25 dps @~3450m optimal (Conflagration)

200mm AutoCannon II
4 MW
9tf CPU
24 dps @~690m optimal (Hail S)

DPS apart, although the smartbombs powergrid consumption does seem balanced for an energy based weapon, its CPU consumption is way to high for a short range weapon, being matched by the Light Missile Launcher II which (not sure) is the highest CPU consuming weapon module to my knowledge.

Before coming to a conclusion on the Small Smartbombs DPS, I'd like to list it's pros and cons (feel free to add any that I haven't thinked of):

Smartbomb Pros
- They can have any damage type with no effect to it's dps (EM, explosive, kinetic and thermal options have the same cycle time of 10 seconds and cause 60hp damage)
- It uses no charges (lasers too but they can still break crystals)
- They are sure to hit if the target is within range (similar to missiles/rockets, disconsidering outrunning them)
- There is no need to lock your target, as FoF missiles (locking is still needed for using other modules, obviously)
- It can hit multiple targets within its range
- Other than tanking, they cannot be countered (unnaffected by linear and angular speed, TD, dampening, ECM and so on)
- It can be used in utility slots
- Only directly affected by one skill (Energy Pulse Weapons, 5% decrease in duration per level)

Smartbomb Cons
- Although damage is selectable, it can only be done while fitting (made easier by recent introduction of mobile depots)
- It hits friends and foes all alike
- It is not friendly with drones usage, as they are also affected even if they are yours
- Currently no ships or modules offer smartbomb bonuses
- Binary damage application (no falloff after optimal)
- As above, it's only directly affected by one skill, so range, fitting, etc; cannot be improved | Edit 1: Weapon Upgrades (CPU) affect smartbombs, while Advanced Weapon Upgrades (Powergrid) does not, according to their descriptions

Personaly, it seems that it's pros and cons are relatively balanced when compared to each other, although I see a lot of pros that make it superior to other weapon systems. Balancing it with its cons, i'd say Small Smartboms would need to have a dps of 20 to 25 hp/s to be a viable weapon system or complement.

This can be easily achieved by dropping it's default cycle time to 3 seconds instead of 10s, which would lead us to:

60hp every 2.55 seconds for 23.5dps for Energy Pulse Weapons III (the minimum for T2 smartbombs)
60hp every 2.25 seconds for 26.6dps for Energy Pulse Weapons V

Although this seems a bit high, as it is only lower than neutron blaster II with Void dps, keep the cons in mind: there's no falloff and no supporting skills/ship bonuses/modules for smartbombs today. So we are looking for the potential fits at most (Energy Pulse Weapons V):

3 utility slots would lead to almost 80dps (79.8)
4 utility slots would lead to a bit more then 106dps (106.4)
8 utility slots (Catalyst i.e) would lead to almost 213dps (212.8)

Those values seem to be easily supprased by any ships (looking at frigates) that have a bonus to any weapons systems, while the ones that don't are still subject to being able to fit that many Smartbombs, besides their low EHP.

Looking back to the Smartbomb fitting, I'd say it's CPU usage should be in the 17tf to 20tf range. This seems balanced to it's pros and cons, avoiding their abuse by ships with a spare high utility slot that already have good dps using other weapons systems. For an Atron to fit 4 small Smartbombs II it would need one or two fitting modules or rigs depending on which limit of that range, even when using Meta 4 modules on the rest.

What would this changes add to the game:

- A weapon system that can be used complementary to the others, or as a solo weapon system
- New piloting strategies. Gangs with smartbombers would have to take care not to be in range with them
- 1 x 2 or more fights could become more interesting. 1 smartbombing frig can cause consistent damage to 2 brawlers withing its range, while 2 smartbombing boats would be hard to use against a single target (hard to keep them apart and their target in range)
- A great counter to drones (although it seems it's potentialy OP against them) and ECM (smartbomb doesn't need lock)
- A new decloaking tool (I'm not entirely sure if damage decloaks ships)
- Lolz due to more people being concord'ed for smartbombing

(character limit)

I'd lean far more towards lowering their fitting cost than raising their DPS. Smartbombs' primarily utility is killing drones and their DPS numbers should be balance with the idea in mind that they will apply full DPS to five drones on them.

Maybe give their DPS a little bump, but I would mostly like to see their fitting costs reduced substantially and perhaps give them a bit more range if needed to make sure that they can reliably hit drones. The goal here is not to make them a viable primary weapon system, the goal here is to make them a useful utility hislot mod.

Drones don't have sig radii that are much smaller than frigates, and have orbit speed that is somewhere inbetween a base-speed frigate and an ABing frigate. Anything like what you describe would probably reduce their ability to damage other ships, as well. You probably can't reduce their damage against drones enough while still letting them hurt other ships.

Keep in mind that what I am describing is a utility hislot module. It should not be a replacement for actual weapons because, as you stated, they would be trash at it. As such, they would need to be balanced in utility against things like neut/nos, not other weapons.

You're right, I haven't checked their signature before.

And I also agree with the utility module point of view. But I ran some numbers and found that, even with 26.6dps output, it would take at least around 30 seconds to take out a hobgoblin II, considering it EHP against thermal (lowest resistance) and Drone Durability V. 30 seconds is enough time for them to put out around 3000 hp in raw damage for a fleet of 5 drones without any ship or module bonuses, 4500 if you're looking at a Vexor, Algos, Dragoon and others which have damage bonuses.

It's arguable that someone could slap two of that and cut that time in half, but there wouldn't be much of a point in that due to the highest fitting requirements amongst small weapons* and for a niche situation**

*The values I listed on the OP don't even consider fitting bonuses such as weapon upgrade and advanced weapon upgrade skills. Although I made a mistake: weapon upgrades does affect smartbombs according to it's description. Advanced on the other hand doesn't.

**Only a handful of frigates can field 5 drones. I can think of Tristan, Astero, Worm and Ishkur. Comet can field 3. The rest won't pose a threat enough to be worth using dual SB, since either they are exlporation ships (which mostly field 3) or can field only one.
In Destroyers, only the Algos and Dragoon can field 5, so fitting 2 or more smartbombs just to counter 12,5% of the destroyer ships wouldn't be worth it. Cruisers and up are way bigger than frigates and you wouldn't have the dps to take them down 1 to 1 even using a full rack of Smartbombs

Your numbers look correct, however it should also be noted that drones do not always apply perfect DPS, due to some quirks in the way in which they function. That being said, in that same 30 seconds, against the unaware or unskilled drone pilot, you are not damaging just one Hobgoblin, but the entire flight of them that's trying to orbit you.

The only other thing I would add is that smartbombs can also be used to unreliably reduce a certain amount of incoming missile damage, since missiles in flight are destructible.

Of course. Drones are a primary weapon system for many ships, and for others, the primary means by which they inflict damage upon smaller ships. Fitting a small smartbomb should not invalidate an entire weapon system, especially if they're to be made easy enough to fit that you can use them as a utility hislot mod reasonably.

I agree. I think there is some adjustments to be done to the original numbers of DPS and fitting that I proposed. But so far it still seems that to make smartbombs viable as a balanced drone counter would still allow it to be used as a main weapon, even if underpowered and just for laughs. Even if we added more fitting requirements, it would still be possible to load a full rack with maybe 3 fitting modules/rigs, which would cripple the fits.

Or they could be restricted to one per ship, as cloaks. But that would ruin all the fun :(

We don't need to arbitrarily stop people from fitting a full rack of smartbombs. It's a bad idea for any kind of direct combat ship, so the only problem we'd cause is perhaps another way for people to shitfit their ships.

Also, I oppose in principle since currently the only way for someone to be podded in lowsec is with smartbombs, and I'd rather not see that element of risk go away.