These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Rubicon 1.1] Sisters of EVE Battleship

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1781 - 2014-01-08 09:34:49 UTC
So it has a ship maintenance bay with 0m3 space. Might as well increase it to 5000m3 so it can actually dock a shuttle like the model suggests it does. It's hardly game breaking Cool

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
mr roadkill
Silent but Violent
#1782 - 2014-01-08 09:50:46 UTC
Galphii wrote:
So it has a ship maintenance bay with 0m3 space. Might as well increase it to 5000m3 so it can actually dock a shuttle like the model suggests it does. It's hardly game breaking Cool


Was about to ask about this....

Will it be keeping the SMA? If so what size will it be roughly?
Cassius Invictus
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1783 - 2014-01-08 09:55:44 UTC
Kasife Vynneve wrote:
Implying Implications wrote:
What is the point of this ship?



ISK Sink and Shiny Killmail decoration


I agree with killmail decoration, but why would anyone want to sink his ISK in a dil*o shaped battleship is beyond me Big smile.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1784 - 2014-01-08 11:00:57 UTC
Galphii wrote:
So it has a ship maintenance bay with 0m3 space. Might as well increase it to 5000m3 so it can actually dock a shuttle like the model suggests it does. It's hardly game breaking Cool


That would be fun and not game breaking :D

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#1785 - 2014-01-08 11:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
Hi guys, sorry for the winter break in communication. Hope you all had a good holiday!

I've been catching up a bit here and I'll try to comment on some of what I'm seeing.

There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set. This is a ship that is meant to function at pirate faction meta level and is attainable at less risk than other pirate faction Battleships because of being available in high sec, which warrants the step up in LP cost. If it turns out that price is so prohibitive that people can't justify using the Nestor as much as we would want we can investigate ways to make it more attractive or make it easier to get, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

As far as the ship design itself, everyone is trying to tug it in a direction that matches their ideal application, which makes sense considering that for most people some ship traits won't be useful due to their diverse nature. I want to reiterate that removing some of these smaller traits wouldn't necessarily mean we could suddenly add something else. The exploration bonuses are a good example. Many people won't use the hacking or probing bonus, but in some cases they will add nice options. For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents. These bonuses come cheap in terms of balance and characterize the Sisters of EVE ships as a whole so we like including them, but don't let that make you think they are there in place of something more focused and powerful.

Specifically, there are suggestions relating to:
  • Smartbomb bonuses - I think this would be fun to get in somewhere but the Nestor is definitely not the right place
  • More damage - it already has huge damage potential because of being drone bonused with 5 turrets, and pure tank and gank is not meant to be it's strong point.
  • More tank - it is extremely important that it can tank well enough to run most PVE content, if this isn't the case we would make adjustments but we don't expect that to be a problem. Outside of that, just like with damage, it isn't meant to be overly strong in this area.
  • Covert cloaking - we discussed this extensively and ultimately agreed that it is both too powerful, and also should belong on a tech 2 battleship before a pirate faction if it were to happen.
  • Black ops bridging - again, power level is a big concern here. We already upped the amount of damage you can bring through covert bridges with the Stratios and don't want to extend that even further. It's possible that if Black Ops had been rebalanced before the Nestor went in we may have been more likely to echo some Black Ops function, but without knowing how that rebalance will pan out exactly we didn't want to go that direction at this time.
  • MJDs - Marauders just picked up a focus on MJDs and it would be strange to do the same with the Nestor.
  • Ship maintenance arrays - we talked about this a lot as well but the new personal depots cover this function nicely without ever leading to afk gameplay (which would be a risk if it was on the Nestor)

    • After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility.

    I'll be reading further discussion and will keep you updated on any future changes, hope this answered some of your questions.

    edit: The SMA on Singularity is an error (someone tried to sneak it on while I was away for vacation I guess) and it will be removed before release.

    @ccp_rise
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1786 - 2014-01-08 11:39:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    CCP Rise wrote:
    There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set.


    Lets be completely clear about this.

    The price of a Nestor will be dictated by:

    * supply of people generating SoE LP
    * demand for SoE faction implants
    * demand for SoE probes and launchers
    * demand for SoE astero and stratios
    * the relative cost/benefit of a Nestor over the two smaller ships.

    If the utility value of the Nestor is not high enough it will become illogical to produce them since no rational player will consume them, and the conversion the LP to a Nestor BPC will be a suboptimal trade.*

    Thus if this is the case, you will have a broken market in Nestors.

    This is ABC economics is it not? The system breaks without fluidity.

    The question is of course, "is the Nestor's utility value high enough to justify the investment". In the end the logs will tell you (and I applaud you for taking a data-driven approach to Eve design). But the madness of crowds is giving you a warning signal at the moment that the answer is likely to be, "no".

    Woud that be a fair appraisal of events so far?

    * Explanation:
    The conversion price of an LP to a Nestor is a fixed value - akin to price fixing in a real market. Price fixing has historically always led to a collapse of economies and the creation of artificial shortages. If the price of a Nestor is truly to be set by supply and demand, then the LP cost of a Nestor BPC would need to be a fluctuating value, dependent on some derivative of supply and demand.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1787 - 2014-01-08 11:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mournful Conciousness
    (using unintentional double post to provide an example)

    An example of this broken market is the fact that we don't see any navy drakes being flown.

    Why?

    The LP cost of a navy drake is a fixed amount, which means that the navy drake's prices is set by the desirability of every other Caldari faction item rather than the desirability of the ship itself. Further, since players are free to mission for whomever they choose, the price of a Navy Drake (the least desirable navy BC) is actually set by the desirability of the most desirable navy faction items, such as navy invulnerability fields, navy nano membranes, navy armour repairers, navy ammo of all kinds and POS fuel.

    Thus the incentive to produce a Navy drake is zero since to be desirable the ship needs to command a price of roughly half of the price dictated by the market price of the component LPs. "roughly half" is my mental calculation of what I would pay for one. That is to say, for me the clearing price of a Navy Drake is about ISK100m at best.

    Another example would be navy guns and missile launchers. The utility value is marginally better than a meta-4 and worse than a T2, so the real market clearing price would be closer to ISK 2M than the ISK 70M dictated by the LP store.

    I could go on...

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Mike Whiite
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #1788 - 2014-01-08 11:47:38 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys, sorry for the winter break in communication. Hope you all had a good holiday!

    I've been catching up a bit here and I'll try to comment on some of what I'm seeing.

    There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set. This is a ship that is meant to function at pirate faction meta level and is attainable at less risk than other pirate faction Battleships because of being available in high sec, which warrants the step up in LP cost. If it turns out that price is so prohibitive that people can't justify using the Nestor as much as we would want we can investigate ways to make it more attractive or make it easier to get, but hopefully that won't be necessary.




    The problem is the usefullness of the Frigate and the Cruiser.

    these will stay expensive, there for the LP price needs to justify the number of of cruisers I can buy/sell instead of that one battleship.

    And at this point few people will throw away their profit on cruisers and Frigates to a battleship with very limited options.
    Madbuster73
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #1789 - 2014-01-08 12:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Madbuster73
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys, sorry for the winter break in communication. Hope you all had a good holiday!

    I've been catching up a bit here and I'll try to comment on some of what I'm seeing.

    There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set. This is a ship that is meant to function at pirate faction meta level and is attainable at less risk than other pirate faction Battleships because of being available in high sec, which warrants the step up in LP cost. If it turns out that price is so prohibitive that people can't justify using the Nestor as much as we would want we can investigate ways to make it more attractive or make it easier to get, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

    As far as the ship design itself, everyone is trying to tug it in a direction that matches their ideal application, which makes sense considering that for most people some ship traits won't be useful due to their diverse nature. I want to reiterate that removing some of these smaller traits wouldn't necessarily mean we could suddenly add something else. The exploration bonuses are a good example. Many people won't use the hacking or probing bonus, but in some cases they will add nice options. For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents. These bonuses come cheap in terms of balance and characterize the Sisters of EVE ships as a whole so we like including them, but don't let that make you think they are there in place of something more focused and powerful.

    Specifically, there are suggestions relating to:
  • Smartbomb bonuses - I think this would be fun to get in somewhere but the Nestor is definitely not the right place
  • More damage - it already has huge damage potential because of being drone bonused with 5 turrets, and pure tank and gank is not meant to be it's strong point.
  • More tank - it is extremely important that it can tank well enough to run most PVE content, if this isn't the case we would make adjustments but we don't expect that to be a problem. Outside of that, just like with damage, it isn't meant to be overly strong in this area.
  • Covert cloaking - we discussed this extensively and ultimately agreed that it is both too powerful, and also should belong on a tech 2 battleship before a pirate faction if it were to happen.
  • Black ops bridging - again, power level is a big concern here. We already upped the amount of damage you can bring through covert bridges with the Stratios and don't want to extend that even further. It's possible that if Black Ops had been rebalanced before the Nestor went in we may have been more likely to echo some Black Ops function, but without knowing how that rebalance will pan out exactly we didn't want to go that direction at this time.
  • MJDs - Marauders just picked up a focus on MJDs and it would be strange to do the same with the Nestor.
  • Ship maintenance arrays - we talked about this a lot as well but the new personal depots cover this function nicely without ever leading to afk gameplay (which would be a risk if it was on the Nestor)

    • After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility.

    I'll be reading further discussion and will keep you updated on any future changes, hope this answered some of your questions.

    edit: The SMA on Singularity is an error (someone tried to sneak it on while I was away for vacation I guess) and it will be removed before release.




    CCP Rise, Have you been living under a rock?

    Quote:
    For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents.


    Small gangs with Battleships???? I Havent seen that since 2009
    That is just a shiny killmail waiting to happen. Nobody in their right mind will fly this in small gang.
    Battleships in general are only being used nowadays in 0.0 blob-warfare.
    Savira Terrant
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1790 - 2014-01-08 12:43:39 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Lots and lots that was already mentioned by CCP before, just repeating the same old without actually adding any new argument.



    Well, it was you tugging it in the direction of a exploration battleship, before we even heard about a sisters battleship is in the works, by emphasising these roles on the frigate and cruiser. Then it was in the works and you wanted a scanning and hacking bonus on the hull, further emphasising it's role on exploration. We just tried to tell you how to make it actually useful for this role, nothing more.

    Another few points.

    1. I argued before that a faction ship -pirate or not - should not be based on the SoCT design philosophy in the first place.
    2. I argued before that this is the wrong time to even consider implementing a SOE battleship - since BO and pirate ships need rebalancing first - CCP is falling back into their habit of more bling instead of healthy game mechanics/balance just on a smaller scale.
    3. I argued before that a logistics battleship (espescially with the Nestors stats) is not a remotely good alternative to Logistics cruisers in any case.
    4. You say we tug it in a direction we want this ship, but you do the same thing yourself, by tugging it in the direction of a more survivable Dominix with less damage and damage application and then add arbitrary bonuses noone would ever make use of on a battleship.
    5. We did not have any questions at all, but disagreed with the overall design philosophy of this piece of garbage and seeing that you did not reconsider this at all really makes me wonder, why Team Game of Drones even makes feedback threads these days.

    Can someone please tell me why I still waste so much of my time in the balancing threads by Fozzie and Rise? Shouldn't I know better by now? Roll

    .
    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #1791 - 2014-01-08 13:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Rise
    Quote:
    An example of this broken market is the fact that we don't see any navy drakes being flown.

    Why?


    A lot of what you're saying is true but this is the part that isn't. Navy Drakes are being flown. Yesterday Navy Drakes made about 5000 gate jumps, which is around 15% of the jumps made by normal Drakes and around double the jumps made by Navy Caracals.

    You're right that the price for Nestor's will be influenced by the demand for the LP as a whole rather than the demand for this ship in particular, which might mean the price goes higher than the ship would sell for in an isolated market, but that doesn't mean no one will want to pay for it at the price governed by sisters LP. Your example proves this. Even though you think a Navy Drake is only worth 100mil, there are many orders being filled at around 180 because that is the price dictated by Caldari Navy LP. This price cuts out some potential buyers who would have thought it was worthwhile at 100 or 150, but it doesn't cut out the entire demand.

    What we would want to watch with the Nestor (or any other ship) is that the ship isn't so far under-value that almost no one wants to pay for it. If that was the case we would need to make changes to affect demand or affect the cost.

    @ccp_rise
    Mournful Conciousness
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #1792 - 2014-01-08 13:50:12 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Quote:
    An example of this broken market is the fact that we don't see any navy drakes being flown.

    Why?


    A lot of what you're saying is true but this is the part that isn't. Navy Drakes are being flown. Yesterday Navy Drakes made about 5000 gate jumps, which is around 15% of the jumps made by normal Drakes and around double the jumps made by Navy Caracals.

    You're right that the price for Nestor's will be influenced by the demand for the LP as a whole rather than the demand for this ship in particular, which might mean the price goes higher than the ship would sell for in an isolated market, but that doesn't mean no one will want to pay for it at the price governed by sisters LP. Your example proves this. Even though you think a Navy Drake is only worth 100mil, there are many orders being filled at around 180 because that is the price dictated by Caldari Navy LP. This price cuts out some potential buyers who would have thought it was worthwhile at 100 or 150, but it doesn't cut out the entire demand.

    What we would want to watch with the Nestor (or any other ship) is that the ship isn't so far under-value that almost no one wants to pay for it. If that was the case we would need to make changes to affect demand or affect the cost.


    Thanks for the reply.

    I'd be interested to see the numbers you have access to. Are they available?

    Perhaps there is some irrational kudos attached to being in a navy drake for some players, in the same way that occasionally one gets lucky and breaks open a ship (irrationally) fitted with navy guns.

    Have you guys considered letting LP costs become market-driven rather than fixed (and indeed mission payouts)? I think that if you did this you would finally break the eve market free of unintentional price-fixing. The market would then give you a great deal more information than it does now as to what really works for people.

    This would provide better data that could drive the very welcome rebalancing efforts.

    Embers Children is recruiting carefully selected pilots who like wormholes, green killboards and the sweet taste of tears. You can convo me in game or join the chat "TOHA Lounge".
    Steph Livingston
    Neko's Blanket
    #1793 - 2014-01-08 13:52:47 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:


    As far as the ship design itself, everyone is trying to tug it in a direction that matches their ideal application, which makes sense considering that for most people some ship traits won't be useful due to their diverse nature. I want to reiterate that removing some of these smaller traits wouldn't necessarily mean we could suddenly add something else. The exploration bonuses are a good example. Many people won't use the hacking or probing bonus, but in some cases they will add nice options. For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents. These bonuses come cheap in terms of balance and characterize the Sisters of EVE ships as a whole so we like including them, but don't let that make you think they are there in place of something more focused and powerful.

    **SNIP**

    After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility


    Even though it seems like some people want to push the Nestor in a certain direction, like the Covert Ops cloak, many people are just concerned about how relevant the bonuses are. Having a diverse focus is one thing, having bonuses that MAYBE 5% of people would use... that's another.

    With the laser optimal range, armor strength and drone boost bonuses shared among the entire line, I'm not sure the hacking/relic bonuses are worth pushing. As it's been said before, why take a battleship into sites that require you to run between locations, when you don't need the firepower and a smaller ship moves quicker?

    If you want to stick to the theme / characteristics for SoE, why not just increase the warp speed or base max velocity to represent the ability to respond to crafts in distress, or lower the signature radius to represent the Sister's desire to avoid conflict.

    I like that there SoE ships all share the theme of exploration, but I just don't think giving them all the same general bonuses is the way to go. There's more to exploration, and assistance, then opening up data and relic sites.
    Cassius Invictus
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1794 - 2014-01-08 14:21:53 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys, sorry for the winter break in communication. Hope you all had a good holiday!

    I've been catching up a bit here and I'll try to comment on some of what I'm seeing.

    There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set. This is a ship that is meant to function at pirate faction meta level and is attainable at less risk than other pirate faction Battleships because of being available in high sec, which warrants the step up in LP cost. If it turns out that price is so prohibitive that people can't justify using the Nestor as much as we would want we can investigate ways to make it more attractive or make it easier to get, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

    As far as the ship design itself, everyone is trying to tug it in a direction that matches their ideal application, which makes sense considering that for most people some ship traits won't be useful due to their diverse nature. I want to reiterate that removing some of these smaller traits wouldn't necessarily mean we could suddenly add something else. The exploration bonuses are a good example. Many people won't use the hacking or probing bonus, but in some cases they will add nice options. For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents. These bonuses come cheap in terms of balance and characterize the Sisters of EVE ships as a whole so we like including them, but don't let that make you think they are there in place of something more focused and powerful.

    Specifically, there are suggestions relating to:
  • Smartbomb bonuses - I think this would be fun to get in somewhere but the Nestor is definitely not the right place
  • More damage - it already has huge damage potential because of being drone bonused with 5 turrets, and pure tank and gank is not meant to be it's strong point.
  • More tank - it is extremely important that it can tank well enough to run most PVE content, if this isn't the case we would make adjustments but we don't expect that to be a problem. Outside of that, just like with damage, it isn't meant to be overly strong in this area.
  • Covert cloaking - we discussed this extensively and ultimately agreed that it is both too powerful, and also should belong on a tech 2 battleship before a pirate faction if it were to happen.
  • Black ops bridging - again, power level is a big concern here. We already upped the amount of damage you can bring through covert bridges with the Stratios and don't want to extend that even further. It's possible that if Black Ops had been rebalanced before the Nestor went in we may have been more likely to echo some Black Ops function, but without knowing how that rebalance will pan out exactly we didn't want to go that direction at this time.
  • MJDs - Marauders just picked up a focus on MJDs and it would be strange to do the same with the Nestor.
  • Ship maintenance arrays - we talked about this a lot as well but the new personal depots cover this function nicely without ever leading to afk gameplay (which would be a risk if it was on the Nestor)

    • After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility.

    I'll be reading further discussion and will keep you updated on any future changes, hope this answered some of your questions.

    edit: The SMA on Singularity is an error (someone tried to sneak it on while I was away for vacation I guess) and it will be removed before release.


    Thx for your response CCP Rise. One question - is the model itself final Big smile?
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1795 - 2014-01-08 14:28:26 UTC
    Rise, this ship doesn't have ANY role. It's not good enough at any of its myriad of roles to justify its cost, and the roles themselves don't complement each other.

    "Everyone is trying to tug it in a direction" well duh. It needs a direction. Right now it has none. And as such it will be useless. Nothing about this ship isn't done better by another ship.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    James Amril-Kesh
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #1796 - 2014-01-08 14:30:15 UTC
    Glad to see you glossing over feedback and explaining it away though.

    Enjoying the rain today? ;)
    Owen Levanth
    Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
    #1797 - 2014-01-08 14:37:56 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    Hi guys, sorry for the winter break in communication. Hope you all had a good holiday!

    I've been catching up a bit here and I'll try to comment on some of what I'm seeing.

    There's a lot of concern about the price, which is completely understandable as it will be rather expensive at current SOE LP value, but that cost is controlled by the market and doesn't affect the thinking behind the LP price that we set. This is a ship that is meant to function at pirate faction meta level and is attainable at less risk than other pirate faction Battleships because of being available in high sec, which warrants the step up in LP cost. If it turns out that price is so prohibitive that people can't justify using the Nestor as much as we would want we can investigate ways to make it more attractive or make it easier to get, but hopefully that won't be necessary.

    As far as the ship design itself, everyone is trying to tug it in a direction that matches their ideal application, which makes sense considering that for most people some ship traits won't be useful due to their diverse nature. I want to reiterate that removing some of these smaller traits wouldn't necessarily mean we could suddenly add something else. The exploration bonuses are a good example. Many people won't use the hacking or probing bonus, but in some cases they will add nice options. For instance, a small PVP group might love to take advantage of the probing bonus for getting quicker results on enemy snipers or safed up opponents. These bonuses come cheap in terms of balance and characterize the Sisters of EVE ships as a whole so we like including them, but don't let that make you think they are there in place of something more focused and powerful.

    Specifically, there are suggestions relating to:
  • Smartbomb bonuses - I think this would be fun to get in somewhere but the Nestor is definitely not the right place
  • More damage - it already has huge damage potential because of being drone bonused with 5 turrets, and pure tank and gank is not meant to be it's strong point.
  • More tank - it is extremely important that it can tank well enough to run most PVE content, if this isn't the case we would make adjustments but we don't expect that to be a problem. Outside of that, just like with damage, it isn't meant to be overly strong in this area.
  • Covert cloaking - we discussed this extensively and ultimately agreed that it is both too powerful, and also should belong on a tech 2 battleship before a pirate faction if it were to happen.
  • Black ops bridging - again, power level is a big concern here. We already upped the amount of damage you can bring through covert bridges with the Stratios and don't want to extend that even further. It's possible that if Black Ops had been rebalanced before the Nestor went in we may have been more likely to echo some Black Ops function, but without knowing how that rebalance will pan out exactly we didn't want to go that direction at this time.
  • MJDs - Marauders just picked up a focus on MJDs and it would be strange to do the same with the Nestor.
  • Ship maintenance arrays - we talked about this a lot as well but the new personal depots cover this function nicely without ever leading to afk gameplay (which would be a risk if it was on the Nestor)

    • After going over a lot of these options in detail (both initially and after reading feedback), we feel happy with the decision to go with a focus in logistics, low mass, and general versatility.

    I'll be reading further discussion and will keep you updated on any future changes, hope this answered some of your questions.

    edit: The SMA on Singularity is an error (someone tried to sneak it on while I was away for vacation I guess) and it will be removed before release.


    What about the Black ops cloak bonus then? The Nestor already is incredibly slow, so with at least a speed bonus for cloaking, people could actually cloak up in an emergency and try to run away. It's less OP than a covert-ops cloak, too.

    The rest is OK.

    That said, if you really bring the covert-ops cloak to a T2 battleship, please tell us as soon as possible! I would remake my entire skillplan just to get one. Big smile
    Kagura Nikon
    Native Freshfood
    Minmatar Republic
    #1798 - 2014-01-08 14:38:13 UTC
    Mournful Conciousness wrote:
    (using unintentional double post to provide an example)

    An example of this broken market is the fact that we don't see any navy drakes being flown.

    Why?

    The LP cost of a navy drake is a fixed amount, which means that the navy drake's prices is set by the desirability of every other Caldari faction item rather than the desirability of the ship itself. Further, since players are free to mission for whomever they choose, the price of a Navy Drake (the least desirable navy BC) is actually set by the desirability of the most desirable navy faction items, such as navy invulnerability fields, navy nano membranes, navy armour repairers, navy ammo of all kinds and POS fuel.

    Thus the incentive to produce a Navy drake is zero since to be desirable the ship needs to command a price of roughly half of the price dictated by the market price of the component LPs. "roughly half" is my mental calculation of what I would pay for one. That is to say, for me the clearing price of a Navy Drake is about ISK100m at best.

    Another example would be navy guns and missile launchers. The utility value is marginally better than a meta-4 and worse than a T2, so the real market clearing price would be closer to ISK 2M than the ISK 70M dictated by the LP store.

    I could go on...



    Funny .. we kill almsot as many navy drakes as normal drakes.

    They are not rare at all. And I see far more fleet hurricanes than normal hurricanes (basically because the normal variant is so weak now).



    Surely there will be people using this battleship. Maybe not on Your metagame, but eve is nto only where you live. High sec mercs like us are used to seeing vindicators left and right. 1 bil price never seemed to be a deterrent for people wantign to use the most powerful weapons.

    Msot osf the price issue with LP stores woudl be fixed if the HORRIBLE tags were removed and all prices were in LP + Isk + base ship/module. Most peopel simply cannto be bothered to go for the tags and try to even get them on market. They simply expend their LP on the best "SIMPLE to FULLFILL" option.

    "If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
    CCP Rise
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #1799 - 2014-01-08 14:44:15 UTC
    I can't really say anything about the art since I don't work on it. Personally, I think the art guys do amazing work and Nestor is no exception but it is of course very subjective.

    @ccp_rise
    Owen Levanth
    Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
    #1800 - 2014-01-08 14:55:31 UTC
    CCP Rise wrote:
    I can't really say anything about the art since I don't work on it. Personally, I think the art guys do amazing work and Nestor is no exception but it is of course very subjective.


    There is no problem with the way the Nestor looks, it's a very unique and nice looking ship. That said, it's also so slow it makes even an improved cloak useless: When cloaked the Nestor is almost immobile. And without any possibility to hide your expensive, clunky ship, it won't be used in exploration. The probing bonus maybe used instead in PVP, sure. But in its current version, you could easily take the bonus on virus strength away. No-one sane will take this ship close to a site were it could easily be tackled and killed by everyone.

    Hell, the ship is expensive enough I wouldn't even dare to use it in HighSec. If I ever am rich enough to waste my fake play money like this, I'll give them names like "Flying Space Coffin" or "Prime Target".