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Have Goons become the very thing they hated?? (i.e. BoB)

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2014-01-10 12:49:10 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If CFC use them they get a shed ton of supers dropped that they have no ability to counter.
So how would (could?) such a force be countered?

I suggest they try something sand-boxy. Surely they can launch a surprise attack, hit a few systems in the enemies downtime, oh wait, no, timers

We'll well well Goons, having to turn up 24 hours later to face an invincible force that you can't beat sort of sucks doesn't it, now you know how the rest of the server feels :)

Sandbox indeed

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#122 - 2014-01-10 12:56:23 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
If CFC use them they get a shed ton of supers dropped that they have no ability to counter.
So how would (could?) such a force be countered?

I suggest they try something sand-boxy. Surely they can launch a surprise attack, hit a few systems in the enemies downtime, oh wait, no, timers

We'll well well Goons, having to turn up 24 hours later to face an invincible force that you can't beat sort of sucks doesn't it, now you know how the rest of the server feels :)

Sandbox indeed



All of our fleets can be killed by subcaps.
Josef Djugashvilis
#123 - 2014-01-10 13:32:28 UTC
If BoB use to publicly beg CCP to alter the game mechanics to help them in a war, then the goons have indeed become BoB.

If not, then the goons are trying to set a new benchmark in the game, and as such, are not like BoB.

This is not a signature.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#124 - 2014-01-10 13:40:42 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If BoB use to publicly beg CCP to alter the game mechanics to help them in a war, then the goons have indeed become BoB.

If not, then the goons are trying to set a new benchmark in the game, and as such, are not like BoB.


BoB were the first to abuse overpowered capitals. And the second, and the third and the fourth but not the fifth. Whats left from BoB just happen to be in the overpowered caps again and are oddly enough trying to defend yet another capital imbalance.
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2014-01-10 13:43:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If BoB use to publicly beg CCP to alter the game mechanics to help them in a war, then the goons have indeed become BoB.

If not, then the goons are trying to set a new benchmark in the game, and as such, are not like BoB.


BoB were the first to abuse overpowered capitals. And the second, and the third and the fourth but not the fifth. Whats left from BoB just happen to be in the overpowered caps again and are oddly enough trying to defend yet another capital imbalance.
You still haven't told me how you managed to lose a dramiel to a badger... :(

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
#126 - 2014-01-10 13:49:06 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Goon tears are always good. Typical they blame the game for their failures rather than adopt counters like everyone else has had to.


I'd sure like to hear what you think is a good counter for 400+ slowcats.



your own slows/dreads even supers with support.

But wait, thats right, you guys dont have the balls to drop supers do you so next best thing is cry nerf.

You guys as a whole make me laugh, your happy as long as your winning but when moment of clarity hits that you cant win by conventional methods like everyone else has too, you do your best to get that mechanic changed in your favor.

Adapt or die.

Preferably the latter.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#127 - 2014-01-10 13:51:19 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:

your happy as long as your winning


Hi Malcolm, love the name.

In response

Are you happy when you lose?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#128 - 2014-01-10 14:02:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
The problem, of course, is Goons and the irrational hatred people have for them. i've killed so many Goons (and been killed by them) in my time there should be a statue of me erected right next to Molle's house (lol) and I don't fly into irrational rage every time i hear the word 'goon'.

The situation with slowcats is clearly crazy and the current war has demonstrated it, regardless of questions of everyone's motive. My big hope is that people (most importantly ccp) don't start using Axes to fix a balance problem better handled with a scalpel. it's not Archons, drone assist, capital reps, cap transfers, sentry drones or drone mods like damage amps and omnidirectional links, it's how all these things combine.

And I think simple changes can fix the problem.

Like for instance, modify ECM to not just break target locks, but also temporarily (ie for the duration of the jam) sever the link between a ship and it's drones (thus severing the link between the drone using ship and who ever they assisted drones to). After the 50th time an Archon pilot has to endure jamms from 20 Falcons, reconnect to his drones (which he couldn't even pull in to his drone bay, because the link was severed) and re-assist his drones to the FC, he'll want to fly something else lol.
Charlie Firpol
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#129 - 2014-01-10 14:07:16 UTC
Thats a horrible idea and would make ECM in small gangs so much worse. A griffin jamming me and my Warriors, that are already attacking him, just stop?

The problem I really see here is that its still way too early to say there is nothing that can beat Slowcats but "even more slowcats".

The Butcher of Black Rise - eve-radio.com
Prince Kobol
#130 - 2014-01-10 14:12:01 UTC
So is the dasboot doctrine broken and op as well?

Not trolling, just genuine curious.
Prince Kobol
#131 - 2014-01-10 14:14:18 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Goon tears are always good. Typical they blame the game for their failures rather than adopt counters like everyone else has had to.


I'd sure like to hear what you think is a good counter for 400+ slowcats.



your own slows/dreads even supers with support.

But wait, thats right, you guys dont have the balls to drop supers do you so next best thing is cry nerf.

You guys as a whole make me laugh, your happy as long as your winning but when moment of clarity hits that you cant win by conventional methods like everyone else has too, you do your best to get that mechanic changed in your favor.

Adapt or die.

Preferably the latter.



That is the irony of all the goons tears, they have both the carriers / supers / titans to counter but they chose not risk them.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#132 - 2014-01-10 14:22:12 UTC
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Thats a horrible idea and would make ECM in small gangs so much worse. A griffin jamming me and my Warriors, that are already attacking him, just stop?

The problem I really see here is that its still way too early to say there is nothing that can beat Slowcats but "even more slowcats".


Could make a seperate "drone ecm mod" making an ecm ship choose between regualr ecm and it or something.

Whatever the solution, the main point is that knee jerk nerf everything (ie CCP standard procedure) nerfs in the situation would be bad.

Leaving the status quo would be bad too, regardless of it it could be beat by some high impractical one use 'counter' like blap dreads or something. As much as I love my carriers, they are a little too versatile. They Haul lots stuff, jump great distances, do a super job at logistics, do an even more super job at offense and other things. Compare this to Dreads that only ever did one or 2 things semi-well (shooting structures and/or other capitals) and I think you see an imbalance.
stoicfaux
#133 - 2014-01-10 14:25:06 UTC
Look, I think we can all agree that slowcats are a bit of a imbalance. That's easy.

The hard part is coming up with a re-balancing/nerf that doesn't
a) step all over the hard work a player organization did to build up such a sizable fleet,
b) arbitrarily decide the outcome of a player versus player war (i.e. CCP shouldn't be picking winners,) and
c) isn't a PR nightmare for CCP.

IMO, a starting point would be a hard cap on the number of drones that drone assist can provide to a single ship. This wouldn't invalidate (horribly nerf) slowcats and it would allow everyone to gauge whether the "unified command and control" provided by drone assist is the primary problem or not.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2014-01-10 14:27:43 UTC
Angelica Dreamstar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
If BoB use to publicly beg CCP to alter the game mechanics to help them in a war, then the goons have indeed become BoB.

If not, then the goons are trying to set a new benchmark in the game, and as such, are not like BoB.


BoB were the first to abuse overpowered capitals. And the second, and the third and the fourth but not the fifth. Whats left from BoB just happen to be in the overpowered caps again and are oddly enough trying to defend yet another capital imbalance.
You still haven't told me how you managed to lose a dramiel to a badger... :(


I didnt.

Look up Emo TJ.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#135 - 2014-01-10 14:34:49 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Look, I think we can all agree that slowcats are a bit of a imbalance. That's easy.

The hard part is coming up with a re-balancing/nerf that doesn't
a) step all over the hard work a player organization did to build up such a sizable fleet,
b) arbitrarily decide the outcome of a player versus player war (i.e. CCP shouldn't be picking winners,) and
c) isn't a PR nightmare for CCP.

IMO, a starting point would be a hard cap on the number of drones that drone assist can provide to a single ship. This wouldn't invalidate (horribly nerf) slowcats and it would allow everyone to gauge whether the "unified command and control" provided by drone assist is the primary problem or not.



If we insist on hitting all 3 of those points, then drone assist is the lynchpin to hit, I agree.

But as far as "a" goes:

Kinda their fault for all their eggs in one basket. If you actually allow people to make that complaint legitimately about nerfing something overpowered, we might as well just revert the capital tracking nerfs. After all, people did a lot of hard work to get ahold of those too.

So I discount "a" in it's entirety.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#136 - 2014-01-10 14:38:30 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Look, I think we can all agree that slowcats are a bit of a imbalance. That's easy.

The hard part is coming up with a re-balancing/nerf that doesn't
a) step all over the hard work a player organization did to build up such a sizable fleet,
b) arbitrarily decide the outcome of a player versus player war (i.e. CCP shouldn't be picking winners,) and
c) isn't a PR nightmare for CCP.

IMO, a starting point would be a hard cap on the number of drones that drone assist can provide to a single ship. This wouldn't invalidate (horribly nerf) slowcats and it would allow everyone to gauge whether the "unified command and control" provided by drone assist is the primary problem or not.



Exactly. A kind of drone assist "bandwidth" or something. Still it could mean that instead of one guy directing drones you have 10, but the combined alpha of sentry drones might still be a huge problem. The guy getting alpha's doesn't care if it's one guy controlling drones or 10 lol. In other words, it might not be enough to correct the imbalance.

I'm not an RP guy or someone who relies on real world ideas in a spaceship game, but even saying that and understanding that EVE doesn't have to make sense, it's incredible that my 10,000 years in the future space ship can't lock more than 10 targets but at the same time can provide perfect real time telemetry and targeting information for 300 sentry drones spread over several thousand square kilometers lol.

Hell, I don't know what could be done about it that wouldn't end up being a horrible nerf. Good thing is i don't have to, I'm a customer not a DEV lol.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#137 - 2014-01-10 14:48:26 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I'd sure like to hear what you think is a good counter for 400+ slowcats.

your own slows/dreads even supers with support.
So, you're suggesting an “x+1” non-counter. In other words, you're saying that these things are rightfully going to get nerfed hard since they aren't balanced.

Jenn aSide wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
IMO, a starting point would be a hard cap on the number of drones that drone assist can provide to a single ship. This wouldn't invalidate (horribly nerf) slowcats and it would allow everyone to gauge whether the "unified command and control" provided by drone assist is the primary problem or not.

Exactly. A kind of drone assist "bandwidth" or something.

This already exists. It's called drone delegation, and should be a fairly trivial rule swap-in since there already is a class of drones that follows that particular rule.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#138 - 2014-01-10 14:59:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:

This already exists. It's called drone delegation, and should be a fairly trivial rule swap-in since there already is a class of drones that follows that particular rule.


The problem with drone delegation as it stands is that it uses the drone controller's drone bandwidth. It would punish groups that use drones in pve (incursions, lvl 5 mission fleets etc) as well as in defensive gate camps (where you assign drones to a frig/ceptor in an attempt to decloak a cloaky intruder) which would make low and null safer as a result which imo is a bad idea.

That's the biggest problem in my mind, How do you fix a problem that is only a problem in large groups (like slowcat fleets) without screwing over other legitimate gameplay.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2014-01-10 15:10:56 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Priestess Lin wrote:
Goon tears are always good. Typical they blame the game for their failures rather than adopt counters like everyone else has had to.


I'd sure like to hear what you think is a good counter for 400+ slowcats.



your own slows/dreads even supers with support.

But wait, thats right, you guys dont have the balls to drop supers do you so next best thing is cry nerf.

If the largest coalition in the game by far can't drop supers (it's not about balls, little N3 forum alt, it's about not making suicidally stupid decisions) because the other one has more, and as such can't win engagements against slowcats, what chance does anyone else have of uprooting such a deeply entrenched force?

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#140 - 2014-01-10 15:17:03 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
So is the dasboot doctrine broken and op as well?

Not trolling, just genuine curious.

It would be if we fielded them in the same numbers.

stoicfaux wrote:
Look, I think we can all agree that slowcats are a bit of a imbalance. That's easy.

The hard part is coming up with a re-balancing/nerf that doesn't
a) step all over the hard work a player organization did to build up such a sizable fleet,

This is never a consideration. See: tracking titans, supers with drones.

stoicfaux wrote:
b) arbitrarily decide the outcome of a player versus player war (i.e. CCP shouldn't be picking winners,) and

Maybe N3PL shouldn't have put all their eggs in one obviously overpowered basket.

stoicfaux wrote:
c) isn't a PR nightmare for CCP.

They'll be fine.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)