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Marauders....
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Novah Soul
#1 - 2014-01-07 02:42:01 UTC
I'm returning to the game after a short break and am about to start the train for a marauder - AWU V then lvl 5 in a racial BS is all I need. My problem stems from not knowing which one to get... Shocked

Right now I mission in high sec amarr space and am basically equally trained in all BS sized weaponry. Would I be correct in assuming the Paladin would be the better all-around choice, considering my location? I plan on training for all four eventually, so it's just getting that starting one that's a bit perplexing.

Thx in advance for any advice/comments.

A man is known by the quality of his friends. - Lex Luthor
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#2 - 2014-01-07 02:51:07 UTC
Depends on the tactic you would want to use. I've heard that the Paladin is awesome using a Micro Jump Drive to get range (100km) and then going into Bastion Mode (bonuses to tanking and weapons range) to snipe targets.

The Kronos doesn't have the same range as a Paladin, but can pump out more damage.

The Vargur can be made into a stationary, super tanking Macharial.

And the Golem can be made into a super tanking Navy Raven with full damage selection.

How did you Veterans start?
Sid Crash
#3 - 2014-01-07 06:18:33 UTC
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Vargur, a Paladin can get close to 100km optimal from its Mega Pulses with Scorch and will, because of that, do great damage all the way from 0 to 100km BUT It's only EM/thermal and in case of Scorch EM mostly. A Vargur can't compete, damage wise, at 50-100km with said Pally BUT it CAN select damage types, is a lot easier to fly due to zero cap use for the guns and it's much faster because it can get away with fitting an MWD.

Personally I'd probably go for the Vargur because of its versatility in damage types and ease of use, also because if you (have to) choose to live outside Amarr space for your PVE the Paladin is going to be a piece of crap.
Johobie
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2014-01-07 14:00:35 UTC
I fly a paladin and I dont even have a MJD fitted. For running lvl 4 missions, i just go into bastion mode and and wipe everything out. I use T2 Mega Pulse with Imperial Navy Multifrequency or Scorch Crystals, add a tracking computer and i'm able to rip anything apart within 100km. Personally i would like to see the Marauders lose the MJD and gain better drone capabilities. 5 light drones is pretty much a joke.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#5 - 2014-01-07 15:05:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Noxisia Arkana
There are a lot of discussions on this already. But you can get your 1x falloff with T2 blasters on kronos at 73km / 30 km (long range Null vs. Void). So, you do about 800 (says about 950 but that's at optimal) DPS out to 70ish km and 1300 (says 1425ish but that's optimal which is about 10km) below 30km. Armor tanked. Am I a liar? No, I pretty much have exclusively used a kronos to screw around with in HS for a while. I also have about 70 mil in gunnary implants (which does help).

Bring a mobile depot and refit some tank when the enemies close, or just use a MWD or MJD to get out to them. I also use my drones to salvage rather than contribute to DPS (after I drop a MTU) - when I'm missioning.

All the mauraders are a good choice. Pick one. I.E. the ship you enjoy fying is the best. I like how the kronos looks, but I'm certainly training a vargur.
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2014-01-07 17:20:34 UTC
golem for shield tank, paladin for armor tank.

other 2 are more difficult to use.

paladin is better overall.
Maxor Swift
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#7 - 2014-01-07 19:19:22 UTC
i still find that pirate battle ships have all the tank you need for Lvl 4s and about 50% more DPS.
Which is a real shame given the time to train a marauder i hoped that it would allow me to at least enjoy doing missions a bit more.

Then it might be just be the Golem thats a bit disappointing.

"What you talking about willis"
george harries
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2014-01-07 20:46:35 UTC
I currently mission in Amarr space also missioned in Minmatar space.....I've used a Golem in the past but more recently use a Mach, CNR and a Nightmare. I did love the Golem for the ability to tractor and salvage on the fly but there was a lot of micro management and volley counting - but torp explosions were great Smile however once the Noctis came out and I started using the Nightmare I stopped using it

I find the Nightmare is a lot quicker as the kills are 'instant' and keep a CNR on standby for certain missions where heavy ECM causes issues.


FWIW I'm looking to get a Paladin as the TD on some amarr missions in the past has been an absolute PITA and I found the CNR too slow compared to the Nightmare........so if you're happy armor tanking then Paladin is pretty good......whether a MJD is needed I'm not 100% convinced personally but I've yet to try it but I'll still keep my NM for things like Pirate Scarlet where I (used to ) one shot her and she would respawn in the next room - getting 2 x 5m isk bounties Lol ....but you do quite a bit of burning around and I suspect it might outperform the Paladin, but we'll see....variety makes it more fun imho...hope that's helpful
elise densi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-01-08 10:30:37 UTC
Removing the MJD bonus and adding more drone bandwith is and will be a very nice add
i fly paladin with beams and i haven no use for the mjd
To mare
Advanced Technology
#10 - 2014-01-08 11:15:43 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

fixed for you
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#11 - 2014-01-08 14:28:17 UTC
Maxor Swift wrote:
i still find that pirate battle ships have all the tank you need for Lvl 4s and about 50% more DPS.
Which is a real shame given the time to train a marauder i hoped that it would allow me to at least enjoy doing missions a bit more.

Then it might be just be the Golem thats a bit disappointing.



I've not found that to be the case. I have a Vindi that I don't use because it does much less damage even bling fit than a T2 maurader (the main difference is the maurader can basically use blasters like it would rails) - including the ability for the vindi to put out sentries.

Plus I end up making more cash by throwing out salvage drones and an MTU than I would on a vindi.
Sid Crash
#12 - 2014-01-08 17:18:17 UTC
To mare wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

fixed for you


You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#13 - 2014-01-08 17:32:45 UTC
Novah Soul wrote:
I'm returning to the game after a short break and am about to start the train for a marauder - AWU V then lvl 5 in a racial BS is all I need. My problem stems from not knowing which one to get... Shocked

Right now I mission in high sec amarr space and am basically equally trained in all BS sized weaponry. Would I be correct in assuming the Paladin would be the better all-around choice, considering my location? I plan on training for all four eventually, so it's just getting that starting one that's a bit perplexing.

Thx in advance for any advice/comments.



My advise is that its way easier to find a new agent in hisec than it is to train a second BS up to 5. Don't make your choice on the marauder alone, but consider also all the BS hulls it contributes to as well. Amarr BS 5 is arguably the least versatile of the BS skills to train (PVE-wise at least). Minmatar and caldari can choose the ammo for the rat for most of their ships, and despite the kronos being locked into kin/therm, gal BS 5 is also a huge step up on any of the drone BS, not to mention giving you access to the rattler, the mach, and the vindi, which are all fantastic and benefit greatly from gal BS 5.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2014-01-08 17:36:47 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
To mare wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

fixed for you


You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?


Umm. Current meta dictates cruise Golem. Which has no range issues and really doesn't require painters.
Kery Nysell
#15 - 2014-01-08 18:33:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Kery Nysell
The problem is not the Golem, it's the Torpedoes.

To get decent range with torps, you need rigs to boost they flight speed ... thus losing out on Rigor rigs and needing at least two Target Painter to do full damage to BCs and BSes (and not much to anything smaller).

If you fit Rigors, your torps have pathetic range.

Also, Tech 2 torps don't have a "Precision" variant, meaning you NEED to use Light Drones for frigate-killing, and with the current aggro mechanics in PvE, that's a lot more micromanagement.

Cruise Missiles, on the other hand, don't require a Target Painter (although one is still handy to one-volley BCs and Cruisers), have a Precision Tech 2 variant to deal with Frigate/Elite Frigates allowing you to use Salvage Drones while you clean everything, and don't have range issues.

I'm currently using Rigors on my Golem, but I'm thinking about swapping them for more damage rigs, to clean missions even faster.

PLEASE NOTE : I only do L4 missions in my Golem, for Incursions I'm usually in a Logistics cruiser, and I don't do lowsec/nullsec/wormholes.

...
Sid Crash
#16 - 2014-01-08 18:58:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Crash
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
To mare wrote:
Sid Crash wrote:
If you're in Amarr space you then either want to go for the Paladin or the Golem

fixed for you


You mean that Golem that has to perpetually get in range with its torps, that same Golem with 0% base EM resists and also that Golem that needs to cycle 2 painters (annoying as hell) to actually apply its dps, are we talking about the same Golem here?


Umm. Current meta dictates cruise Golem. Which has no range issues and really doesn't require painters.


Toying with that you're right, at least when you start using fury ammo.

When using T1 ammo it's still mostly in favour of the Vargur (up to 50km or so), with faction RF vs Fury the Golem pulls ahead at 33km. So while it all depends on what range you have to fight I'll concede that pure damage types with those bonuses and T2 rigors does quite well, even against BC. Against cruiser targets it starts to become terrible though and will have to switch ammo to not completely suck where the Vargur just keeps using base T1 ammo or RF and keeps on firing, mixing targets.

So the Vargur still is easier to use :P
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#17 - 2014-01-08 19:57:32 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:


Toying with that you're right, at least when you start using fury ammo.

When using T1 ammo it's still mostly in favour of the Vargur (up to 50km or so), with faction RF vs Fury the Golem pulls ahead at 33km. So while it all depends on what range you have to fight I'll concede that pure damage types with those bonuses and T2 rigors does quite well, even against BC. Against cruiser targets it starts to become terrible though and will have to switch ammo to not completely suck where the Vargur just keeps using base T1 ammo or RF and keeps on firing, mixing targets.

So the Vargur still is easier to use :P


IMO there's no reason to restrict your comparisons based on ammo type, at least when comparing missiles to guns. If we were comparing the golem to an AC mach, t1 ammo vs fury cruise would be a perfectly good comparison. This is primarily because ships that use fury anything will be using fury 90% of the time and ignore ammo price as a consideration, while a gunship will use t1 or faction ammo 95% of the time, with price as the only consideration, and t2 being situational (scorch aside).

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sid Crash
#18 - 2014-01-08 20:05:42 UTC
In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#19 - 2014-01-08 20:56:54 UTC
Sid Crash wrote:
In this situation it does because the difference between T1 and Faction turret ammo is a plain damage increase for increased cost, but if you go from T1 to Fury ammo (which is needed to get the good dps numbers on that Golem, without fury it's mediocre) you also get damage application differences to a point when you do 220 or so to a base speed cruiser.

The golem NEEDS fury to shine but it also restricts it in regards to target type, so unless one agrees to wasting lots of time doing low dps to cruisers, or decides to take out target based on size (BS/BC first) and then switch ammo either way you're wasting time. A turret ship like the Vargur does not have to make choices like that, it just keeps firing its ammo (be it T1 or faction) regardless of the target.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the distinct impression that a cruise golem that has to switch to precisions for npc crusiers is heavily in the "doing it wrong" category.

That said when I saw you comparing t1 ammo golem to t1 ammo vargur, I assumed you were making general performance comparisons based on ammo price, rather than splitting their performance into two scenarios based on target type (you said t1 and not precision, which is how I would compare their performance on small targets).

Raw dps numbers vs things smaller than NPC battleships are more or less irrelevant as the time-to-kill is heavily discretized by volley size and application. Missile ships having a disadvantage is just part of the package. Hence I compare fury performance to t1 or faction performance and just accept the application issues of missiles to be part of the package. Assuming a ship meets a sufficient application threshold for small targets, I tend to base my assessment entirely on performance vs battleships.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#20 - 2014-01-08 21:05:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Bertrand Butler
You cannot pay 1billion isk for a hull that has half the ammo consumption of its relatives, fit T2 guns/launchers and then argue about ammo cost for missioning. It does not make sense. T2 or faction ammo is the only option for these hulls.
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