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The great missile debate

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scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#261 - 2013-12-30 18:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: scorchlikeshiswhiskey
This seems like a good place to ask this question. Why do missiles, specifically kinetic missiles, that are guided by quantum computers explode at a distance from the target instead of in contact?

If we replaced missile explosion radius/velocity with an innate missile tracking/agility figure we could create a scenario in which cruise missiles have a hard time impacting a moving frigate. If this accompanied a broad spectrum trauma bandage to missiles as a temporary fix before a long hard look, this would seem to help to fix damage application and maybe balance things out a little bit better. Change the words of the skills so that instead of a skill for explosion velocity you now have a skill for missile tracking (primary) and velocity (secondary), this would also allow for some range in missile damage i.e. if a cruise missile can't get in contact with a moving frig it will explode at a close range dealing partial damage using secondary radius/velocity figures.

Also, with a varying damage profile and explosion in contact with the hull comes the potential for a critical hit similar to projectiles. For the sake of balance maybe missiles shouldn't crit quite as high, I'm not really sure, but if a highly skilled missile pilot manages to engage a very webbed frig there is the chance for a critical hit "blap", and there is also the chance that the missiles still can't get close enough if there aren't enough webs or TP's on the target and the missiles only deal 10% damage or somesuch.

This would also tend to mean that light missiles would almost always do maximum damage against BC and BS size targets, I'm not sure if this would be a problem with the current mechanics or if missile damage would need to be tweaked slightly when shooting up more than 2 hull sizes in the same way that shooting down 2 hull sizes is problematic.

Thoughts?

*tracking from the missile itself, not the mother ship*
**obviously this a very raw idea since it just came to me and I don't dip into the Eve-math enough to say what exactly would happen, with that being said I would appreciate constructive criticism and detailed replies instead of just saying it's a bad idea. :) **
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#262 - 2013-12-30 20:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Thoughts?
Considering how bad drones are at chasing ships and how hard it is to correctly bump a moving ship, I don't think your missiles would hit often. It would only take to orbit to avoid them completely.

Also, I don't know why you want to completely remove the missiles mechanic compltely from the game. If you don't like missiles, don't use them, but asking to remove them from the game completely is sad IMO.

You machanic is interesting for another type of missile or a new weapon system though.
Yazzinra
Scorpion Ventures
#263 - 2013-12-31 03:58:45 UTC
Thaddeus Eggeras wrote:
AND I want the damn torp explosion wave back, it was so pretty


10% tidi + torp detonations = pure sexy.
S4nn4
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#264 - 2014-01-09 00:01:50 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
This seems like a good place to ask this question. Why do missiles, specifically kinetic missiles, that are guided by quantum computers explode at a distance from the target instead of in contact?

If we replaced missile explosion radius/velocity with an innate missile tracking/agility figure we could create a scenario in which cruise missiles have a hard time impacting a moving frigate. If this accompanied a broad spectrum trauma bandage to missiles as a temporary fix before a long hard look, this would seem to help to fix damage application and maybe balance things out a little bit better. Change the words of the skills so that instead of a skill for explosion velocity you now have a skill for missile tracking (primary) and velocity (secondary), this would also allow for some range in missile damage i.e. if a cruise missile can't get in contact with a moving frig it will explode at a close range dealing partial damage using secondary radius/velocity figures.

Also, with a varying damage profile and explosion in contact with the hull comes the potential for a critical hit similar to projectiles. For the sake of balance maybe missiles shouldn't crit quite as high, I'm not really sure, but if a highly skilled missile pilot manages to engage a very webbed frig there is the chance for a critical hit "blap", and there is also the chance that the missiles still can't get close enough if there aren't enough webs or TP's on the target and the missiles only deal 10% damage or somesuch.

This would also tend to mean that light missiles would almost always do maximum damage against BC and BS size targets, I'm not sure if this would be a problem with the current mechanics or if missile damage would need to be tweaked slightly when shooting up more than 2 hull sizes in the same way that shooting down 2 hull sizes is problematic.

Thoughts?

*tracking from the missile itself, not the mother ship*
**obviously this a very raw idea since it just came to me and I don't dip into the Eve-math enough to say what exactly would happen, with that being said I would appreciate constructive criticism and detailed replies instead of just saying it's a bad idea. :) **


Seems like you suggest that a) missiles could miss and b) get some form of random damage. In other words, they should behave more like guns. Not sure that is the kind of change I want to see, I kind of like that they have their differences, even if that makes things trickier to balance.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
#265 - 2014-01-10 01:28:46 UTC
Saul Rogers wrote:
Red Teufel wrote:
missile systems have been brought back into line. they use to be so stupid op. and if you want something very OP fly a tengu.


I had fun reading your post, your attempt to make believe people that missiles are OP is just hilarious and pitiful, don't post when you have nothing to say please......


I think someone is sad his 100 drakes in station no longer the best ship for... everything awwww
Lina Theist
Running out of Space
ExoGenesis Consortium
#266 - 2014-01-10 15:08:47 UTC
Make missiles stronger, rework defender missiles to countermeasures (CM) with different sizes.

Use these in utility highslots, they deploy charge(s) with ehp, missiles (a percentage of them, depending on CM and on skills/bonuses) are drawn to them in higher priority than their intended targets until they are destroyed. Different sizes could either launch different sizes of CMs or number of charges loaded.

Use CMs to mitigate the superior DPS from missiles compared to turrets. Could introduce some kind of anti-missile ships.


Just an idea that I think would add flavor to the missile system, and who cares if it makes missiles superior in pve
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2014-01-10 16:39:56 UTC
Is it just me or do rockets sometimes miss?

i dropped in on a corax farming a FW plex the other day to test out my vengeance.

I shot rockets at him continuously and he was taking good damage. then he stopped taking damage for ages. while i still had to rep his dps.

then he started taking damage again and finally popped.

he did NOT move out of my effective range when the dps dropped off. he was roughly 6km away iirc. the dps just stopped. i dont think he was packing a repper either.

totally weird.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#268 - 2014-01-10 20:52:39 UTC
S4nn4-
I think that missiles should have a slight variation possible in damage itself, after fixing some glaring application problems, as a trade off for allowing the potential for greater than 100% damage. i.e. a critical hit.

I do not want missiles to behave completely like turrets, but f there is a +/- 5% variation in damage, I would not complain. To expand, let's hypothesize that 95% and 105% damage has a 5% chance of happening per missile strike, 96/104 have a 10% chance.... This number would be used in conjunction with the damage application number to come up with a slight variation in damage that can be rationalized being a function of the location of the missile detonation in relation to critical areas of the ship or something.

My numbers are just a hypothetical set of numbers, missiles should not crit as high or as often as projectiles but I am willing to accept a chance for slightly reduced damage to allow an equal chance at equally increased damage. I would also be open to some other type of mechanic in place of damage, but that is most likely a long, long way off.
Humang
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#269 - 2014-01-11 13:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Humang
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Is it just me or do rockets sometimes miss?

i dropped in on a corax farming a FW plex the other day to test out my vengeance.

I shot rockets at him continuously and he was taking good damage. then he stopped taking damage for ages. while i still had to rep his dps.

then he started taking damage again and finally popped.

he did NOT move out of my effective range when the dps dropped off. he was roughly 6km away iirc. the dps just stopped. i dont think he was packing a repper either.

totally weird.

Could it be that he was kitting away from you with you following? If I remember rockets (faction/rage) should only travel about 8km to so on a un-bonused (velocity or flight-time that is) hull. It's possible that the velocity he had was reducing the actual effective flight range of you rockets to the point to where they couldn't reach him.
Is the only thing I can think of.



More on track, missiles shouldn't be about doing amazing damage comparative to turrets, but doing consistent damage.
Turrets all share the bell-curve in terms of damage application, the most is done at there optimal but dropping off beyond or before that point, Missiles are flat linear, doing the same damage no-matter the distance, but just don't have the same damage capability as turrets.

The current missile mechanics are fine, its just the numbers as a whole need to be tweaked (little less damage, better application)

Rockets are the perfect example of where missiles should be; when vs'ing blasters or ac you don't sit at their optimal, you kite at range; vs'ing arty or rails, you get up-close and exploit there tracking, rockets don't have the damage potential of blaster, nor the range of rails, but they make up for that in adaptability. Missiles should emphasise the skill if a pilot, be about mitigating your opponents damage while you deal your own average, but consistent damage.

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