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[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

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I am disposable
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1821 - 2014-01-08 20:23:45 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility.

This is yet another example of where a new "feature" was "suggested", but in reality the final version will essentially be the first version sans some minor cosmetic changes. There's only one organization in EVE that will benefit from being able to obtain and field the Nestor for a fraction of the cost of everyone else. I'm really trying to avoid drinking the kool-aid, but I'm at a loss to figure out how this $2-billion armor logistics blender is supposed to have any appeal?

PS. Now that you're back from holidays, do you think we could please get an RLML update? We've only been waiting since November...

It should be obvious to all at this point that Rise and Fozzie are only going through the motions when it comes to player feedback. Oh well, they are the CCP employees so they make the calls, even if we are trying to help them not add more useless crap to this game.
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1822 - 2014-01-08 20:26:33 UTC
What a shame! I was hoping that the Nestor would give me a reason to fly battleships again but i doubt i'll be flying this ship. If it was a better logistics ship (more range) or had a covert cloak then i would get one but that ain't gonna happen.

To all the high sec care bears and ship spinners out there, enjoy your new toy! o/
Mournful Conciousness
Embers Children
TOHA Conglomerate
#1823 - 2014-01-08 20:34:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Powergrid is tight. Even with two t2 PG rigs and a few other sacrifices I cannot use those two spare highs.

Well what're you fitting on it? it's not supposed to fit tachyons or anytyhing- Dual heavy beams+drones seems to be the way to go

Same as the nano mega I use only with Large pulse. I knew PG was going to limit me but it seems very tight for what the ships bonuses ask for.

Its very interesting but a little more PG so you can make use of those spare highs without losing those large lasers would be nice. I also cant help but feel the ship would be better serviced with missile slots as opposed to lasers but thats just my personal thought.

Given the targeting range of the ship (and drones) it makes no sense to fit large lasers on a nestor. Use mediums. They do as much damage as large ones, and they apply it better. They also use 85% less powergrid.

Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".

Cassius Invictus
Amarr Empire
#1824 - 2014-01-08 20:45:26 UTC
Owen Levanth wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
I can't really say anything about the art since I don't work on it. Personally, I think the art guys do amazing work and Nestor is no exception but it is of course very subjective.

There is no problem with the way the Nestor looks,

Well there is since unlike stratios and astero many ppl complain about its looks. But like CCP Rise said it's a matter of personal taste. I was just asking if enough bad feedback can make them redesign or should we drop the matter entirely.
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1825 - 2014-01-08 20:51:52 UTC
Mournful Conciousness wrote:

Given the targeting range of the ship (and drones) it makes no sense to fit large lasers on a nestor. Use mediums. They do as much damage as large ones, and they apply it better. They also use 85% less powergrid.

It would have been nice to make use of that optimal range bonus. Fitting med guns on this is part of the reason why I would have liked to have seen missiles instead as it gives me more options but it might be a bit too good a thing to have.
Sanai Nobuseri
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1826 - 2014-01-08 21:08:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sanai Nobuseri
@ccp, I have one small issue with the SOE battleship im wondering weather or not has been adressed. All the SOE factions ships have followed the theme of being covert, the Soe bs Nestor should imo follow the same them and be treated like a blops in that it can be used to bridge other cov ops ships similar to regular blops battleships. Just my 2 cents.

Edit: Or allow it at the very least to take a covert bridge.
mr roadkill
Silent but Violent
#1827 - 2014-01-08 21:10:42 UTC  |  Edited by: mr roadkill
CCP Rise wrote:
edit: The SMA on Singularity is an error (someone tried to sneak it on while I was away for vacation I guess) and it will be removed before release.

Ship is now pointless in my humble(?) opinion... It would have made a great Wormhole caravan with the low mass and SMA for a small group of people to tour though low end wormholes and store their stuff in - since you guys originally didnt want anyone to 'live' in a wormhole full time with pos etc.

Seeing the SMA on SISI I was hoping for a Sort of support BS semi orca type of thing.... Sort of a travlling wormhole group. You know sort of.... exploration?
Roy Alleyne
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1828 - 2014-01-08 22:28:03 UTC
MukkBarovian wrote:
I feel the need to defend CCP decisions.

Excellent, you have a lot of the major talking points in the thread all at once, let us look at the counterpoints.
MukkBarovian wrote:
First off there are a lot of people claiming they want this ship to be an exploration bonused ship with a cloak. You are all badwrong. Even with a cloak it would be suicidally dumb to explore with a battleship. In the 7-10 seconds it takes to align and warp a competent interceptor pilot would decloak you. Maybe you could slip through some camps by cloaking, MWDing, and Aligning, but its still iffy. Scouting is best done with an interceptor, covert ops, or a recon, something cheap that doesn't cost as much as or more than a carrier.

Next a jump drive isn't actually an exploration tool at all. Someone has to light a cyno, which means that that person was the explorer, probably in a recon. A jump drive or a covert bridge is a bonus to rapid deployment. Furthermore if this had a black ops style jump drive it would be the most powerful thing capable of appearing through a covert cyno in terms of tank, gank, and rep. Speaking as a member of an alliance that regularly drops black ops battleships onto things, we would all switch in an instant to Nestors, cost be damned.

You are right if you are talking about solo exploration. However, BS hulls are fleet ships in everything other than high sec L4 missions. When we say we want an exploration BS, what we mean is a BS capable of moving around safely when escorted by other, smaller ships. In a fleet exploration role, a BS would provide extra dps and tank for running the more difficult combat signatures found in hostile space. BlOps, especially the Sin, are already used for this role with a recon or T3 scouting and lighting cynos for them. However, since the SoE are exploration specialists and considering that they are limited to T1 hulls, a few suggestions for perfecting the Nestor for such a niche role are a cloaked velocity bonus to allow the ship to hide, SMA for increased fleet logistics ability, and a CJD to skip systems entirely.

A cloaked velocity bonus would be the cheapest and most versatle addition in terms of balance, though there are excellent arguments for a CJD as well. Both add survivability to the ship and increase its speed when traveling through multiple systems. In terms of fleet support in combat the RR, dps, and tank may be enough but an SMA would allow a small exploration fleet to operate for days or weeks in Wspace or deep null without ever needing to anchor themselves to a POS or risk docking in a hostile station. Rise has addressed the SMA, even if I disagree, but cloaked velocity and CJD remain questions.
MukkBarovian wrote:
Finally this ship does have an exploration bonus. Its hardwired into the hull. It reads something like -50% ship mass -50% ship velocity. This is a significant wormhole exploration bonus. It means you can fit twice as many of these things through any given wormhole. It means you can fly these through wormholes without worrying nearly as much about the WH collapsing behind you. It makes the Nestor a possible support ship for wormhole fleets, which generally consist of low mass T3 cruisers, and a few exceptionally good BS that justify their high mass through massive utility, like the Bhalgorn.

Yes, the Nestor will be both faster than other BSs with a prop mod and move through whs with a much smaller foot print. However, it is surpassed in Wspace pvp by other ships both in RR and dps. Logi cruisers can still provide greater repping power per kg, lock faster, and take less damage than the Nestor. T3s produce greater dps per kg, lock faster, and ambush their tagets from stealth. The only situation a Nestor would come into play would be when you have more isk then sense and want a single pilot to manage RR, sentries, cap, and their own tank, all while striving to stay within range of both the enemy and their own fleet.
MukkBarovian wrote:
Lets now look at the wierd proliferation of bonuses. The bonuses on this ship give it two possible roles. Its either a drone boat with utility highs that can be used for additional damage or RR, or its an oversized Guardian with 200-300K EHP and 1.5 times the repping power that just happens to have 450DPS worth of drones. In either case it seems like an excellent ship. Its clearly better than the alternatives when cost is not a factor. Our only problem is one of cost. At the current price its better to bring a triage carrier than an overpowered guardian, and its hard to justify using this in a drone configuration when you could fly a Domi for much cheaper or fly an Archon and be much tougher.

As a drone boat, it lacks damage application and targetting range. As an oversized Guardian it lacks RR range, cap transfer, and lock time. Cost is always a factor, even if your most expensive attribute in a fleet is the pilot and fitting them with the best is the most cost effective approach, bringing a specialist ship for either of those roles is still cheaper.

The sand box will always adjust at its own rate but I think it is reasonable to assume that the Nestor will be in the same cost bracket as a carrier for the forseeable future, even if it starts out as cost competitive with a dreadnaught.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1829 - 2014-01-08 22:48:41 UTC
People are REALLY spoiled. THey want a ship with domi bonuses.. both of the,,, abaddon bonus, AND guardian bonus.. and covert ops bonus?


"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Navy Veteran Club
#1830 - 2014-01-08 22:49:44 UTC
Looks like this is done deal... at least lower the LP cost if the stats and bonuses are to be kept...
Be Nice Inc.
#1831 - 2014-01-08 23:05:17 UTC
Hostility towards devs and other forum posters only discourages developers from engaging threads like this at all. You might not be happy about the state of the Nestor (I'm not) but let's just be grateful that devs take the time to explain themselves here even when they don't have to, knowing full well that whatever they suggest will get picked apart by forum pvpers anyway.

I would like to hear Rise's thoughts on some of the other changes that were mentioned though, like a cloaked speed bonus or a non-covert jump drive. I was leaning toward a jump drive, but the cloaked velocity bonus would help this ship get around both k-space and wormholes without making it overpowered. Warp core strength could too, but I think that's the tackier of the suggested solutions.
Can you see the rapier?:,GH6lqDE
Savira Terrant
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1832 - 2014-01-08 23:20:00 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
People are REALLY spoiled. THey want a ship with domi bonuses.. both of the,,, abaddon bonus, AND guardian bonus.. and covert ops bonus?


We don't want the all at the same time. We just compare it to all those roles to make clear that it lacks in all departments and thus no incentive exists to choose this over another ship...


Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
#1833 - 2014-01-08 23:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Aeril Malkyre
Bloody forum ate my post.
Arthur Aihaken
#1834 - 2014-01-08 23:33:57 UTC
XvXTeacherVxV wrote:
You might not be happy about the state of the Nestor (I'm not) but let's just be grateful that devs take the time to explain themselves here even when they don't have to, knowing full well that whatever they suggest will get picked apart by forum pvpers anyway.

That's funny. These forums are a free source of R&D, so they'd be insane not to sift through them. That being said, the Nestor was more or less set in-stone months ago. Anyone that thinks otherwise is deluding themselves about the kind of influence individual players have.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Quinn Corvez
Caldari State
#1835 - 2014-01-08 23:42:13 UTC
CCP rise, if you prove 90% if the people in this thread wong and the proposed nestor turns out to a worthwhile addition the the ships in eve, great but if you don't, I look forward to this ship being fixed/rebalanced inthe future.
#1836 - 2014-01-09 00:46:50 UTC
I think the Nestor is such a controversial ship because it comes so close to being awesome in lots of ways, without actually succeeding in any of them. For most players it is a hard ship to find a place for. For a ship that costs so much, it should excel a bit at something. Now I am mostly a pvper/ganker, but I have done a fair amount of sites and missions, and fit ships for the roles, so here is my breakdown of the issues with the ship.

Muddy Focus/Price:
One of the major issues is what you are getting for the price. You have introduced a ship that is good at doing things people have been doing effectively for years without it. Granted, its jack of all trades design makes it unique at the BS class. That being said, one of the core abilities of the Nestor is its remote rep bonuses. It is a great bonus, but one that implies flying with other people, lets face it, if you are flying with other people, a jack of all trades is a bit unnecessary.

It was mentioned that the Nestor's reduced mass was for wormhole exploration. Now, since I don't spend much time in WH space, I could be wrong, but exploring with an expensive faction BS, with no inherent evasive abilities, just seems a bit suicidal.

Thoughts on bonuses-
Racial Bonuses:
I actually like the racial bonuses of the ship, and while I could see some tweaking, they work.

Role Bonuses-
Remote Rep Bonuses:
I like the RR bonuses on the ship, while arguments can be made that it should have a better range bonus, overall the rep bonuses give it a bit of something unique that other battleships don't have. I haven't had a chance to play with one so I can't be sure, but I believe a cap cost bonus could make this feel better.

Energy Turret Bonus:
Really just feels tacked on, extra range is nice, I suspect few people will actually use lasers. With high fitting costs and cap usage, it would be prohibitive to try and use them along with Large Remote Armor Reps.

Scan/ Virus Strength:
Again, feels a bit tacked on. I can see it being used a bit when you are off in your own pocket in Null, but grabbing an actual probe ship doesn't take any real time or effort. Without a covert cloak, the Scan bonus just feels kind of pointless. You could argue that it makes it good for ghost sites, but since i haven't seen one yet, I can't comment on that.

Proposed Adjustments:
Racial Bonuses:
Keep existing, add 10% per level for logistics drones.

Role Bonuses-
Remote Rep:
Keep existing, add cap reduction for remote armor reps (energy transfer bonus would be another viable alternative).

Energy Turret Bonus:

Scan/Virus Strength:
Remove or reduce Scan bonus, keep Virus Strength for ghost sites.

Goal for changes:
The Nestor appears to be designed for flexibility and support. While the ship allows for many options, the flexibility of design keeps it from being able to excel in any of them. The goal of these changes is to create a ship that can fill a dedicated support role, while still maintaining combat flexibility.

Closing Notes:
My ideas listed here are fairly spur of the moment, and do not represent any emotional commitment from me. I feel that SoE represents exploration and aid. Exploration has been well covered in the Stratios and Astero, aid can be represented now in the Nestor. While a heavier logi focus may not be the most popular choice for an expensive faction BS, it would give the ship a market, beyond just being a shiny ship to collect.

Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#1837 - 2014-01-09 01:16:14 UTC
It'd be absolutely fine, once prices stabilized, for it to have the current stats- however, that may take quite a while
Arthur Aihaken
#1838 - 2014-01-09 02:02:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Arthur Aihaken
Uriel Paradisi Anteovnuecci wrote:
It'd be absolutely fine, once prices stabilized, for it to have the current stats- however, that may take quite a while

Define "price-stabilized". If you eventually value SoE LP @ 1k ISK per, that puts the lowest price at $1.1-billion ISK, but realistically $1.15-$1.2-billion ISK is going to be bottom of the barrel. Those that have excellent manufacturing skills will be able to produce it from a blueprint for less, but other than fulfilling their own needs - they'll be selling it for market rates. I'm basing this on the Stratios which is hovering around the $335-million mark (300k LP and $20-million ISK). I appreciate that the Nestor follows in the footsteps of the Astero and Stratios in terms of slot assignments, but it's shaping up to be a $1.2-billion armor logistics blender that offers a mixed bag of snakes in terms of fit such that it's not going to necessarily excel at anything.

The tragedy is that the Nestor really had so much potential, and not just from a design standpoint ("subjective" is a way of justifying something as "art" when it's universally hated). The exploration and logistics roles seem to conflict, and one has to wonder what alliance fleet doctrine has been steadily pushing for this behind the scenes. So what could have been done with the Nestor instead?

How about making it the fastest battleship with a base warp speed of 3.0 AU/s, and bump the Astero to 5.5 AU/s and Stratios to 4.0 AU/s. Give them all a fixed role bonus of a 50% reduction to CPU penalty for Hyperspace rigs. With the exploration theme, give them all an inherent warp core strength bonus of +1. Finally, since the Nestor prominently features a rescue shuttle - have the player appear in it instead of a pod. The rescue shuttle would be unique that on destruction of the Nestor it would automatically micro jump 50km away.

Aside from new art, why is it so challenging to come up with some unique features for both the new ships and ones being rebalanced?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.

Celia Therone
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1839 - 2014-01-09 03:10:16 UTC
How about giving the Nestor a built in neut resistance? That might help give it a logistics niche where you'd strategically prefer a Nestor over other logistics (if you expected to be facing heavy neuting) but still leave room for other logistics ships to flourish.
Divi Filus
New Xenocracy
#1840 - 2014-01-09 03:42:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Divi Filus
What is the intended role of this ship?

The "mission statement" for the SoE ships, as laid out back in October, was:

What we're shooting for is ships that are themed around exploration and therefor make good platforms for a range of activities including probing, hacking, exploration combat sites, anoms, killing anom runners, spying on people, looking super sexy and generally being kind of awesome.

To that was added:

We're supporting that model with things like:

  • Covert cloaks
  • Exploration role bonuses
  • Drone and laser weapon systems with large cargo and drone bays so that you don't have to go home often
  • Extremely high ship agility

Following that trend, the Nestor should be an “exploration battleship” (where “exploration” includes, as above, not only probing down and running sites, but also killing other explorers, spying, etc.). And to that end it has many of the same features listed above: exploration role bonuses, drones/lasers, large bay sizes, high agility. What it lacks is the covert cloak.

That much, at least, is probably for the best. True, a covert cloak would probably make the Nestor great (or much better, anyway) for exploration, for the same reason why it makes the Stratios and Astero good: it lets the ship move around in hostile territory much more easily, and with much less chance of interruption, than an uncloaked ship, which in turn helps with several aspects of “exploration” as defined above (including dropping in on anom runners and being super spai). But it would also make the Nestor great for other (IMHO less desirable) purposes as well: think cloaky-RR-sentry-Domi blobs. A Nestor can also project damage better than any other covert-capable ship in game, which speaks to Rise’s concern about the amount of DPS coming through BlOps bridges. Finally, it’s questionable why this ship should get a covops before even the BlOps themselves, if indeed they ever get it.

So if we take the main (not to say only) role of a covert cloak on an explorer as ease of movement, what could the Nestor get instead? There are a few possibilities, some better than others, most or all mentioned before.

Cloaked speed bonus: Like the BlOps, this would let the Nestor align under cloak, then decloak and instantly enter warp. It wouldn’t be able to approach (or land on) a grid while cloaked, which alleviates at least some of the concerns about the power of a cloaky battleship. It would also be visible on d-scan while on the move. In short, it’s a modest but perhaps important buff to its ability to travel in hostile space, which I think was probably a major factor in giving the other SoE ships cloaks in the first place. (This also appeals to the part of me that reads the Nestor’s description and thinks how very, very sad it is that Sanctuary poured all that money into BS cloaking research and failed to even replicate the closest thing to a true cloaky BS that already exists—but maybe that’s just me.)

Jump drive: This would help travel in low- and nullsec iff it could jump to a covert cyno (which might infringe too closely on the BlOps role). If it were restricted to standard cynos, it would be essentially useless as a “hostile territory explorer” bonus in sov null, and that’s saying nothing about the wisdom of jumping a 2 billion ISK battleship to a cyno that anyone can see.

Increased warp speed: Would certainly ease the post-Rubicon pain of battleship warp time, but I’m not sure it’s enough of a bonus in and of itself to make the Nestor attractive as an explorer (almost certainly not if the warp speed is less than a cruiser’s).

Interdiction nullification: The holy grail of ease of movement. Personally, I think it’s a terrible idea. In the first place, the last thing we need (particularly so soon after interceptor balance) is a proliferation of bubble-immune ships, let alone battleships. In the second, it may not actually be that helpful: if you jump into any bubble camp that isn’t completely, 100% inept, they’ll be able to web and scram you while you wait out your battleship-sized align time without a cloak. Also, it’s a terrible idea.

Increased warp stability: Quite possibly still a terrible idea, but not as terrible as bubble immunity (which, by the way, is terrible). Might have some potential. Included here for completeness.

Black Ops bridging: Buy a Sin.

Any of these (even the terrible ones) would, I think, help compensate for the lack of covert ops capability by giving the Nestor something that plays a similar role in increasing its mobility through hostile space—something which the Nestor, as a battleship, needs at least as much as the other SoE ships, if not more. Right now, what it has is a comparatively light mass, but as several WHers have pointed out, that alone isn’t necessarily enough to make the Nestor attractive for exploration in wormholes (and certainly does nothing to help anyone in K-space).